The most realistic racing game in PS2..

[Andy GT]

This question has only one answer : OF COURSE IT IS GRAN TURISMO 4!

 

[-ultraflow-]

Gran Turismo 4

Enthusia Professional Racing

and that, a very cool racing game:

Racing Battle C1 Grand Prix

 

[Nicksfix]

It's a no brainer - GT4

 

[Delphic Reason]

Definitely GT3/GT4 (combination of the two physics systems would be damn close to spot on.)

Definitely not Enthusia. Sorry, but there are way too many problems with that game to even come close to being on this list, in my opinion.

 

[Rykon Zero]

Physics wise: Enthusia hands down.
Game wise: Nothing but GT4.

 

[Azuremen]

at all the "new members" sack riding GT4.

EPR has much better physics under, say, 80 MPH than GT4. Especially with tire modeling beyond traction. GT4 was a joke for how broken the tire models were once they started spinning. It is like PD just took the math and said "Traction = 0 once tire starts to spin a little."

I'd say EPR has better physics for road cars, and GT4 has better physics for hard core race cars, because you aren't going to be spinning the tires in those, much anyhow. All the real life cars I drove felt much better in EPR than GT4 though, and you got a very real sense of their mass and movement. Such as when I crested in an SW20 and could tell one tire was off the ground and the back started to slide because I lifted a little mid corner. Things like that.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

GT3 A-Spec has better physics than GT4, in my opinion. I really felt like PD went backwards with GT4 in the physics department when compared to GT3. I've never played Enthusia so I can't compare the game but as far as games that I've played on the PS2, I'll have to say GT3.


Does anyone know where I can get a new copy of Enthusia for cheap? The only place I've found that carries the new copy is Amazon.com but they want like $42 for it. I don't like buying used games, it has to be new because I'm anal about scratches and missing cases or manuals.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd rate GT4 and Enthusia equally overall, but both games have advantages and disadvantages compared to the other. You can read my thoughts on physics here (several posts), but I came to the conclusion that EPR is better in this respect than GT4, and indeed any other PS2 game I've tried. I have to admit to not having played TXRD2 yet, but it's proving difficult to source a copy in the UK. EPR isn't perfect for physics (I find the response a bit slow-witted) but it's very good for a PS2 game.

As for the games as a whole, I like them pretty much evenly.

EPR has better physics for me, as mentioned, but GT4 wins for graphics. EPR is great and very similar to GT4, but there are a few glaring errors, such as the "unfinished" scenery that's very visible on the Dragon Range downhill course. However, the rain and wet track effects (and indeed snowy surfaces) are better in Enthusia, as are the smoke effects.

The circuits in Enthusia are more fun and more imaginative than GT4 - perhaps I'm just bored of the same old GT circuits, but tracks like the aforementioned Dragon Range, Burgenschlucht, Wintertraum and Mirage Crossing are all fantastic and miles more imaginative, whilst still looking like real places. The tracks based on real cities, like London, San Francisco and Venice, are all detailed and atmospheric. GT4 however has more real-life circuits so gains points back here.

Cars - GT4 wins for sheer numbers, and I love the inclusion of so many muscle cars and unusual vehicles, but I do like the extra variety that EPR offers. I'd welcome the inclusion into GT5 of some of the cars EPR has included - proper off-roaders, minivans, rally raid cars, the classic Morris Mini Cooper, the Smart, E30 M3, BMW 3.0 CSL, Citroen DS, MGB, Abarths, Firebird Trans Am, Saabs, more classic Japanese cars... and so on. Variety is the spice of life.

GT4 also wins for realistic tuning, but at the same time, I much prefer the ease of use of Enthusia's settings menus, and it's something that GT could definitely learn from.

So yeah, I'd say for overall realism they're about equal, on balance. As for other games, Tourist Trophy is excellent - probably better graphics and more fun than GT4, and the on-board riding view is excellent, really adds to the game just as the in-car view does in GT5P. As for rally games, I haven't played Richard Burns Rally, the Colin McRae games have great graphics and they're great fun, but the courses are too short and the handling isn't as realistic as others, and the WRC games are quite similar, maybe a little more realistic and detailed courses, but less fun.

GT3 A-Spec has better physics than GT4, in my opinion. I really felt like PD went backwards with GT4 in the physics department when compared to GT3. I've never played Enthusia so I can't compare the game but as far as games that I've played on the PS2, I'll have to say GT3.

Does anyone know where I can get a new copy of Enthusia for cheap? The only place I've found that carries the new copy is Amazon.com but they want like $42 for it. I don't like buying used games, it has to be new because I'm anal about scratches and missing cases or manuals.

Don't be too fussy about buying used. I got my copy of Enthusia used off Amazon Marketplace for about £4, or roughly $5.70 at the current exchange rate. It's a little scuffed but nowhere near enough to even think about skipping, and the game has the full manual. Just choose buyers with lots of high feedback ratings and if they're describing it as "used - as new" you can guarantee they're telling the truth.

 

[Tornado]

Does anyone know where I can get a new copy of Enthusia for cheap?

It costs like 6 bucks at Gamestop.

I have to admit to not having played TXRD2 yet, but it's proving difficult to source a copy in the UK.

That game is quickly becoming one of my favorite games on the entire system. The only thing I can note off the top of my head is that AWD traction is done way better than either Enthusia or GT4.
You have nearly as many tuning options as you did in NFS Underground 2, as well (so, suffice to say, way more than any other sim on the system).

 

[Wolfe]

Like every other Genki game I've played, TXRD2 has a strong tendency for the cars to straighten out, which corroborates Toronado's note on the AWD traction. However, this doesn't translate so well into responsive, flexible RWD handling. Drifting is hit or miss and requires a lot of practice with the physics engine's quirks. Still, it's fun to tackle those mountain roads in a game that actually tries to present a believable driving experience.

 

[CyborgGT]

at all the "new members" sack riding GT4.

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Does anyone in here actually have experience with taking at least a handful of these cars to the limit in real life? Other than the few people I've come across on GTPlanet that actually have racing experience, it would seem nobody here has the authority to say what's the most realistic unless it was blatantly obvious, which it isn't with all this arguing.

 

[Wolfe]

Does anyone in here actually have experience with taking at least a handful of these cars to the limit in real life? Other than the few people I've come across on GTPlanet that actually have racing experience, it would seem nobody here has the authority to say what's the most realistic unless it was blatantly obvious, which it isn't with all this arguing.

Dave A covered that subject quite well, once before:

...you can get an idea in general of how cars behave. An inaccurate physics engine produces oddities when you try to do things that the makers perhaps didn't expect you too or wern't concerned with. Yes you will need first hand experience of a Nissan R34 GT-R to know that GT5 simulates it accurately, but and this is a big but, you don't need first hand experience to know if it doesn't.

Physics are physics, when things happen in the game that don't in real life, there's no "yeah but have you driven that car irl" argument to come back on, certain flaws are easy to spot. GT4 had big problems with grip transition, big problems. Then you have the issue of cars being rooted to the road on impact, for example performaing the pit manouver was almost impossible, you don't need first hand experience of performing the pit manouver to know that. Then there's power delivery and the effect of flooring a car without touching the steering. I don't need to try it in a TVR Griffith 500 to know that that would leave you facing in the wrong direction especially on a cambered road. Then there's some problems that become evident when you mod a car like the speeds you can get some of the cars to go, there is no chance you'll get a BMW M5 to go 260mph with the power that you can give it in the game, it's simply not possible when you do the math. And while we're at it, the wheelie "trick", just because I've never tried in real life doesn't mean I can't say that with 100% certainty, putting thoes setting on a car on a long straight would result in it doing a wheelie and accelerating to speeds of 2000kph and more. Now you can argue that that's a glitch all you want, but it's simply exploitation of the flaws in the physics engine. Just because you won't be doing that in a serious race doesn't mean that the flaws that exagerates arn't already there.

 

[Tornado]

I will also add to TXRD2 that the handbrake physics feel perfect based on my experience of a Neon in an Aldis parking lot. Though I suppose they would have to.

 

[rotary drifter]

after playing GT4, i would say it's definetly behind TXRD2 and Enthusia in physics by quite a long shot. FR cars feel like FF/4wd cars with the big understeer, even when u brake/e-brake a lot mid turn with the proper turn in speed.

maybe if u really do lots of tuning, but i havent made enough money to buy all the parts and try every car yet. maybe if i played txrd2 with steering angle +5 it'll feel more similar, since steering seems really wide in gt4. which makes the car more stable but you really have to turn the wheel a lot.

As a game, it's content is better than enthusia. it didnt have much on TXRD2 which is way better imo.

 

[Delphic Reason]

after playing GT4, i would say it's definetly behind TXRD2

You have to be joking. I own said games, and you couldn't be farther from the truth. TXRD2 has some of the worst physics I've ever encountered outside of the regular TXR games. Enthusia definitely has some advantages over GT4 (although not as much when compared to GT3), but TXRD2? Not a chance.

 

[rotary drifter]

You have to be joking. I own said games, and you couldn't be farther from the truth. TXRD2 has some of the worst physics I've ever encountered outside of the regular TXR games. Enthusia definitely has some advantages over GT4 (although not as much when compared to GT3), but TXRD2? Not a chance.

I guess it's so realistic how you can turn with an FR car, while pulling the ebrake and braking extensively, just to try to reduce understeer, and cars stay stable on straights no matter how fast you go and how unstable your settings are.

 

[Delphic Reason]

I guess it's so realistic how you can turn with an FR car, while pulling the ebrake and braking extensively, just to try to reduce understeer, and cars stay stable on straights no matter how fast you go and how unstable your settings are.

Are you referring to Enthusia, TXRD2, or GT4?

A little clarification would help.

 

[Azuremen]

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Does anyone in here actually have experience with taking at least a handful of these cars to the limit in real life? Other than the few people I've come across on GTPlanet that actually have racing experience, it would seem nobody here has the authority to say what's the most realistic unless it was blatantly obvious, which it isn't with all this arguing.

Yes, I do have experience throwing several MR2s around tracks.

The relevance of people sack riding GT series is that people just assume it is the best. This are often the same kind of people that have all their knowledge of cars based of this game.

 

[rotary drifter]

Are you referring to Enthusia, TXRD2, or GT4?

A little clarification would help.

GT4 ofcourse, which had the worst physics ever for a simulator, that I've tried, unless you only count really stable cars with ABS.

 

[homeforsummer]

GT4 ofcourse, which had the worst physics ever for a simulator, that I've tried, unless you only count really stable cars with ABS.

I'd disagree entirely that GT4 had the "worst physics ever for a simulator". It's actually pretty good, just not quite up to things like EPR, GT5P, LFS and so on. I certainly prefer GT4's physics to games like GTR or RACE, which people seem to go crazy over but aren't really that special.

 

[Delphic Reason]

GT4 ofcourse, which had the worst physics ever for a simulator, that I've tried, unless you only count really stable cars with ABS.

That's a stretch, and a clear indication that you either have not played very many sims, or do not have much experience behind the wheel of a car at or past it's limits. GT4 is not perfect, (in fact, I think GT3 is closer to reality in a few key ways), but it's certainly not the "worst" of the "sims" on the market.

However, you were clearly comparing GT4 with TXRD2 (in a previous post), which is far from a sim. I've never heard anyone even suggest that TXRD2 had any qualities of a sim.

 

[Azuremen]

GT4 would have been much better with better tire modeling. The tires seemed modeled very poorly once they started to spin, and a lot of my issues stem from that.

 

[Tornado]

I've never heard anyone even suggest that TXRD2 had any qualities of a sim.

I've read reviews that treated it as such. I can also easily see where they are coming from.

 

[Hyst]

What is TXDR2? Toca Race Driver 2?

 

[Delphic Reason]

GT4 would have been much better with better tire modeling. The tires seemed modeled very poorly once they started to spin, and a lot of my issues stem from that.

You hit the nail on the head. That's my one major complaint with GT4.

I've read reviews that treated it as such. I can also easily see where they are coming from.

I've read reviews that think GRID is a sim. Nevertheless, 90% of the reviews know better than to lump it with other simulation games.

TXRD2 (Tokyo Extreme Racer Drift 2) is the same way (in this regard) as 90% of the reviews all stated it was a poorly executed "arcade style" driving game. How someone can skip over 90% of reviews and just pay attention to the 1 or 2 that are way off base, is completely a mystery to me. The TXR series has never been known for it's physics. Do a quick search and you will come up with terms like "floaty" and "disconnected" in regards to the series. Very accurate as the way the cars handle in said game (and even more in previous games) is while having base elements of a real car (turn the wheel to the left, and the car goes left...hahaha) that's about where it ends.

People making the Enthusia argument are at least on the right track, and seem to know what they're on about. TXR? That's just nonsense.

 

[Tornado]

People making the Enthusia argument are at least on the right track, and seem to know what they're on about. TXR? That's just nonsense.

I disagree. While I obviously wouldn't defend it in such a way as rotary drifter has, I can easily see the sim elements that the physics engine has; and I can see that the game was designed more as a sim than an arcade racer (which is an altogether different thing than what GRID was aiming for). I can also recognize where said sim elements succeed, particularly when it does so in bits where other sims stumble. Just because the engine stumbles frequently does not mean that the entire concept of it being a sim are nonsense, because the same criticism can be leveled at GT4.

That being said, I may be talking above my level of comprehension, so I apologize if this all sounds ridiculous.

 

[Delphic Reason]

I disagree. While I obviously wouldn't defend it in such a way as rotary drifter has, I can easily see the sim elements that the physics engine has; and I can see that the game was designed more as a sim than an arcade racer (which is an altogether different thing than what GRID was aiming for). I can also recognize where said sim elements succeed, particularly when it does so in bits where other sims stumble. Just because the engine stumbles frequently does not mean that the entire concept of it being a sim are nonsense, because the same criticism can be leveled at GT4.

That being said, I may be talking above my level of comprehension, so I apologize if this all sounds ridiculous.

On the contrary, probably the most valid point yet argued in TXRD2's (that's it, I'm calling it "The Drift Game") favor.

Yet, the TXR series (including the 2 Drift titles) are classified as arcade titles (i.e. not sim), by the developers themselves.

While, every driving game needs to adhere to some basic principles in order to convey a recognizable "driving" experience to the user. They do not necessarily a simulation make. These elements can be exaggerated and often unrealistic in execution and/or approach. The TXR series has always had a hard time with the idea of vehicle weight and the transfer of said weight to the tires, and the road. Possibly the most important aspect of a "simulation" game, in my opinion. That's always been my big problem with the series. Furthermore, the over-the-top tongue and cheek nature of the story lines is also a dead give away for a typical "arcade" game.

It seems the GT series (with GT4 taking some major hits) and Enthusia are currently reigning at the top, in this list, unless anyone else has any suggestions?

 

[Hun200kmh]

It seems the GT series (with GT4 taking some major hits) and Enthusia are currently reigning at the top, in this list, unless anyone else has any suggestions?

Considering this thread's title, there's at least one other game that fully deserves to be considered when "realistic racing" is envolved: TRD3.


Granted, it hasn't the looks of the GT series games for the PS2 (GT3, GTConcept, GT4, GT4) and it hasn't the physics we got in Enthusia.

But if we focus on "realistic racing" only, TRD3 could be very well considered the best of them all. Because it's the only one of these games that had online (still unbeaten in its features even in the PS3, with the possible exclusion of F1:CE, a game I never played).

So, if in the PS2 you wanted fast-paced racing against human players ... it was in TRD3 that you would find it.

But even offline wasn't bad. Grids up to 20 cars, good AI (perhaps a bit too agressive but definitely better than what we got in GT4 and even in Enthusia), lots of great tracks from all over the world and lots of different cars and racing disciplines to choose from.

Yes, if the "racing" was what mattered, no PS2 game could provide what TRD3 gave us gamers.

 

[Tornado]

Yet, the TXR series (including the 2 Drift titles) are classified as arcade titles (i.e. not sim), by the developers themselves.

Are you sure? Being at school now, I can't check, but I thought the manual talked about ti being a sim.

 

[Delphic Reason]

Are you sure? Being at school now, I can't check, but I thought the manual talked about ti being a sim.

Well, it may or may not. In fact, I'm sure it does, since every Genki game talks about simulating this and that in the manual. The problem is, so does PGR, Sega Rally, and Test Drive. None of which are simulations. As I previously said All "driving games" have to in escence "simulate" a driving experience enough to be recognizeable as such. Therefore, they are bound to talk about simulating various aspects of the driving experience. This does not necessarily a simulation make.

As a general rule of thumb. Games that include phrases like,

"My skills are mad tyte! See if you can take me down on the Touge Yo!

are not simulations.

Considering this thread's title, there's at least one other game that fully deserves to be considered when "realistic racing" is envolved: TRD3.

Good call. Fun series.