The problem with PD/SCE

[analog]

KY seems to think he's producing art. Which, to a degree, is true but, unlike Michelangelo who painted the Pope's roof and walked away, Gran Turismo is "living" art. And it's the community that keeps it alive. This is the part that the PD virtuoso's can't seem to get their head around - without us the game dies.

You go on any other developer website and you can see that they get it. They run forums (proper forums, not that treeview crap they have on gt.com) and they post updates on progress and hold impromptu competitions and stuff to help build the all important "community" and make them feel involved, hell some of the really good developers will even take suggestions and critique from the community onboard and implement them in the game.

PD on the other hand belong to a byegone age. As was glaringly obvious with the online implementation in Prologue, they clearly have no concept of the internet and how it works in relation to playing, discussing and even developing their precious work of art. So they sit in their ivory tower and throw us unwashed rabble a few scraps now and again, like rockstars chucking plectrums and drumsticks into the crowd but there's one major difference - other than the minority of KY fanboys, most of their users couldn't give a toss about the guys on the stage - they just want to play the game and become part of the very community that PD seems to hold in such disdain.

It'll still work as they are the only kid on the block but sooner or later something like Forza might come out on PS3 or 4 and you can bet your bum that even if their cars aren't as shiny and their physics quite as real that, as long as they enter a discourse with the guys who pay their wages and build that grassroots connection, by the time they release their sequel, Gran Turismo will be over.

Well said, the thing they/ we really need is a proper competitor on the same console.
Forza is one thing but to have something like a better follow-up to Enthusia or something similar would force them to climb out of their "ivory tower".
They seem to consider their position as a given and seem to suffer from a superiority complex.
For KY himself becoming somewhat of a celebrity, well although i respect anyone who created something i really enjoyed over the years, you're correct that it's the game i'm interested in only.
For all i care, it was created by a one-eyed monkey called Heinrich...

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

There's a reason monopolies are bad. Right now PD has the monopoly on serious playstation racing sims. I'd welcome a change. Given that Microsoft owns Turn ten and both the X360 and PS3 are loss-leaders I wish somebody would cotton on to the fact that releasing Forza on PS3 wouldn't actually hurt anyone and it'd increase revenue for M$ by a few million units. I'd buy it in a second and I'd put my money on version 4 beating PD at their own game.

 

[craste]

Why are you mad at GTPlanet because neither Sony nor Polyphony Digital provide me with any exclusive information?


Consider the cost. To interview Yamauchi, I'd need to fly to Japan or meet him at a car/game show. The most affordable meeting to arrange would be at E3, SEMA, or CES. Travel expenses would be at least $1,000, while the the extra traffic to the site might bring in $50 in advertising. As much as I'd love do to something like that, I can't take a $950 hit for Yamauchi to dodge questions.

Jordan - you have 130K plus members on this site and we are all itching for information.

You are complaining about a $950 hit? no need we can all take the hit!!!

Why don't you set up a paypal fund to finance a trip for you and somebody off here (you could hold a competition or something to pick the winner) to fly over to japan and visit the PD studios and met with KZ and have the interview to end all interviews - could this not be arranged?

I for one would at a drop of a hat pay £1 to paypal towards this and I'm sure their are many other people on here who would.

Sort it, it will be fun!!!
👍

 

[eSZee]

... is their marketing department or lack thereof.

This is the reason we don't hear updates and release dates and whatnot. Look at their websites. SCEE lists GTPSP as being announced (as opposed to "released" like GT5P. You want to see some screenshots? Head over to the scee press centre and you can look at 3 pictures of the box (two identical) and a banner logo with some words on

Or check out the PD website - it has a spreadsheet!

Okay so granturismo.com is slightly better but, come on, no blog updates since October last year? This is not how we communicate with our (potential)customers in the 21st century!

The simple facts of the matter are that we are starved of info and press releases because no one at Sony has thought to give these poor nerds a marketing department and left the whole thing (by the looks of it) in the hands of either the tea boy or some smelly old mentally impaired tramp who happened to be sitting in a puddle of his own pee, in the street outside their offices, scratching himself and muttering about unicorns.

what you're describing isn't their problem. What you're describing is your problem with them, and a stupid one at that. We have pictures, we have videos, what more do you need for a game that doesn't even have a release date?

 

[Spagetti69]

what more do you need for a game that doesn't even have a release date?

ummmm how about a release date?

 

[eSZee]

do you want them to pull one out of their bums and then delay it again because the game won't be ready?

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

what you're describing isn't their problem. What you're describing is your problem with them, and a stupid one at that. We have pictures, we have videos, what more do you need for a game that doesn't even have a release date?

Just the usual stuff you'd expect from pretty much any other developer.

 

[eSZee]

and what would that be that they haven't given us? Weekly updates of the progress? who does that? I'd rather they put all their resources to work instead of putting people aside in order to show us something new every other week just to satisfy one or two "fans" who don't know any better.

 

[Stonemonkey]

what you're describing isn't their problem. What you're describing is your problem with them, and a stupid one at that. We have pictures, we have videos, what more do you need for a game that doesn't even have a release date?

👍

People are pissed off that they're not showing everything (well much at all) that's in the game and they think they know marketing better than Sony!!! get a grip ffs.

 

[analog]

what you're describing isn't their problem. What you're describing is your problem with them, and a stupid one at that. We have pictures, we have videos, what more do you need for a game that doesn't even have a release date?

First of all it is not a stupid problem since a lot of what is discussed on this forum is due to dubious PD statements, lack of credible info and general disinfo which we, i agree, also partly have ourselves to blame for.

I am a fan of PD-products, have been since 1998, i am loyal for many reasons; the main ones being nothing else delivers an experience quit like it and they were the first and the original and therefor they deserve credit in my book.

Times have changed since 1998 however and they now have the resources ( which we gave them in return for a great product ) to engage, interact and inform the loyal and future consumers on their forthcoming product both in our interest but also their own.

I respect KY, but i'm not really interested in him as a person, i'm interested in his artistic ability, and his views regarding GT and what we can expect and why certain things cannot be expected.

All the journalists seem to be asking the same sort of questions, how hard can it be for him or anyone at PD to do a online Q&A once in a while during the long period it takes to create GT5.

Again i will no doubt love GT5 and respect PD and KY for what they already given us, but once in a while i do get cynical and grumpy about them not being able to communicate with their consumers in an adult and modern way.
If that is regarded as being stupid, so be it.

 

[analog]

and what would that be that they haven't given us? Weekly updates of the progress? who does that? I'd rather they put all their resources to work instead of putting people aside in order to show us something new every other week just to satisfy one or two "fans" who don't know any better.

👍

People are pissed off that they're not showing everything (well much at all) that's in the game and they think they know marketing better than Sony!!! get a grip ffs.

The whole point of a marketing department is to give credible and useful info and get people excited about a product whilst the developers create the product and would therefor not be distracted.
I'm no marketing expert, but anyone with a reasonable set of brains can figure out they're ( both Sony and PD ) not in top form marketingwise recently.

 

[Stonemonkey]

...get people excited about a product...

Seems like their current strategy is doing a damn fine job.

And PD and Sony have absolutely no obligations to anyone to put out pictures or anything for the fans to get themselves off over.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Jordan - you have 130K plus members on this site and we are all itching for information.

You are complaining about a $950 hit? no need we can all take the hit!!!

Why don't you set up a paypal fund to finance a trip for you and somebody off here (you could hold a competition or something to pick the winner) to fly over to japan and visit the PD studios and met with KZ and have the interview to end all interviews - could this not be arranged?

I for one would at a drop of a hat pay £1 to paypal towards this and I'm sure their are many other people on here who would.

Sort it, it will be fun!!!
👍

Besides the fact a trip to Japan would cost a fortune, what exactly do you expect from yet another interview with KY?

I can give you that interview right here, if you like:

Yeah, we don't know yet, we are not sure, maybe, you will not be disappointed, it will be great, no we don't know a release date yet, but it will be fantastic...

want more ?

 

[Stonemonkey]

KZ is his rapper cousin.

 

[analog]

Seems like their current strategy is doing a damn fine job.

And PD and Sony have absolutely no obligations to anyone to put out pictures or anything for the fans to get themselves off over.

No, ofcourse they are not obliged to do anything, there is no law stating they should, only the unwritten laws of consumer satisfaction ( and that doesn't imply getting off over GT-screens ).

It would however be polite and sensible from a marketing point of view to better inform the fans given that they released Prologue as a prologue a couple of years ago implying the full game will arrive shortly after.

That's why i, silly me, assumed i would already be playing it by now.

 

[eSZee]

First of all it is not a stupid problem since a lot of what is discussed on this forum is due to dubious PD statements, lack of credible info and general disinfo which we, i agree, also partly have ourselves to blame for.

I am a fan of PD-products, have been since 1998, i am loyal for many reasons; the main ones being nothing else delivers an experience quit like it and they were the first and the original and therefor they deserve credit in my book.

Times have changed since 1998 however and they now have the resources ( which we gave them in return for a great product ) to engage, interact and inform the loyal and future consumers on their forthcoming product both in our interest but also their own.

I respect KY, but i'm not really interested in him as a person, i'm interested in his artistic ability, and his views regarding GT and what we can expect and why certain things cannot be expected.

All the journalists seem to be asking the same sort of questions, how hard can it be for him or anyone at PD to do a online Q&A once in a while during the long period it takes to create GT5.

Again i will no doubt love GT5 and respect PD and KY for what they already given us, but once in a while i do get cynical and grumpy about them not being able to communicate with their consumers in an adult and modern way.
If that is regarded as being stupid, so be it.

Then why should he care what you have to say about this whole process?
So because you bough their past titles, you somehow feel entitled to get something in return from a forthcoming game? LOL.
Thinking about it, I do retract my statement that PD release new pics and vids like others. They haven't in a while, besides the one last night. However, the GTAcademy is marketing for them. The race pods at museums and game/auto shows are also marketing. They know what they are doing.

It would however be polite and sensible from a marketing point of view to better inform the fans given that they released Prologue as a prologue a couple of years ago implying the full game will arrive shortly after.

wait, what? Polite and sensible aren't part of the money making equation. Although they do have public relations departments to deal with this, I think it's simply not a priority right now.
Neither does "prologue" imply that the full game will be released shortly after wards. If you took it that way, why is it their fault?

 

[Northstar]

Seems like their current strategy is doing a damn fine job.

And PD and Sony have absolutely no obligations to anyone to put out pictures or anything for the fans to get themselves off over.

Of course they aren't obligated to do anything. But if they want to sell more than a couple hundred thousand(mind you it's expected to sell millions since it's a big budget 1st party game) they should probably start doing something.

 

[eSZee]

Of course they aren't obligated to do anything. But if they want to sell more than a couple hundred thousand(mind you it's expected to sell millions since it's a big budget 1st party game) they should probably start doing something.

when they have a firm release date and it gets close to that release date, they probably will.

 

[analog]

So because you bough their past titles, you somehow feel entitled to get something in return from a forthcoming game? LOL.
Thinking about it, I do retract my statement that PD release new pics and vids like others. They haven't in a while, besides the one last night. However, the GTAcademy is marketing for them. The race pods at museums and game/auto shows are also marketing. They know what they are doing.

No, ofcourse i am no more entitled to info, etc. than anyone else, i just meant to say that even a long time fan and loyal supporter can get frustrated ( slightly, there are many more important issues in life ) and i also mentioned it to show a timeline and how modern communication has changed since then, you have to read properly before making assumptions i guess.

And yes the term prologue does imply something to follow soon afterwards.

 

[eSZee]

I read like 3 sentences of what you wrote and saw where it was headed.
No matter how frustrated you are waiting for this game, how frustrating do you think it is on the people who are making the game? They have a date set and are weeks away, just to be told the game is delayed or that they found bugs and they have to spend another few months tweaking it? Or that even though the game is finished, it has to sit on the shelves for months before release. Do you know how hard it is to spend 5 years working on something so major, and when it's done, you can't release it and reap the rewards? Having to wait 6 more months before people can get their hands on your work and tell you what a great job you did?
The whole point of this thread, moaning and whining at PD, is pointless. Pentagram thinks PD owe him or anyone something and that we need to listen to his whining.

 

[analog]

I read like 3 sentences of what you wrote and saw where it was headed.
No matter how frustrated you are waiting for this game, how frustrating do you think it is on the people who are making the game? They have a date set and are weeks away, just to be told the game is delayed or that they found bugs and they have to spend another few months tweaking it? Or that even though the game is finished, it has to sit on the shelves for month before release. Do you know how hard it is to spend 5 years working on something so major, and when it's done, you can't release it and reap the rewards? Having to wait 6 more months before people can get their hands on your work and tell you what a great job you did?

You can't read 3 sentences only and then know where it's going, that's what's called assuming, at least when responding to something have the decency to read it fully, i've read all your posts fully before i responded to them.
Before commenting me on my views regarding their communication you might need to work on your own communication.
I now know not to take your reactions very serious any more, as you pointed out they're based on assumption and prejudice, so thank you.

 

[PzR Slim]

I read like 3 sentences of what you wrote and saw where it was headed.

Dave, how can you make statements like that and expect people to set any store in your opinion? Come on man, you might not agree with what others say but at least give them the respect they deserve by actually reading what they have to say.

I don't think anyone is saying we deserve anything. We are merely pointing out that most major games in this day and age have a huge amount of money and time thrown at their communities. This just doesn't appear to be the case with GT and that is disappointing.

 

[eSZee]

I respond to what I read. Just because I didn't read their whole paragraph, doesn't mean I'm responding to it.
But you're right, it's very douchey of me.

I don't think anyone is saying we deserve anything. We are merely pointing out that most major games in this day and age have a huge amount of money and time thrown at their communities. This just doesn't appear to be the case with GT and that is disappointing.

which games are these?
Gow3 is coming out in a couple of weeks and all I've seen so far is a demo and a few movies, commercials JUST started coming out. COD:MW2 was the same way, as was MAG, BF:BC2, Mass Effect2 didn't show TV commercials til after the game came out. Yes, magazines had coverage on those titles but those games had release dates/periods, set in stone moths before release. A magazine won't run a huge story on GT5 not even knowing if the game will be out in 6 months. None of those games measure up in the anticipation level that I have towards them as opposed to GT5, but right now, it's not bothering me. I'm not gonna make threads telling PD how to do their jobs.

 

[analog]

Dave, how can you make statements like that and expect people to set any store in your opinion? Come on man, you might not agree with what others say but at least give them the respect they deserve by actually reading what they have to say.

I don't think anyone is saying we deserve anything. We are merely pointing out that most major games in this day and age have a huge amount of money and time thrown at their communities. This just doesn't appear to be the case with GT and that is disappointing.

Thank you, you do seem to read before reaching a conclusion.👍

And, yes it's dissapointing, nothing more

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

The whole point of this thread, moaning and whining at PD, is pointless. Pentagram thinks PD owe him or anyone something and that we need to listen to his whining.

Quite the little diplomat aint you? Word of advice - don't try to second guess what people are thinking, especially when you're so far off the mark it's in danger of making you look like a complete muppet.

For the record - I don't think PD owe me anything, since I haven't paid them yet. What I do think is that it's a shame PD don't do what a lot of other developers do and keep a constant flow of blogs, work in progress, interviews and screenshots coming as the development develops.

Their behind-closed-doors, cloak and dagger mentality and depressingly contrived "better than reality" soundbite laden interviews does little to encourage the fans of the series, many of whom become, quite understandably, impatient and frustrated, waiting for some details of the next installment of their favorite video game to materialise.

 

[Northstar]

which games are these?
Gow3 is coming out in a couple of weeks and all I've seen so far is a demo and a few movies, commercials JUST started coming out. COD:MW2 was the same way, as was MAG, BF:BC2, Mass Effect2 didn't show TV commercials til after the game came out. Yes, magazines had coverage on those titles but those games had release dates/periods, set in stone moths before release. A magazine won't run a huge story on GT5 not even knowing if the game will be out in 6 months. None of those games measure up in the anticipation level that I have towards them as opposed to GT5, but right now, it's not bothering me. I'm not gonna make threads telling PD how to do their jobs.

All of those games are completely different to what GT5 is. Those games don't need as big of a marketing timespan since they aren't heavily dependent on content and are pretty much all about the gameplay. However in a racing game it's main selling point is content which can take longer to market. I know there isn't a hard set release date but assuming it really was planned to launch in March we should have had at least a feature list that is as clear as the day(not this 20+ location's and somewhere between 750-1000 cars) and a good number of screen shots and some videos showing features. Instead we have some old screen shots from a build that's who knows how old, some old video from almost a year ago and a feature list that gives us more questions than answers.

 

[Stonemonkey]

All of those games are completely different to what GT5 is. Those games don't need as big of a marketing timespan since they aren't heavily dependent on content and are pretty much all about the gameplay. However in a racing game it's main selling point is content which can take longer to market. I know there isn't a hard set release date but assuming it really was planned to launch in March we should have had at least a feature list that is as clear as the day(not this 20+ location's and somewhere between 750-1000 cars) and a good number of screen shots and some videos showing features. Instead we have some old screen shots from a build that's who knows how old, some old video from almost a year ago and a feature list that gives us more questions than answers.

Show me info on F1 2010.

 

[Northstar]

Show me info on F1 2010.

I wish I could, but CM is about as bad as PD with that game.

 

[PzR Slim]

which games are these?

Ok then, what about TDU2, just announced yesterday with a few screens but a shiny new website that looks as though it will be updated with regular content, the ability to sign up for new info. Look at what codies are doing on their forums in anticipation of F1 2010. Look at how T10 involve their community in the dev process of their games. That is just a few and a little search around the interwebz of big future releases will show you how other developers involve their community. PD don't involve their community in any way shape or form. I'm not saying that we deserve to have this interaction with them but when your peers are doing it, it might be a good idea to do a little yourself. How can it do anything but good for them and the game?

 

[Stonemonkey]

I wish I could, but CM is about as bad as PD with that game.

'about as bad as'? there are no screenshots, no videos, no information about the game and no release date. there is one screen from over a year ago showing some sort of concept art and that is all. There is a codemasters F1 forum but the developers aren't allowed to discuss anything on it so it's ended up just like the topics here.