The New Direction of Gran Turismo

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by AJFast12, Jul 8, 2017.

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Do you like the new change in the GT Franchise?

  1. Yes, I welcome change to the GT Franchise

    47.4%
  2. No, They should keep the ongoing formula.

    34.9%
  3. It doesnt really matter, i only play to race.

    17.7%
  1. Tornado

    Tornado

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    I don't understand how you can recognize that their statements to that effect are a joke, but then try and force it as an actual argument anyway.
     
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  2. skazz

    skazz

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    What does modeling in HDR even mean?

    As far as I'm concerned it's simply defining a colour using the HDR colour palette (DCI-P3) versus the sRGB colour palette. This is simply metadata for the paint shaders on top of the 3D model, not the actual model itself.

    So how can "modeling in HDR" be touted as a thing?
     
  3. sems4arsenal

    sems4arsenal Premium

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    From what I understood, PD's color range far exceeds anything out there at the moment (even movies) so if Forza uses HDR it doesn't have the wide color gamut (if it does, they didn't say).

    For the actual modeling of the cars -- some said that PBR requires remodeling. The shaders are also better than the competition.

    @Tornado I'm taking it with a grain of salt. But given that they said the models they have are the next best thing to the actual CAD models, I have a hard time figuring out how can they do one better.
     
  4. cutmeamango

    cutmeamango (Banned)

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    :bowdown:

    :lol:

    Mirror, mirror.

    Yeah, PD's color range of choice is wider, but I don't see that as something of a huge differential since others are just a rendering engine update of supporting such range, and I'd assume they need a lighting model that supports it proper too.

    PBR doesn't require remodelling. What may require remodelling is the change from the software solution for adaptive tessellation on PS3 to the available hardware solution on PS4. And probably because the models present in GTS do have finer detailing than the premiums in photomode on what concerns headlights at the very least.

    And yes, while playing seer hardly works out, the models really are of impressive quality and while there's always space for polygonal and information increase, they do seem to be at a point where future's extra graphic budget would be better used on the surroundings of the car to further close the gap for the whole image produced.
    Especially when something on the spectrum of mid Ryzen and lower Vega's are what people expect for next generation of consoles, where 4K rendering (native or checkerboarded or whatever other solution may appear) will probably be the norm to aim, the jump, again, won't be of raw power, but of available techniques and art direction to produce something impressive.

    All that said, I'd say that the biggest advantage in the work PD has done, other than minutiae details on modelling that are noticed in stills, is the material and shaders work as you pointed.
    PBR doesn't lend itself to great results alone, the materials' precision has to be there. And that it is.
    You can see here (or FM7's alcantara pumice :dopey: ) that there are bricks and then there are BRICKS. So there's quite the work to achieve something believable or close to physical.
    They said they modified cameras to aid in this process and perhaps that may be the biggest hold up for modelling crews. They likely have to resource cars again, not for surface scanning, but for material capturing where perhaps their photographic methods of before are insufficient.

    And if the "400 cars" is to be believed (that was said in an event in China with just one source reporting I think?), I'd wager it relies on getting older models up to par as they fit.
     
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  5. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

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    From what I understood is that they've been using a bunch of fancy marketing talk like "Super-Premiums" which, like I said, doesn't seem massively different than what much of the competition is doing. Not that I'm putting it down, but this is far away from your original point.

    For the actual modeling of the cars, is shading even part of that? I'm not entirely sure. Even if PBR did require remodeling, this is also something they don't really have advantage with either, in regards to Forza at least .
     
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  6. MMX

    MMX Premium

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    I might in the minority, but I'm glad GTS is not as much an in-depth "sim" as PCars and AC, which seems to be a big target lately. I got PCars very shortly after it came out, and didn't really care for it, for a few different reasons. AC, going by what I read about, seemed to be a hardcore racing game, and that didn't interest me at all. I have always like the feel and for the most part, the formula of a GT game. Of course the main focus is racing, but it had so much other stuff that appeals to the car guy in me. Not necessarily collecting, but aquiring cars I like, and being able to customize them a bit, then ripping around a track, and taking photos of it, are fun to me. I feel like I own the cars, that's one thing I didn't like about PCars, they always felt like rental cars.

    You'd think I'd be all over games like NFS, since they have a ton of customization, but their racing sucks.

    I've rambled on til I've forgotten why I even made this post now. LOL
     
  7. Imari

    Imari

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    What does HDR have to do with future proofing cars? It's merely about how colours and brightness are displayed. On TVs that support it, it'll display the wider gamut. On ones that don't, it won't and will compress it to something in range. There's no future proofing models in that.
     
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  8. Greek

    Greek (Banned)

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    Milestone cares about money only. It is all about the easy money. They do not want to write history. They do not create masterpieces. They create run-of-the-mill products. Milestone is not special.

    The cars that we see on the streets are street-legal vehicles.

    I am interested in street-legal vehicles only.

    What do you mean?

    Then it must become possible.

    In the video below, we can see that in Project CARS 2 each of the four sets of things that can be adjusted are named as "FRONT LEFT", "FRONT RIGHT", "REAR LEFT", and "REAR RIGHT". There is a "SYMMETRICAL" option also.

    Project CARS 2 - EDIT SETUP


    No, it is simulated faithfully, but the user cannot adjust the tire pressures.

    You typed "I've not said anything close". What I quoted was typed by Johnnypenso, not you.

    Then it must be removed.

    Once the BD-ROM version is released, we will see. Also, patches will follow.

    I want PD to perfect their physics engine. I want everything to be simulated as faithfully as possible. If something is adjustable in or on a vehicle, then it must be possible to adjust that something in the simulator also.

    Are you telling me that not being able to adjust tire pressures means that tire pressure is not simulated at all, or that it is not simulated as faithfully as possible?

    EDIT: video below, not below video
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  9. Roger the Horse

    Roger the Horse

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    Rally cars are road legal. If you go to the roads in an area in which a rally is being held you will see rally cars on the street driving between stages.
     
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  10. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

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    Citation required.

    So, rally cars then.

    Then GT Sport isn't really your thing.

    Citation required.
     
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  11. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

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    This is a fact?

    It is simulated to point they wanted it, which is not as high-fidelity as you claim, in comparison to the competition.
    Which means absolutely nothing for what we know. We can say "what if" about any game, but where does that lead us? That any game ever can be the best because something might or can change. If something changes when the final game is released, than opinions will have to be reevaluated.

    What in the world does this have to do with a hammer smashing a windshield?

    If you can not do something, than how would it be simulated? What that means is that the tire model of the game isn't up to snuff with all of the competition. So yes, that means it's not simulated as "faithfully" as possible, much like other area's of the physics simulation in comparison.

    Are they using a certain, acceptable, level of fidelity concerning the physics? Sure, but it's not the highest, and it's also not the most "faithfully" possible. Where we see a level of high-fidelity within the game is definitely the visuals.
     
  12. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    That is neither fact or an answer to the question I asked.

    Once again, now using objective facts explain what is wrong with SLRE.


    I've seen rally cars on the street, I've driven rally cars on the street, they are road leagl


    Then you must hate GTS, given that over 70% of its car list consists of vehicles that are not street legal at all; both Dirt and SLRE have a far higher percentage of street legal vehicles.


    In the area of how tactile feedback is represented that DC is an arcade title doesn't make a bit of difference. Its of a higher fidelity than GT.


    In twenty years they have never done so, as such its of a lower level of fidelity than titles that do.


    I know, its the same with AC as well.

    They also both offer a much wider range of options to adjust as well, and as such both offer a significantly higher level of fidelity in this area than GT ever has.


    Citation required. GTS has a tyre model that is much improved over past versions, all of which most certainly did not simulate tyres faithfully at all.


    And as such is a lower level of fidelity to titles that allow you to.

    Doesn't mean I can't reply to it as well. Its a forum, as such its a group discussion.


    And until it is GTS has a lower level of fidelity in that area.


    And until that's done GTS has a lower level of fidelity in that area.


    I'm quite sure you do, however GT is still quite a long way from that, hence it offers a lower level of fidelity it this area, by quite a margin.


    Well that depends on which GT you are talking about.

    GT to GT6 show no evidence at all that tire pressure is anything other than a fixed value, even changing tyre compounds did nothing other than adjust a grip multiplier, something that has been conclusively to be the case in GT.

    GTS seems to have moved in the right direction, but the manner in which tyres heat and wear clealy shows that its tyre model is quite a way behind a lot of other sims.

    I'm also utterly confused as to why you are waiting for GTS, given that you want the highest fidelity in terms of physics and want street legal vehicles over others, as a title that meets those needs already very much exists. Assetto Corsa.

    It's only lower in terms of fidelity in comparison to GTS with regard to visual aspects; in every other regard, from physics, to feedback, to road legal car ratio, to audio, to track accuracy its in front of GTS and by quite a margin!
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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  13. marcvic

    marcvic

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    @Johnnypenso - this is from Epic Crying/Whining thread. Didn't want to have the conversation in two different threads.

    This is just what I found from Wikipedia - I'm sure there are variations in the real world:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_pipeline

    If the "Model & Camera transformation" phase is at the beginning of the "Geometry" step, and PD have indeed changed the way they capture vehicles than it seems very possible that they had to start from scratch due to newer photo/modeling technology available. It is possible that because they are able to capture so much more photography detail that updating the older models could have reached a point where simply bringing them up to GT Sport spec may have been more trouble than its worth. After all, it seems that the polygons and their vertices is one of the least time intensive steps in the modeling process. Not saying that it is the case, but that it makes a lot of sense.

    @cutmeamango You've made a point I've been trying to get at in another thread - yes, the lighting model looks damn good, but the interaction with surfaces, the detail of the textures, the accuracy of the car models is what brings everything together. The graphics of other sims are by no means bad, but GT is in a class of its own in regards to graphics.

    What does this have to do with the new direction of GT Sport? Industry leading graphics have always been a priority with PD, so that is nothing new. But with GT Sport I am tempted to say that the graphics have indeed gotten good enough to be used for another console generation, especially if a PS5 is going to release by 2019-2020. I read another member say they thought the only thing they could do with more hardware is improve small details - more particle effects, tightening up any texture pop-in, increase rear view mirror resolution, haze effects, etc. - I agree with that.

    So PD have essentially set themselves up with a car modeling process that could last 10 years after release, give or take. This means that they only need to focus on content (cars/tracks), and features (course creator, special events, etc.) post release.

    Edit: Releasing 4 years into this console generation puts PD in a weird release schedule with the sequel and the upcoming generation. Do they pull a GT6 and release before the new hardware is available, or do they only release one GT game this generation?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  14. Castrol96

    Castrol96

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    Not much of a change, but pretty much the same (AFAIK).
     
  15. Greek

    Greek (Banned)

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    @Roger the Horse @SlipZtrEm @ImaRobot @Scaff,

    I did not know that in a number of countries rally cars are street-legal. Nevertheless, the majority does not own a rally car. The majority owns a production vehicle.

    I am interested in production vehicles only. GT will always have production vehicles.

    Now, about Milestone. Take a look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestone_S.r.l.#Developed_as_Milestone. It is all about the money.

    I did not compare GTS with any other driving simulator. I said that it is a high-fidelity driving simulator.

    What does "to point they wanted it" mean?

    We will see.

    It is an example of something that we cannot do in the driving simulators that we are talking about.

    The fact that the users are not able to adjust something does not mean that that something is not simulated at all, or that it is simulated less faithfully.

    I never said that there is something wrong with it. It is not special. GT is special.

    Have you ever driven in the physical reality any of the cars that can be driven in Driveclub? If yes, you did so at the same high speeds?

    We will see.

    The fact that the users are not able to adjust something does not mean that that something is not simulated at all, or that it is simulated less faithfully.

    And it will become better.

    Johnnypenso typed that, not you. Why did you tell me "I've not said anything close, what I have said"? I quoted something that Johnnypenso said. I never said that you cannot tell me something about something that I said to someone else.

    They are working on it.

    The newest GT is always the best GT.

    They are still working on it.

    Because GTS upon release will be one of the best driving simulators.

    Assetto Corsa is imperfect too.
     
  16. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

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    Ah, moving the goalposts.

    Just far, far less than any previous GT — and less than the racing vehicles that make up the rest of the game. So it stands to reason that if you're interested in the most realistic physics with a wide selection of road cars, GT Sport is not the ideal candidate.

    Yes, that is indeed a list of titles. I think you'll find most developers have one of those.

    Opinions =/= facts. You've been told repeatedly to not present them as such.

    Then show us proof tire pressure is modelled in the game.

    Opinions =/= facts.

    :lol:

    Opinions =/= facts.

    Opinions =/= facts.

    Yes. No game is, nor is one likely to ever be, perfect. More moving of the goalposts, I see.
     
  17. bdj57

    bdj57

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    I welcome the "wind of change" GT had right now and curious how to see things work with this new step of direction as long they keep improving, no matter how small or big an improvement is still an improvement imo. I'm okay people giving with heavy criticism or feedback because we needed them from people who had long and further experience with GT (and those who already played GT even though just once) to support this game for the next generation of players.

    Also one thing I want to pointed out is hopefully with this changes doesn't change GT in terms of impressions and feels for future GT. I'm not talking about serious stuff like physics and vehicle dynamics, but it is about an image when you see new GT it looks and feels like GT as we know and familiar with. A charm that makes people like and love GT. From what I've seen with GTS looks like it is still got it. The "soul of GT" is still present imo.
     
  18. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

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    It doesn't matter that you're not comparing it to the competition. The reason the competition was brought up to point out that if we look at the greater picture, we can tell the physics department isn't as high-fidelity as you're mentioning. Does it make the game bad? No, not at all.

    It means that they stopped at a certain point of simulation, and were fine with the model they gave to us. Whether it was restrictions, or a design choice, is not known.

    If something is missing completely, like tire pressure, than how is it simulated? So if it actually is there, than that would mean its at a lower level of fidelity if we can not do something as simple as changing tire pressure, right?

    This is a fact?

    This is a fact? It might become better, but that means nothing for what we know. All kinds of things might be better, but whats the point of discussing that?

    How is it going to be the best simulator if it's already missing the basics of most any simulator out? It will be a good game, but it will not be the best in terms of physics simulation.

    Assetto Corsa being imperfect doesn't have much to do with your claim.
     
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  19. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Why did you think they had registration plates on them?

    Oh and Greece is one of those countries.

    Are you actually aware of the number of production road cars that GTS has?


    And?

    Do you think that PD are not in it for the money as well? Or does Kaz deliver a basket of kittens to you each month because he just loves the fans more than anything?


    In comparison to reality many others are far higher, and in some areas GT is simply not.


    So your now basing it being High-Fidelity of what it might be? Doesn't work like that.

    No its you attempting to argue to the absurd.

    Yes it does, it means exactly that.

    Now evidence exists that the tyre model in GT doesn't simulate a varying tyre pressure, as such we await your evidence to prove otherwise.

    First don't keep presenting your opinion as if its fact.

    Secondly, yes you did. You said "It is a well-known fact that Milestone creates products that are trash", SLRE is a Milestone product, so support your factual claim.

    I do expect an answer on this, and you can include the Dirt Rally in your explanation as well. Remember only facts.

    Yes and Yes

    Just to turn that around, I assume from the line of questioning that you have to, and have driven DriveClub in a rig with a tactile set-up?

    So your now basing it being High-Fidelity of what it might be? Doesn't work like that.

    And?

    So your now basing it being High-Fidelity of what it might be? Doesn't work like that.


    Many would disagree, in fact the staff had a poll about it and an article was published about it, point of fact not one of us agree with that.

    So your now basing it being High-Fidelity of what it might be? Doesn't work like that.

    You are basing this on what?

    No one said it was perfect, but on your fidelity measure is bests GT in every single area bar visuals, and does so by quite a large margin. Not only that but it has a far higher ratio of production road cars in it.

    What also amazes me is that you seem to be tied to one franchise and one franchise only, as such I suspect that this has nothing at all to do with actually wanting the title with the highest level of fidelity in as many areas as possible and as many production road cars as possible, and far more to do with some odd need to defend GT no matter what.

    Most of the members in this conversation own multiple title and would never dream of this kind of odd, rabid attachment, simply because most people are aware that no single title can do it all.

    My pre-order for GTS is still in place, because it will produce some great pictures and videos, because in that area its the higest fidelity title on the market, but I'm certainly not going to limit myself to just GTS, as so many other titles offer some much more in other areas.

    Tell me, which of the titles you have dismissed out of hand have you actually had experience with and how much experience?
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
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  20. doblocruiser

    doblocruiser

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    I admire the positive sentiment of some in here :tup:. I currently don't share the same feeling but it would be nice if GT makes magic work and can bring back the spark I once had......
     
  21. Tornado

    Tornado

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    "Simcade"
     
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  22. George Jakob

    George Jakob

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    i think GTS is a seperate game for pure racing there will be a GT7 with the classic Formula i like the thing there trying but they could have done a lot better with the FIA support i mean the could have more race cars mores types of cars for example F1 cars etc and some of the tracks they confirm are useless like the ovals like GT3 cars racing at ovals or LMP'S its normal don't get me wrong it has a nostalgia feel to it but its just wrong also the Casual's screamed for change for years if this isen't the change they wanted well sucks for them
     
  23. MisterOne77

    MisterOne77

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    When I look at GTS, I don't see it being anymore than a one off/spin off title. It just seems to small scale in comparison to even GT6. I think this game might just be an experiment, to see how the community will react to something like this and if it will be successful.
     
  24. z71L28

    z71L28

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    I'm not satisfied with GT's new approach. Seeing to many race cars and not enough road cars, more of a multiplayer online game. I want to see old style GT, huge list of makes and models classic's to modern's with descriptions and history. It's all about the road production cars for me. This will be the worst selling GT title to date.
     
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  25. skazz

    skazz

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    If so, it's been a 4 year experiment so far..... I'd hate to see how long a non-experimental GT7 would have taken!
     
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  26. bdj57

    bdj57

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    Imo to release two title in one generation of console lifespan is pretty hard for PD these days. Look at what they did in PS3 era, barely keep up with Forza and other titles especially GT6. I don't say GT6 is bad, but because PD a little late to brought second GT title to PS3 while other devs already catching up quick and get their focus on PS4 along with other new gen console at that time, makes GT6 is slightly behind the competitors. Still, is a good game by any means beside some issues it had imo.

    I guess GTS will go through PS4 lifespan looking by what PD experienced in the past. However, depending on people reviews and reception about the game when released, PD could decide whether continue with the GTS sequel or back to old formula with two GT titles per generation of console and that is vital decision to make.

    Tbh it is not just about giving fans and others a great, fun and solid games anymore. Is about defending reputation and image of GT itself through people opinion and judgement these days. Gaining people trust is something that modern devs did and PD should follow to survive and keep exist in another day. And they just learned it with GTS, even not as communcative as other developers, a small sign of changes are welcome nonetheless.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
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  27. cjr3559

    cjr3559 Premium

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    According to the GT website, it looks like there will be movies for the car history buffs. Should be promising and educational.
     
  28. HarVee

    HarVee

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    What I'd really love to see return is a combination of the GT PS1/2 way of doing dealerships. A city "map" UI that hosts car brands from various regions (GT2) with unique music that plays for each car manufacturer (GT1) and every car has their own unique menu logo (1,2,3,4) and every brand has their own short scrolling description. (GT3,4)

    I don't care if this concept is too 1990's. I love it. Makes me feel more like I'm actually browsing a car dealership.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  29. SpectralGas

    SpectralGas

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    Poll is awful, needs an option that the series needed a shake up...but GT Sport isn't it.
     
  30. Greek

    Greek (Banned)

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    No. It is called telling you the truth. I meant and mean production vehicles. Those are the street-legal vehicles I am talking about. I have seen zero people driving rally cars to go to work, to a friend's house, to the supermarket, and to other places.

    Do not pretend that you did not know about which kind of vehicles I am talking about.

    GTS will be the first of the second-generation GT releases. We will see.

    I never present opinions as facts.

    They wanted to become and became official licensees for the money only. For more than a decade they have been releasing products that are not special. Quantity over quality.

    I did not say that it is simulated. I said that, just because the beta users could not adjust tire pressures, does not mean that it is not simulated.

    What?

    I want perfect driving simulators.

    Yes, it is bad. If things are not exactly as they are in reality, it is bad. I want perfect driving simulators. I want GT to become perfect.

    Nothing is random in the design of computers and driving simulators.

    If something is not simulated we cannot say that it is simulated. The fact that the users cannot adjust tire pressures in the beta does not prove that tire pressure is not simulated.

    Here are two videos by @Snake206:



    It will become better. That is indisputable. PD does not create low-budget, low-quality software products.

    I never said that it will be the best. I said it will be one of the best.

    I want perfection.

    I did not know.

    Yes.

    PD does not create run-of-the-mill products.

    They are working on it.

    Of course it does. The beta is not the BD-ROM release version.

    You misunderstood. Reread my previous posts.

    The fact that the users cannot adjust tire pressures in the beta does not prove that tire pressure is not simulated.

    I never present opinions as facts.

    Until Milestone releases something amazing, it will continue to be a company that creates run-of-the-mill products.

    Which cars?

    No, I have not. Since you have done that, you can tell me.

    The beta is not the BD-ROM release version.

    It is a false statement.

    The beta is not the BD-ROM release version.

    Then they do not care if things are simulated as faithfully as possible.

    The beta is not the BD-ROM release version.

    I base this on Mr. Yamauchi's decisions.

    Driveclub, the Need for Speed series, The Crew series, et cetera. Everything that is designed for people who want to escape from reality is disqualified.

    stop