The Power Limiter: Fun, stupid, or game breaker?

[shirakawaa]

It doesn't limit power in a realistic way (like an air restrictor), but like a very precise electronically controlled throttle limiter.

 

[Fred la Poignee]

Useful but should be limited to 20% instead of 50%

 

[C-ZETA]

It is a very useful addition if you don't overuse it. It has completely broken the time trials though It's all R390 GT1 now in the road car challenges

 

[g0ld]

We should be able to only limit power to 85%, otherwise game breaker.

 

[mcfizzle]

I wish they limited it to 10 or 15% power reduction, not 50%. If they did that than it would only be a good thing in my book.

 

[sdf]

it is usefull especially if your cars after some time has gained some power but PD should add ASAP what HKS racer said.

I think PD should add a feature to limit and categoryze all these cars, come on we have 1000 of them. If you want a GT race and you don't want someone else to enter with a restricted LMP car, just uncheck the "LMP" class as you would do in PC games like rFactor or GTR2, problem solved. The same for Leaderboards time attacks, it's getting boring with all those R390/NSX LM Road/LMP cars everywhere.

well said, 👍
i am really really tired to ask people to change cars.... i set the pp limit to 650 and they pick minolta, gt40, pagani lm, etc etc.....I am saying it out loud wile i set the limit, i write it after setting the limit and is like talking to a wall.
10 people in a room have picked a gt/jgtc car and 2-3 morons picks an LM/LMP/Groop C etc etc...??? what is wrong with them? they think that the rest people in the room are idiots? or dont have a minolta?
At the begging i was asking them to change car, now i kick them instantly.

 

[VBR]

If they can't fix it in a future update, then we should at least have the option in the room settings to ban it's use.


💡

 

[ghsnu]

Well doesn't that just say the original car is not that much better anyway?? Your essentially saying the car will be how it always is, and not be that much slower than it was before de-tuning. (yet still has to fit within the PP limit)
The less your allowed to reduce, the less difference between the non reduced cars and the car the reduced vehicle is originally.

What I would like to see stopped is the ability to bring cars in from completely different league and reduce only the maximum power to fit.

Anyway maybe the best solution short term would be a room owner settable option of power limiter 10% -------- 100%. Just as the other settings for hp etc.

A little bit of power restriction is handy- maybe you want to reduce your PP by 5-10 points, which is basically nothing, it just means you can now enter.



In long term, the PP system needs some work so that unfair cars may never enter, maybe PP within classes IE:
-superlight
-rally
-touring car
-production supercar
-etc

Its probably best to just use something similar to Forza's PI system. That way, an LMP car can never race against a fully tuned 458.

I hardly ever actually race online. I'm mostly in my free run lobby doing hotlaps. I can see the main issue with the limiter since it limits the power, but hardly brings down the PP (but it should cut the PP in half or by 25% at least, right?). I was experimenting with the X1 and bringing it down to 50% power with full downforce (around 960 PP I believe) and I was 2 seconds off from beating the 38 seconds set by a full-power X1 (999 PP?) (TGTT). I was also able to beat a stock Jaguar XJ13 with my 300hp XJ13 (TGTT aswell).

It's fun, but but I agree that PD needs to balance it out a bit. Definitely enjoying the Le Mans prototypes with 450hp though, a lot less wheel spin and a bit more control.

 

[Exorcet]

Its probably best to just use something similar to Forza's PI system. That way, an LMP car can never race against a fully tuned 458.

Isn't PP and PI the same?

I was experimenting with the X1 and bringing it down to 50% power with full downforce (around 960 PP I believe) and I was 2 seconds off from beating the 38 seconds set by a full-power X1 (999 PP?) (TGTT). I was also able to beat a stock Jaguar XJ13 with my 300hp XJ13 (TGTT aswell).

Just did this. A few seconds slower for each 50% limited car. The X1 was noticeably slower, barely able to break 200 mph with 50% power. I'm pretty sure that something was wrong with your test if they were near matches.

X1 - RS tire
38 s vs 43 s

XJ - RH tire
1:09 vs 1:13

 

[nasanu]

I don't understand how the limiter is braking the PP and allowing cars to dominate. Which cars? I have not noticed it at all, in fact all the cars that seem to dominate are all the same ones that did so before the limiter came in. NSX @ 500, LFA @ 550, 458 @ 600 etc.

What cars at what PP?

 

[GeneralJesh]

A race car "power limited" to meet PP regulations will always be faster than a road car maxed out to those regulations.

Same goes for a road car because it will have way more torque and a flat power band.

 

[Sander 001]

I will have to disagree with anyone who says that this isn't a game breaker for online since a detuned car will be faster around the track than its stockish counterpart 99% of the times. (annoying in PP rooms and a joke in HP/Weight rooms)

If that were true then I'd see McLaren F1s and ZR1's winning at 550pp instead of NSX's, Evoras, and M3's. I'd see Gallardos and Ford GTs winning at 575 instead of LFA's. I'd see Murcielagos and Vipers winning at 600 instead of 458 Italias. And so on. And whatever combination of the above.

I don't understand how the limiter is braking the PP and allowing cars to dominate. Which cars? I have not noticed it at all, in fact all the cars that seem to dominate are all the same ones that did so before the limiter came in. NSX @ 500, LFA @ 550, 458 @ 600 etc.

What cars at what PP?

Exactly. Glad to see somebody bring some sense into here.

 

[R.S]

If that were true then I'd see McLaren F1s and ZR1's winning at 550pp instead of NSX's, Evoras, and M3's. I'd see Gallardos and Ford GTs winning at 575 instead of LFA's. I'd see Murcielagos and Vipers winning at 600 instead of 458 Italias. And so on. And whatever combination of the above.

From what I've seen, the people that bring in overpowered cars and majorly tune them down, can't drive so good. The ones that drive well usually use similarly classed cars in the first place and feel ashamed to majorly restrict their cars power to enter a race with a far different vehicle style.

Again either of our arguments do not prove any point, there are of-course cases where either is true, but still it is possible to have unfair entries because of the restrictor.
I'm not talking about bringing in a supercar which has a few more hp than the competitor supercar, I'm talking about bringing in cars from completely different backgrounds.

 

[THEPUNISHER]

Its stupid and game breaker
when i play with my friend we limit the hp to let just say 450 hp they bring a car reduce the power and join the race the thing is with that WHATS THE POINT OF IT

soo yes it is stupid AND game breaker

 

[Exorcet]

Its stupid and game breaker
when i play with my friend we limit the hp to let just say 450 hp they bring a car reduce the power and join the race the thing is with that WHATS THE POINT OF IT

soo yes it is stupid AND game breaker

Well of course that will happen. You're using hp limits. Use PP limits and it won't be a problem.

And the point of it is to allow people to reduce a car's horsespower. It's very useful for a number of reasons. If you're driving with friends, it should be pretty easy to use regulations not built into the game. Ask him not to detune so much (or just use PP).

Overall there isn't really much wrong with the limiter. PD just did not give us a complete options list for online racing. We should be able to specify race car/road car rooms at the very least, and that would make the limiter a non issue.

 

[Sander 001]

From what I've seen, the people that bring in overpowered cars and majorly tune them down, can't drive so good. The ones that drive well usually use similarly classed cars in the first place and feel ashamed to majorly restrict their cars power to enter a race with a far different vehicle style.

Again either of our arguments do not prove any point, there are of-course cases where either is true, but still it is possible to have unfair entries because of the restrictor.
I'm not talking about bringing in a supercar which has a few more hp than the competitor supercar, I'm talking about bringing in cars from completely different backgrounds.

Not a convincing post when assumptions surround vague anecdotes and lack examples.

 

[Peter.]

Its stupid and game breaker
when i play with my friend we limit the hp to let just say 450 hp they bring a car reduce the power and join the race the thing is with that WHATS THE POINT OF IT

soo yes it is stupid AND game breaker

Violating the AUP with that post. You've got to use proper punctuation and capitalization of letters. What it should read is:

It's stupid and a game breaker.
When I play with my friend, we limit the hp to, let's just say 450 hp and they bring a car, reduce the power and join the race. the thing is with that WHATS THE POINT OF IT(don't get what you're trying to say here.)

Now try again with that post and follow my example.

 

[R.S]

Not a convincing post when assumptions surround vague anecdotes and lack examples.

I know, I'm terribly sorry I posted my own anecdotal evidence to compare to your likewise anecdotal evidence.
We've both only seen what we've seen, so don't dis my post, instead counter my anecdotes with your own superior evidence (or further anecdotes to backup your previous anecdote).


I did a quick test laps at Tokyo r246 with ghost:
-Epson NSX, 1:33ish, 719hp, 1150kg, 651pp
-Peugeot 908, 1:30ish, 476hp reduced 66% from 721hp, 930kg, from 704pp to 651pp
That's 3 seconds a lap, yes the NSX was slightly faster on the straights when its revs were up, but the 908 smashes it on the corners hardly having to slow down at all. (3 seconds!?)

Just for some other comparison:
-Nissan GTR full tune, Can't compare, 650ishpp
The GTR would pull away from the NSX at the high end but get slaughtered anywhere else.


I also did another test with similar model cars (on the other side of the argument):
-Raybrig NSX, 1:36ish, 498hp, 1100kg, 595pp
-Epson NSX, 1:36.6ish, 476hp reduced 66% from 719hp, 1150kg, from 651pp to 595pp
Yes the reduced one is slower BUT really only once the Raybrig was allowed to open up on the main straight. The epson is basically on top of the ghost for the rest of the lap. (I think it handles better too)



Take what you will, to me it says PP does not work for every occasion and that the power limiter allows you to abuse that.
The PP formula is the problem (as everyone says)

 

[PHCharls]

game breaker

 

[bloodstriker]

Don't restrict cars by total % of HP, restrict by total % of PP

 

[FishHunters]

Keep in mind for various cars to be even not only do you need to restrict HP but also weight. PP is not great for everything

 

[Exorcet]

I did a quick test laps at Tokyo r246 with ghost:
-Epson NSX, 1:33ish, 719hp, 1150kg, 651pp
-Peugeot 908, 1:30ish, 476hp reduced 66% from 721hp, 930kg, from 704pp to 651pp
That's 3 seconds a lap, yes the NSX was slightly faster on the straights when its revs were up, but the 908 smashes it on the corners hardly having to slow down at all. (3 seconds!?)

Just for some other comparison:
-Nissan GTR full tune, Can't compare, 650ishpp
The GTR would pull away from the NSX at the high end but get slaughtered anywhere else.


I also did another test with similar model cars (on the other side of the argument):
-Raybrig NSX, 1:36ish, 498hp, 1100kg, 595pp
-Epson NSX, 1:36.6ish, 476hp reduced 66% from 719hp, 1150kg, from 651pp to 595pp
Yes the reduced one is slower BUT really only once the Raybrig was allowed to open up on the main straight. The epson is basically on top of the ghost for the rest of the lap. (I think it handles better too)

This to me says that PP and the power limiter is doing a pretty good job. It could probably be improved to even up races like that between the NSX and 908 (which may not be an unfair race at all. What if there are tracks where the NSX is faster? You only tested one track.)

The problem would be allowing the 908 and NSX to race each other. Apparently, they so different that it's difficult to match them without taking the track into account. The 908 corners far better, so as long as there are plenty of corners, it will be competitive.

On the power limiter, the two NSX's were basically neck and neck, exactly as they should be. You probably should have used the exact same car though.

 

[R.S]

I agree all that you say. Just this was a quick test to show a case where PP+limiter can work reasonably and another case where the race becomes impossibly unfair. Not so much the definitive study for the effectiveness of the power limiter and performance point system combination.

How great it would be to know the PP formula! I don't think it's reasonable to crack though, seeing important variables are hidden (drag, data for power curves ie) and possibly others (aero) not to any standard.

 

[zutz]

It should be limited to about 10%.

 

[Obli]

I know, I'm terribly sorry I posted my own anecdotal evidence to compare to your likewise anecdotal evidence.
We've both only seen what we've seen, so don't dis my post, instead counter my anecdotes with your own superior evidence (or further anecdotes to backup your previous anecdote).


I did a quick test laps at Tokyo r246 with ghost:
-Epson NSX, 1:33ish, 719hp, 1150kg, 651pp
-Peugeot 908, 1:30ish, 476hp reduced 66% from 721hp, 930kg, from 704pp to 651pp
That's 3 seconds a lap, yes the NSX was slightly faster on the straights when its revs were up, but the 908 smashes it on the corners hardly having to slow down at all. (3 seconds!?)

Just for some other comparison:
-Nissan GTR full tune, Can't compare, 650ishpp
The GTR would pull away from the NSX at the high end but get slaughtered anywhere else.


I also did another test with similar model cars (on the other side of the argument):
-Raybrig NSX, 1:36ish, 498hp, 1100kg, 595pp
-Epson NSX, 1:36.6ish, 476hp reduced 66% from 719hp, 1150kg, from 651pp to 595pp
Yes the reduced one is slower BUT really only once the Raybrig was allowed to open up on the main straight. The epson is basically on top of the ghost for the rest of the lap. (I think it handles better too)



Take what you will, to me it says PP does not work for every occasion and that the power limiter allows you to abuse that.
The PP formula is the problem (as everyone says)

Did both cars have the same tyres? What is the difference in aero? I assume the 908 can generate more downforce, hence the faster cornering speeds.

We're also comparing different classes of cars here. As an example, I wouldn't expect a PP matched road-going hatchback to lap at similar times to a race-going touring car.

There are so many variables. Characteristics of the car. Different circuits. Different car setups. Hard to compare, really.

EDIT: I like the power limiter. Makes online racing more varied and there is less time spent choosing the right car.

 

[R.S]

Yeah, all on race softs. I think the aero on the NSX is maxed but not sure, 908 is probably stock.


I'm just throwing around thoughts here...

My understanding is that generally cars with massive aero (both downforce and low drag), also have massive hp. So personally I classify cars in my mind by how rediculous their aerodynamics are.

I see massive aero + hp cars having ~700+ PP, this is how these cars are separated from the rest originally, and that works OK, until you mess with it and the cars performance moves into an area that the PP system has not been formulated/designed/optimised for.

The 908 and high power tuned NSX don't have enough separation in points in the first place.

The thing- I don't think PP places enough emphasis on aerodynamics and handling.
I also believe the PP system has too much emphasis on power-weight ratio, and ignores the scale of both.

Another thought would be for two PP values. Derived from the system "virtually" testing the car around various test tracks/corners.
One value would come from the regular style race performance and an average of the times in some style, the other from speed tests(average acceleration until and combined with top speed).



Might I add, Tokyo has quite a long straight and the 908 was still moving on 300kmh. Maybe at daytona or something the NSX would overtake

 

[Sander 001]

I did a quick test laps at Tokyo r246 with ghost:
-Epson NSX, 1:33ish, 719hp, 1150kg, 651pp
-Peugeot 908, 1:30ish, 476hp reduced 66% from 721hp, 930kg, from 704pp to 651pp
That's 3 seconds a lap, yes the NSX was slightly faster on the straights when its revs were up, but the 908 smashes it on the corners hardly having to slow down at all. (3 seconds!?)

Really, out of all the cars in the game you take a 500 or so HP racecar way out of its class by jacking it up to 700+ and you think it should be able to compete with the LMP big boys?

I didn't read the rest. I await the awesome results of a Bugatti Veyron vs a detuned Formula GT.

 

[R.S]

Well I think one should expect two cars with the same PP to perform very close to equal.

In the case of the cars which are largely different in origin, with their PP brought together only by HP modification, one of them is still easily better than the other.
The 908 still has too much HP for the handling advantage it has.

In the case of the test of the cars that are similar anyway (what you didn't read) The results were competitive.



Again, essentially the power limiter is not the problem, but the PP formula is, the power limiter just allows you to abuse that more.

 

[JTT]

Forza, car levels are very nice...

 

[HKS racer]

it is usefull especially if your cars after some time has gained some power but PD should add ASAP what HKS racer said.


well said, 👍
i am really really tired to ask people to change cars.... i set the pp limit to 650 and they pick minolta, gt40, pagani lm, etc etc.....I am saying it out loud wile i set the limit, i write it after setting the limit and is like talking to a wall.
10 people in a room have picked a gt/jgtc car and 2-3 morons picks an LM/LMP/Groop C etc etc...??? what is wrong with them? they think that the rest people in the room are idiots? or dont have a minolta?
At the begging i was asking them to change car, now i kick them instantly.

Yep, and do you know why this is happening? Because in Yamauchi's vision there's no need to categoryze cars and all the players should be "inspired" when they play the game. Well I guess he really never tried a pubblic lobby with 11 years old "inspired" kids. At this time with 1000 cars, GT series need some organization or people will always find a way to exploit them. I don't think their goal was everyone to use a 390GT1 road car in every single time attack, come on. What's the point of 1000 cars if you always use the same? I'm almost done with pubblic lobbies and leaderboards in GT5, I'm getting more fun in arcade mode with stock premium cars, the AI is decent overthere.