The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

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We can hope, but it doesn't look good. Toyota's decision could also very well be a sign that they are pulling out at the end of 2013.

Either way, I feel sorry for Davidson, Sarrazin, and the entire team at TMG in Cologne. They are making things happen, but the suits in Tokyo are not taking this project seriously at all. 👎

I think it's more of a sign of going easy during 2013 because of the new 2014 regs. What better time to demonstrate hybrid tech in a rule set that looks very Group C-ish?
 
All Audi are any good at it beating privateers. 👎

They were thrashed by Peugeot in the ILMS and Toyota made them look silly in the WEC after Le Mans last year.

Neither team will invest much in this season if they hope to be able to live with Porsche next season.

All they care is about LeMans, they desing a car to win at LeMans at the compromise of every other race. Reason why I think they'll retire as soon as Porsche and others start to beat them regulary at LeMans.
 
Jav
All they care is about LeMans, they desing a car to win at LeMans at the compromise of every other race. Reason why I think they'll retire as soon as Porsche and others start to beat them regulary at LeMans.

Not sure if you're talking about Audi or Porsche.
They're both the same in that sense.

If Toyota stay, Le Mans in 2014 will be one to remember for sure.
 
You forgot to mention Wurz. Since Watching him lead that team, he has no doubt proven that he is a fantastic driver.

I meant in the #8 car. Wurz Lapierre and Nakajima drive the #7.

Disappointing from Toyota, once again. They won't win Le Mans and they won't win any championships. They are going to learn the hard way that you don't half ass against Audi in sportscars.

You should read the autosport article before saying things like this. As for winning the championship, the highest scoring factory car counts towards the finished total 💡, that means Toyota can still win with only one car. Oh, and guess what? Even DNF's at LeMans and Bahrain, and DNS at Sebring and Spa, Toyota's #7 still placed 3rd in the championship. :ouch:

We can hope, but it doesn't look good. Toyota's decision could also very well be a sign that they are pulling out at the end of 2013.

Either way, I feel sorry for Davidson, Sarrazin, and the entire team at TMG in Cologne. They are making things happen, but the suits in Tokyo are not taking this project seriously at all. 👎

Toyota's drivers seem to disagree with what you're saying. Wurz expects Toyota to be there in 2014, he even has made tweets talking about Porsche and Audi will be fighting for the remaining podium position- as if he's laying hints that there will be two Toyota's in 2014. Akio Toyoda (Toyota's CEO) waived the flag at LeMans last year, and was present at Fuji's WEC round. You don't know what you're talking about.
 
You should read the autosport article before saying things like this. As for winning the championship, the highest scoring factory car counts towards the finished total 💡, that means Toyota can still win with only one car. Oh, and guess what? Even DNF's at LeMans and Bahrain, and DNS at Sebring and Spa, Toyota's #7 still placed 3rd in the championship. :ouch:

The odds still aren't in their favor. 1 or 2 Toyotas vs. 3 Audis. There's strength in numbers.
 
The odds still aren't in their favor. 1 or 2 Toyotas vs. 3 Audis. There's strength in numbers.

Yet the 2nd half of the WEC had swung completely the opposite direction of that. They have proven (at least outside of Le Mans) that they didn't need numbers to best Audi.
 
Yet the 2nd half of the WEC had swung completely the opposite direction of that. They have proven (at least outside of Le Mans) that they didn't need numbers to best Audi.

Yes, but AUDI DOESN'T CARE about anything that ins't LE MANS. They built the R18 to win at LE MANS. Nothing else matters to them. They want Le Mans wins.
 
The odds still aren't in their favor. 1 or 2 Toyotas vs. 3 Audis. There's strength in numbers.

Tell that to Peugeot when all their engines went boom :p.

You only "need" 1 car to win, even team orders mean little. Sure having more cars increases your chances in the case of reliability...but each individual car is no more or less likely to win.
 
...And why are we suggesting Porsche will blow everything else away at Le Mans in 2014?

Peugeot came with a faster car at Le Mans from the start of the project, yet during the 5 years they've been at Le Mans, they've only managed to win once. Even the year they won was probably Audi's worst year since they started with the R8 back in 2000.

I don't see why we would judge Audi and Toyota already as being inferior to Porsche in 2014.
 
Yes, but AUDI DOESN'T CARE about anything that ins't LE MANS. They built the R18 to win at LE MANS. Nothing else matters to them. They want Le Mans wins.

And if they lose at Le Mans and win everywhere else what then? Have they changed their minds and suddenly want to win a Championship?

Did you even watch Le Mans 2012? They did everything they could to throw the race away. I've never seen a more incompetent team or performance than Audi last year.

Three races they had headlight problems. THREE. That would happen once and never again for a team that know what is was doing.
 
All Audi are any good at it beating privateers. 👎

They were thrashed by Peugeot in the ILMS and Toyota made them look silly in the WEC after Le Mans last year.

Neither team will invest much in this season if they hope to be able to live with Porsche next season.
Audi don't really care much for anything outside Le Mans. That's were they dominate. Audi aren't brilliant or anything like that, but they outspend everyone. Audi outspends the competition and benefits from not only a fast car, but a well built reliable one as well, which counts for a lot. Peugeot was usually faster, but only won 1 Le Mans in 5 years competing. Underestimate Audi at your own peril.
You should read the autosport article before saying things like this. As for winning the championship, the highest scoring factory car counts towards the finished total 💡, that means Toyota can still win with only one car. Oh, and guess what? Even DNF's at LeMans and Bahrain, and DNS at Sebring and Spa, Toyota's #7 still placed 3rd in the championship. :ouch:
Third in the driver's cup, but well behind the top 2 Audis. Is finishing ahead of privateers that you were multiple seconds faster than, even with 2 DNS, really an accomplishment?

Nevertheless, I would agree they have a shot in the drivers championship. It's each car vs each car, and anything can happen there. But in the manufacturers cup, there is strength in numbers and Audi will have a huge edge. From Silverstone to Shanghai, even though Toyota won more races, Audi earned more points because of their reliability and Toyota's DNF in Bahrain. That's the thing, with one car, one little thing can happen and you are out or way behind and your rival will cruise home for a victory. If Toyota has a couple "Bahrains" during the season, unless they are much better than Audi everywhere else, they will lose the championship.
Toyota's drivers seem to disagree with what you're saying. Wurz expects Toyota to be there in 2014, he even has made tweets talking about Porsche and Audi will be fighting for the remaining podium position- as if he's laying hints that there will be two Toyota's in 2014. Akio Toyoda (Toyota's CEO) waived the flag at LeMans last year, and was present at Fuji's WEC round. You don't know what you're talking about.
They are all being publicly hopeful, as the racing personnel should be. But they were also publicly hopeful for 3 cars at Le Mans this year and 2 cars in the WEC, but we all know how that turned out. TMG and Toyoda could be as committed as possible, but if the board decides there is not enough benefit in continuing the program, when the cost outweighs the rewards, they will cut the tap and there is nothing Toyoda or TMG will be able to do about it.

They could be saving money to develop 2014's car, but that's just the optimist's view. The cost of running a second or third car is near negligible beside the high costs of R&D and testing. If Toyota is pinching pennies at this point, how does their long term commitment look right now?

Also, keep the childish insults at home. You always seem to have a bad attitude when someone speculates what you don't agree with.
 
Yes, but AUDI DOESN'T CARE about anything that ins't LE MANS. They built the R18 to win at LE MANS. Nothing else matters to them. They want Le Mans wins.

Then why they even bother doing the whole WEC season and not just Le Mans then?
 
Because Audi used the season as a means of testing the machine, and advertise the brand world over. Audi doesn't do stuff like this just for the giggles.

They for one didn't look too enthusiastic when they saw Toyota cross the line in China, even though they won the championship that day. If you are serious about your game, then you better bring it to the fore wherever and whenever possible.
 
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The odds still aren't in their favor. 1 or 2 Toyotas vs. 3 Audis. There's strength in numbers.

2 Toyota's at Spa and LeMans at least. Only the highest scoring car counts towards the championship.

Audi don't really care much for anything outside Le Mans. That's were they dominate. Audi aren't brilliant or anything like that, but they outspend everyone. Audi outspends the competition and benefits from not only a fast car, but a well built reliable one as well, which counts for a lot. Peugeot was usually faster, but only won 1 Le Mans in 5 years competing. Underestimate Audi at your own peril.
Third in the driver's cup, but well behind the top 2 Audis. Is finishing ahead of privateers that you were multiple seconds faster than, even with 2 DNS, really an accomplishment?
That bolded part is so wrong. They were touting their FIA WEC success, to say they don't care about anything but LeMans is ignorant. If it were true why are they bringing 2 cars to Sebring? Why did they run in the ALMS for so many years? The second bolded part is also wrong. No one underestimates Audi. Audi underestimated Toyota. You talk about finishing in front of privateers, but that's what Audi did in ALMS. That's what Audi did at Spa. That's what Audi did at LeMans before Peugeot. :rolleyes:

Nevertheless, I would agree they have a shot in the drivers championship. It's each car vs each car, and anything can happen there. But in the manufacturers cup, there is strength in numbers and Audi will have a huge edge. From Silverstone to Shanghai, even though Toyota won more races, Audi earned more points because of their reliability and Toyota's DNF in Bahrain. That's the thing, with one car, one little thing can happen and you are out or way behind and your rival will cruise home for a victory. If Toyota has a couple "Bahrains" during the season, unless they are much better than Audi everywhere else, they will lose the championship.
They are all being publicly hopeful, as the racing personnel should be. But they were also publicly hopeful for 3 cars at Le Mans this year and 2 cars in the WEC, but we all know how that turned out. TMG and Toyoda could be as committed as possible, but if the board decides there is not enough benefit in continuing the program, when the cost outweighs the rewards, they will cut the tap and there is nothing Toyoda or TMG will be able to do about it.
See my response to LancerEvo

They could be saving money to develop 2014's car, but that's just the optimist's view. The cost of running a second or third car is near negligible beside the high costs of R&D and testing. If Toyota is pinching pennies at this point, how does their long term commitment look right now?
they're running two cars at Spa and LeMans, how is it pinching pennies if they're running within their budget? Don't forget TMG is also a business. This isn't just some playground Toyota can go to. People like to say "bean counters" but they don't know the situation. It's all guesswork. They like to point to their F1 foray as spending huge amounts of money, but in reality it was building the TMG facilities and getting them up and running and adding the state of the art testing and tooling equipment that added to that.

Also, keep the childish insults at home. You always seem to have a bad attitude when someone speculates what you don't agree with.

Keep what insults? I didn't call you any names. Ignorance isn't name calling, it's the act of not knowing or lack of information or education. And on the subject that's what you're showing. When you come off acting like something is fact and it's not, that's being ignorant. I don't know all, but I know enough from educating myself.

Anyway, who doesn't love this sound?
http://twitter.yfrog.com/jtbjqxecjieaphwbnypfjtrbz
Toyota's TS030 engine sound from testing.
 
2 Toyota's at Spa and LeMans at least. Only the highest scoring car counts towards the championship.
And that is exactly why it will be difficult to win the Manufacturers Championship with only one car. If the one car retires or loses a dozen laps with a problem, you are left with nothing or minimal points instead of a fallback 2nd car with 2nd or 3rd place points. Look at the example in my previous post, Toyota was faster than Audi on average from Silverstone to Shanghai, but Audi scored more manufacturer points because they always got 1st or 2nd place. Retirements will become disasters for Toyota if they are trying to win the Manufacturer's cup.
That bolded part is so wrong. They were touting their FIA WEC success, to say they don't care about anything but LeMans is ignorant. If it were true why are they bringing 2 cars to Sebring? Why did they run in the ALMS for so many years? The second bolded part is also wrong. No one underestimates Audi. Audi underestimated Toyota. You talk about finishing in front of privateers, but that's what Audi did in ALMS. That's what Audi did at Spa. That's what Audi did at LeMans before Peugeot. :rolleyes:
Not AS MUCH. They obviously care about every race they run, or they wouldn't be running them. But priority goes to Le Mans. Everything else is secondary. The resources go towards building a car to win Le Mans first and foremost, but that can also run and win in WEC.

Yes, Audi underestimated Toyota in 2012. Do you think it'll happen again? Audi are already out testing with a Toyota-style rear end. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Audi want to win too, no matter who they race against, and they often do with their huge budget. Peugeot tried to beat Audi at Le Mans but couldn't (other than 09) because they couldn't build a car that was both fast AND reliable enough. Toyota is trying to do the same, but has the same problems (smaller budget, less experience).
they're running two cars at Spa and LeMans, how is it pinching pennies if they're running within their budget?
A budget, that is by all reports, considerably smaller than Audi's. Toyota is in fairly good shape as a company once again, so why can Audi afford to run two cars in the entire WEC and Toyota can't?

Look at it like this:
Audi has already done track testing with the 2013 car, Toyota hasn't.
Audi will run Sebring, the entire WEC with 2 cars and 3 at Le Mans, Toyota won't run Sebring, only 2 cars a Le Mans and Spa and 1 in the rest of the WEC.

So, who looks to be more serious about getting results this year?
Don't forget TMG is also a business. This isn't just some playground Toyota can go to. People like to say "bean counters" but they don't know the situation. It's all guesswork. They like to point to their F1 foray as spending huge amounts of money, but in reality it was building the TMG facilities and getting them up and running and adding the state of the art testing and tooling equipment that added to that.
TMG is a business, but where does the vast majority of the money come from? I guess I'm just guessing here, but I would hazard a guess that it's coming from the Toyota boardrooms in Japan.
Keep what insults? I didn't call you any names. Ignorance isn't name calling, it's the act of not knowing or lack of information or education. And on the subject that's what you're showing. When you come off acting like something is fact and it's not, that's being ignorant. I don't know all, but I know enough from educating myself.
Ignorant? I probably know just as much or almost as much as you do about the subject. I follow all the news about Toyota's program very closely. You are calling me ignorant because I don't come to the same conclusions as you do?

And I don't state anything as a fact. It should be obvious what my predictions are, what the facts are and what my speculation is. You seem to have a hard time discerning that.
 
Ignorant by saying things like Audi only care about LeMans. They got passed by Toyota there as well. Theyve been good but to win on speed hasn't been there. Be realistic, they were shown up by Peugeot and now Toyota. You need to realise no one wants to lose money so dont compare their budget to what the parent company wants to spend. TMG isn't restricted theyre doing what was planned. 2012 was only a full season because the wecneeded two manufacturers. 2013 was the original plan of a full season. With two cars at select rounds and LM. So in reality theyre following what was laid out for them to begin with.
 
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Here's a worrying portion from the Toyota Article on SpeedTV.com:

Between five to six full-season entries are now expected for LMP1.

Looks like even in the WEC, P1 is in the crapper given that apparently half of the class IS the factory entries and the other half is Priveteers (one of them being Rebellion.).
 
RACECAR
Here's a worrying portion from the Toyota Article on SpeedTV.com:

Looks like even in the WEC, P1 is in the crapper given that apparently half of the class IS the factory entries and the other half is Priveteers (one of them being Rebellion.).

It's probably because of the regulation changes next year. New teams aren't going to commit to thr design of a car thats going to be completely useless after one year... I hope thats the case anyway.
 
The privateers cant win so theyre not getting much back for what they put in. In ALMS there are no factory teams so they can challenge for the win. Donno if anyone brought this up but the privateers get a bigger fuel tank and air restrictor for this WEC season. The diesels and hybrid teams stay as is +15kg. So lmp1 could be spiced up but will those changes be enough for a 2-3 second disadvantage at most tracks outside LeMans? I guess they dont think so.
 
And here's Audi's Toyota style rear wing-

2013_WEC_Audi_AbuDhabi.jpg
 
Do we know if we are any closer to racing the #92 SRT Viper? They did so well apparently at the end of the 2012 season at Mid-Ohio where they finished 10th.
 
Do we know if we are any closer to racing the #92 SRT Viper? They did so well apparently at the end of the 2012 season at Mid-Ohio where they finished 10th.

Two Vipers are entered at Le Mans this year I believe. If a V10 doesn't eat up the Mulsanne I don't know what will...

Wait.

GTE at Le Mans this year - Porsche Factory Team vs Dodge Factory Team vs Corvette (maybe C7 or a year early for that?)

:drool:
 
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