The Lack of engine breaking

[ChicoMaloXD]

Who in the right mind would let his engine take a brake? If you let your engine take a bake you will lose the race. That's why PD don't put those things in the game...

 

[SavageEvil]

There is engine braking but when using the DS3 it's very muted, if you notice that the throttle is stalled during shift up and down in every mode except when using a wheel with full manual and clutch. PD for some reason didn't want to make the game too hard as the way some people like the shift while turning corners and that greatly upsets cars IRL when done incorrectly, but you use a wheel and clutch then it's a different story.

 

[OK8]

Who in the right mind would let his engine take a brake? If you let your engine take a bake you will lose the race. That's why PD don't put those things in the game...

But what if your engine takes a break to bake a cake?

Is the "auto blip " you speak of whilst using a ds3 or a proper wheel? I use g25 and there is no "auto blip" unless i instigate it.

I use g25 and with the paddles you get an auto blip as well as with ds3. When you're using the clutch you get none of that.

Sometimes when racing fast cars (ZR1 etc) the game wont let you heel -toe back to 2nd (doesnt like being rushed????) like the shifter is broken which sucks big time.

I don't understand what you mean by "wont let you heel -toe back to 2nd" I haven't had any such problems ever. Changing from 1st to 2nd at the start is sometimes too hard but you have to wait a second before you shift. Downshifting has never been a problem, so are you sure your shifter isn't really broken?

I played Live For Speed (with ****** generic cars and no RL tracks:tdown against friends online religiously time after time just because it felt real.......but i find GT5's lack of low speed physics, collision physics and unrealistic mechanics (eg engine braking, shifting feel, clutch actuation etc) below par.

I played live for speed for many years also and I admit gt5 is missing a couple things (like tyre flexing) but overall try a 500pp car on the nurburgring with sports hard and soon you'll forget all about it. I also don't understand what you mean by low speed physics? I haven't noticed any flaws.

What the engine braking and other issues such as terrible under steer and tire compounds that not even drive-able boils down to is bad physics.

What tyre compounds are undrivable?

Perfect example of engine braking. Camaro SS RM, red line in second then shift to first without hitting breaks and see how long the car keeps it's speed.

Yes. When you hit the redline the forces that are going on inside your engine and gearbox aren't transferred to the wheels for some idiotic reason. Shift it to first at 200km/h and all you get is the engine bouncing on the rev limiter and the car coasting to a halt though in real life the engine would over rev, explode or the very least you'd lose traction and make the car very unstable.

PD should change it so that downshifting without a blip (shifting with clutch but not doing heel and toe) would make the car more unstable than it does now. Noobs who can't do heel and toe and don't want to learn could use the paddles or h-shifter but in auto clutch mode.

 

[Duck]

Easy, if you doubt it try comparing speed loss in N and with any gear selected.

And, please, correct thread title in 'Go Advanced' mode.

 

[daan]

Wow I used the wrong word the world is going to explode I know every single one of you are all perfect and never do anything wrong

Lose the attitude. It was your error, not ours. Engine breaking is an entirely different thing to engine braking and, as we're not mind readers, how are we supposed to know what you mean if you don't get it right? 💡

 

[CSLACR]

But what if your engine takes a break to bake a cake?

Made the whole thread worth it.

What the engine braking and other issues such as terrible under steer and tire compounds that not even drive-able boils down to is bad physics. I don't understand why they could adapt and improve the driving physics from GT4. There is a lot of things that don't work, or hardly work in this game. I.E. trans gear ratio adjustment, or lack of it.

I like the GT4 format for tuning better and the functionality of having pre-sets. I would have like to see 300 premium cars and better physics, I'd give up go karts and N.A.S.C.A.R to get back to a driving simulator, where you can win prize cars and money more than once, and sell cars to gain cash.

Perfect example of engine braking. Camaro SS RM, red line in second then shift to first without hitting breaks and see how long the car keeps it's speed.

thanks for letting me vent....

If you think GT4 had better engine braking, you're wrong.
If you think GT4 had better physics, you've no idea how a car is supposed to handle.

I'm not about to defend GT5's physics as "great" but they're by far the best in any GT game - ever.

Transmission? It's customization is exactly the same way as it was in GT4.
Un-driveable tires? No, you need to slow down when you're on comfort tires.

NFS Carbon might suit you're liking for physics and tires....

 

[Griffith500]

I haven't noticed that it's especially weak, but if it is, it's probably for the same reason that low-powered cars are so damned slow off the line: inertia.

If the engine and drivetrain (is it even modeled?) inertia are too high, then the car will take too long to accelerate because more energy is having to be put into the rotating parts just to get the engine speed up, before any torque is transmitted to the road. Similarly, more energy will be taken from this inertia before the car will slow down again. This also means the brakes are having to work harder.

So there are still some very basic physics issues in the game.

 

[CSLACR]

I haven't noticed that it's especially weak, but if it is, it's probably for the same reason that low-powered cars are so damned slow off the line: inertia.

If the engine and drivetrain (is it even modeled?) inertia are too high, then the car will take too long to accelerate because more energy is having to be put into the rotating parts just to get the engine speed up, before any torque is transmitted to the road. Similarly, more energy will be taken from this inertia before the car will slow down again. This also means the brakes are having to work harder.

So there are still some very basic physics issues in the game.

I've yet to see evidence there's a lack of engine braking.

It seems less dramatic in GT5 the in real life, yes.

*But what doesn't?*

 

[shirakawaa]

About engine braking, there are several to take into accout:

- Many cars in GT5 have a too high, incorrectly modeled engine and transmission inertia (as mentioned by Griffith500) which makes engine response slower than in real life.

- The difference between engine types/era is not modeled at all in GT5. In general, most older carburated engines in real life reacted immediately to the driver's input. Newer engines with electronic fuel injection but mechanical throttle linkage react less quickly. The latest street legal engines with strict emission controls and electronically controlled fuel injection and throttle control should be the slowest reacting ones. Race cars with eletronic throttle control and fuel injection don't have in real life limits due to emission control, ECU processing power, throttle servomechanism speed (in opening/closing throttle valves). By the way, this could be an idea for PD, who could include a tuning part to increase engine response.

- When using a DS3, there's some sort of "buffer" when lifting off the throttle quickly. This "buffer" makes engine response slower and easier to control and make engine braking appear weaker than it should.

* * *

Anyway, in general discussing about this further reinforces my opinon that GT5 physics need extensive improvements. Maybe I should open a thread about general physics issues and flaws in GT5.

 

[Corpsey]

I have tested and decided that there is engine brake.

On SSR7, accelerating to 200 kph, and then gearing down gear by gear I made it to the first bend.

Going to 200 kph and then staying in forth and coasting I made it all the way to the ramp, and proceeded half way up it before coming to a stop.

 

[trk29]

But what if your engine takes a break to bake a cake?

I liked that:tup:

I don't understand what you mean by "wont let you heel -toe back to 2nd" I haven't had any such problems ever. Changing from 1st to 2nd at the start is sometimes too hard but you have to wait a second before you shift. Downshifting has never been a problem, so are you sure your shifter isn't really broken?

Sometimes when going from third into second doing heel to toe I have noticed this too. Not as bad and doesn't happen as much.

 

[Big Ron]

GT5 has no good engine brake physics. You can´t lock your wheels while shifting down too fast nor loosing the rear end while the torque by the engine brake force is too high or damaging the engine with rpms at the limiter when activating mechanical damage.

If you try to shift down rapidly at high speed, the RPM needle just slams into the limiter, but your car is just rolling straight ahead.

It needs much improvement to get it much more comprehensible.

 

[trk29]

If you try to shift down rapidly at high speed, the RPM needle just slams into the limiter, but your car is just rolling straight ahead.

Do this in a curve with a clutch and tell me you keep going without spinning out.

 

[shirakawaa]

GT5 has no good engine brake physics. You can´t lock your wheels while shifting down too fast nor loosing the rear end whild the torque by the engine brake force is too high or damaging the engine with rpms at the limiter when activating mechanical damage.

If you try to shift down rapidly at high speed, you RPM needle just slams to the limiter, but your car is rolling straight ahead.

It needs much improvement to get it much more comprehensible.

A reason for that is also that GT5 always perfectly rev-matches each gear shift. Auto-blip (especially) and auto-clutch during gearshifts should be optionally selectable driving assists in my opinion, like in many pc simulators.

Even just offering an "auto-blip" assist removal option would add a completely new challenge and realism even for DS3 users. Users would have to lift off throttle while shifting up and give the right amount of throttle while shifting down in order to avoid loss of control. But I think this goes over the scope of the engine braking discussion.

By the way, increasing engine compression by tuning (as supposedly happens when performing NA tuning) should increase engine braking. On the other side, turbo kits which decrease engine compression, should also decrease engine braking. Other modifications or engine types can affect engine braking too. This is not simulated in GT5.

 

[Big Ron]

Do this in a curve with a clutch and tell me you keep going without spinning out.

I have no clutch pedal to do this. My DFP just supports throttle and brake and the sequential shift stick.

In PC simulators the engine brake physics works fine without using manual clutch, so the automatic clutch shouldn´t justify the low engine brake force.

 

[trk29]

I have no clutch pedal to do this. My DFP just supports throttle and brake and the sequential shift stick.

In PC simulators the engine brake physics works fine without using manual clutch, so the automatic clutch shouldn´t justify the low engine brake force.

I agree. I don't think the engine braking is any different between both wheels but the clutch does add a bit more realism to the shifting in the game. And dumping the clutch or missing a gear is great in the game.

 

[OK8]

By the way, this could be an idea for PD, who could include a tuning part to increase engine response.

There are several. Read the descriptions of the parts and you'll find many of them affect engine response.

Sometimes when going from third into second doing heel to toe I have noticed this too. Not as bad and doesn't happen as much.

I've had this happen sometimes too but I've always thought it's because I didn't push the clutch properly in the mids of going from corner to corner. After doing this for a while I've found it's surprisingly easy to go fishing for 2nd in the middle of a corner. When I finally get second in I automatically blip the throttle before releasing the clutch to not lose the rear end in the middle of the corner.

A reason for that is also that GT5 always perfectly rev-matches each gear shift. Auto-blip (especially) and auto-clutch during gearshifts should be optionally selectable driving assists in my opinion, like in many pc simulators.

Even just offering an "auto-blip" assist removal option would add a completely new challenge and realism even for DS3 users. Users would have to lift off throttle while shifting up and give the right amount of throttle while shifting down in order to avoid loss of control. But I think this goes over the scope of the engine braking discussion.

Nice idea, would really make this more a simulator, BUT since people are so reluctant to drive even without ABS I doubt anyone would drive without auto-blip (heck, most ds3 drivers can't even drive manual).

 

[shirakawaa]

There are several. Read the descriptions of the parts and you'll find many of them affect engine response.

That is what the description states. That is, it might have been "implemented" only there and not actually in-game. I haven't seen such modifications to actually affect engine response, which appears to be the same for all cars (except on turbocharged ones, which is largely depending on turbo boost). However, I have to admit that I haven't performed specific tests in order to check out this with certainty.

Nice idea, would really make this more a simulator, BUT since people are so reluctant to drive even without ABS I doubt anyone would drive without auto-blip (heck, most ds3 drivers can't even drive manual).

I think it would be far easier to drive competively without the auto-blip than without the ABS in GT5. The reason is that a very precise control and feedback are needed with brakes in order to not lock them, and that the transition between a locked and a not locked tire is quick and often unpredictable or difficult to calculate (due to aerodynamics, load, cornering, road and tire conditions, etc).

Manual rev-matching gear changes without an auto-blip assist doesn't require a very precise throttle control. Also there are many less variables to take into account than when avoiding tire locking while braking without ABS.

 

[OK8]

That is what the description states. That is, it might have been "implemented" only there and not actually in-game.

Atleast flywheel and clutch affect it (or maybe it only feels like it since the new clutch makes shifting much faster... well) and exhaust manifold says it improves it but I haven't noticed much.

Anyway when I'm tuning a car I always buy all the response improving parts and atleast the placebo works.

 

[mikekhel30]

I know this will sound very dumb from you guys, but wth is auto-blip?

 

[shirakawaa]

I know this will sound very dumb from you guys, but wth is auto-blip?

A driving assist which during gearshifts does automatically the rev-matching work (by either "blipping" the throttle during downshifts, or disabling throttle user control during upshifts). On many PC driving simulators it can be disabled. In GT5 it's always enabled and cannot be disabled, except when using the clutch on a clutch-equipped wheel/pedal set (that happens automatically as soon as the clutch control is manually engaged, and not with a menu option).

 

[Griffith500]

Atleast flywheel and clutch affect it (or maybe it only feels like it since the new clutch makes shifting much faster... well) and exhaust manifold says it improves it but I haven't noticed much.

Anyway when I'm tuning a car I always buy all the response improving parts and atleast the placebo works.

Flywheel has a small effect on the engine inertia. Clutch only affects gear changes by increasing the "friction" so as to increase the rate at which the engine speed is matched to the road speed (note that this is largely in one direction in the game, when it should work in both directions - this means the car doesn't accelerate much when the clutch is slipping) and can compound with the reduced inertia from the flywheel, although it is only small. Other mods appear to improve response simply because the engine performance (i.e. torque output) has been improved.

What is missing is the ability to improve throttle response alone by the methods that SHIRAKAWA Akira mentioned. These offer other improvements that may result in improved power etc., but the main one is the directness of the controls and the feeling of "get-up-and-go" which can be so important if only for the "sports driving feel" (heh, that sounds like it could have come from GT5.. )

A good example in the game is the way the stock Audi A3 3.2 seems to love to accelerate, and the peppiness after changing gear feels great. Many other cars, some of them faster, just feel lazy - including a car with the same engine, the Golf R32.

 

[mikekhel30]

A driving assist which during gearshifts does automatically the rev-matching work (by either "blipping" the throttle during downshifts, or disabling throttle user control during upshifts). On many PC driving simulators it can be disabled. In GT5 it's always enabled and cannot be disabled, except when using the clutch on a clutch-equipped wheel/pedal set (that happens automatically as soon as the clutch control is manually engaged, and not with a menu option).

Oh alright, thanks. I've been using my g27 ever since I started the game. That explains a lot why I didn't get what it really means.