PS4 The Project Cars Pure Driving Experience Debate

Discussion in 'Project CARS 1' started by TJC_69, Jul 29, 2015.

  1. TJC_69

    TJC_69

    Messages:
    1,510
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I've been thinking about this for a while , hopefully this will not come across as elitism , but I have a question i'd like to ask . Firstly , consider the following -

    Project CARS is advertised as a real racing simulator . It contains advanced physics that try to accurately simulate how a real racing car behaves in every imaginable area of its handling , tyre modelling and damage physics .

    So you know what you're getting before you buy the game . It's not Mario Kart and sure isn't Need For Speed .

    So more often than not I come across new racers , friends and random lobby racers alike . What I alarmingly find is that many of them can't drive with all aids turned off in the game .

    That's right . A racing simulator where people , often experienced racers , tell me they need ABS on an F1 car , because it's too hard to brake properly ...

    I think the problem is this . Many have come from GT and have never bothered to learn how to brake , relying on the ABS system for years on end , never turning it off and finding a suitable and realistically lower than 5/5 setting . Not once . Ever .

    So you're left racing users with driver aids , ( Sometimes ALL aids on ) with them gaining time with the braking advantages etc that brings them , whilst you either turn it on yourself ( In doing so ruining your experience , but trying not to grimace as the ABS makes you feel like you're racing an arcade sim ) , or you just race with like minded racers only .

    I have great battles with some good friends in PCars , all aids off for all , close battling and late braking manoeuvres . So my question is simply this -

    Why buy a simulator if you want to dilute the experience with assists ?
     
  2. Yellowbeard

    Yellowbeard

    Messages:
    313
    Location:
    England
    Because everybody is entitled to play a game they've paid for exactly how they want to (sometimes, online, that should be prefixed with 'unfortunately' lol)

    I personally was firmly ABS1 (only) on GT's and from first playing PCARS have been set to 'real' on driving aids because I want the car to be as near as possible to RL. But it's my game and I'll play it how I like ... as all others are also entitled to do ;)
     
    TJC_69, rams1de, McKiernan and 4 others like this.
  3. svenvangent

    svenvangent

    Messages:
    1,467
    Location:
    Belgium
    Because I go for REAL .;)
    This game suppose to be as REAL as possible .
    If the car has no ABS , breaks , Turbo-injection , wings , 8wheels , netron , I will drive them to .
    And if I really have to I will drive this to:p meisjesfiets_met_zijwieltjes.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  4. David Talle

    David Talle

    Messages:
    853
    Location:
    France
    I go for real too, assists don't do all the job anyway. But yeah assists on an F1 on the Nordeschleife... yeah, these people just aren't the aimed audience of this type of game that's all. That's one of the side effects of the advertising of Project CARS I guess.

    BTW I'm more alarmed by the lobbies settings tyre wear and/or fuel consumption off, you can run 0% radiator and 5L of fuel, that's so biased. :D
     
    TJC_69 and svenvangent like this.
  5. nocturnalgrey

    nocturnalgrey

    Messages:
    536
    Well, that answers that. No one should be told how to play a game, be it from another player or the developer themselves.
     
    McLaren, rams1de and McKiernan like this.
  6. Spooky Wooky

    Spooky Wooky (Banned)

    Messages:
    1,654
    Location:
    England
    This is how I play, real assists... however I play using a wheel, I'm certain that if I was using a pad I would play with ABS on no matter what.

    And yeah, people can play how they like, as long as they're not ramming me off the track... OK, even if they are ramming me off the track. :rolleyes:
     
    TJC_69 and svenvangent like this.
  7. guyr1

    guyr1

    Messages:
    296
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Some people are naturally better at driving than others, and people enjoy the game with or without aids. Developers understand this and design the game accordingly.
     
    TJC_69, nocturnalgrey and rams1de like this.
  8. rams1de

    rams1de

    Messages:
    451
    @TJC_69 comes across as a bit elitist. :sly:

    If the game did not allow assists and was promoted that way, sales would be a fraction of what has been achieved. Support for bug fixes would be significantly reduced and who knows what resources would be available to bring extra features to the game.

    A lot of people will have started playing GT and Forza with all available aids and gradually learned to enjoy driving without any assists. Thankfully the same path is available on Project Cars, accessibility to a wide audience improves the chances of it developing into a brilliant racing franchise.
     
    Tired iron, svenvangent and TJC_69 like this.
  9. David Talle

    David Talle

    Messages:
    853
    Location:
    France
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the point wasn't to ban assists but he was surprised by the ratio of people using assists on a game marketed and sold as serious/realistic.

    You still have the side wheels :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
    svenvangent, TJC_69 and Spooky Wooky like this.
  10. Spooky Wooky

    Spooky Wooky (Banned)

    Messages:
    1,654
    Location:
    England
    :lol: Looks like stability assist to me.
     
    svenvangent, TJC_69 and David Talle like this.
  11. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,660
    As a simulator, Pcars provides simulation of real life electronic assist system ( TCS, ABS ), although in essence the assist in a computer program is the perfect ideal version of real life assist where the real car interact with real world which deals with infinitely random events that are unpredictable in nature. A racing TCS + ABS from GT3 cars in real life are counter acting the nature physical forces ( track condition, driver input, car condition, tire highly varied condition ) and riding on that nature balance of physics, getting the most out of it with probability of unpredictable/varied result ( ABS + TCS do not always in ideal optimal operating efficiency and environment ) The components like sensors, actuating parts ( modulator, actuators ), pumps can get fatigue/wear or in less than optimal operation like running in 24H race.

    In game, all are in zero and ones, all are calculated, a TCS and ABS set at certain settings will always work 100% to it's expected result, as far as I know, no car sim model each assist system as a separate entity with myriad of simulated parameters inside a car model like for example a complex tire model used in Pcars ( SETA ) :). The tire, car and track surface do can change the outcome/effectiveness of the assist, but these variation are not as complex as on the real tire, car and track. You are always in a car with ideal assist system, that runs at 600Hz input + output calculation on all simulation components ( car, track, tire, assist ), even if the assist may "acts" on lower rate at 10-20Hz ( ABS pulse in this case ) as shown using telemetry dump by WMD member. A real life ABS do not deal with unformed sample rate, in real life, from the within ABS system itself, ECU, wheels speed sensors, solenoid valves work with different speed, while other variables exist like the tires which are very high in grip variation, each axle data input, driver input, and ultimately it's limited by the mechanical system ( the brakes mechanism itself ) which will never be as efficient in operation as a brake in a car sim.

    Real ABS and TCS, they are aids that has to adhere to reality of physics, they work just like an engine and suspension would, they always have variation in operation efficiency and results. They wear, they have mechanical in parts, they work slower than that of 100% digital calculation and have to work with myriad of sensors and parameters of physical parts of the car like brake, weight of car + wheel, track, wheelbase, drivetrain, etc in order to be efficient in giving output/action. They need calibration at the very least, they need mapping and on motorsport use, strategies. All these variables leads to very fluid performance that no ABS calibration, map or strategy in a race car can always give the best ideal performance in all situation, there are way too many variables that can not be perfectly taken into account and act upon.

    For example, real life ABS also has activation frequency, which needs to be set well enough in order to be operated efficiently, this highly likely not taken into account in games like Pcars as brake input are different than the real car brake pedal which relied on stroke speed and pedal force. Typical ABS ECU clock speed runs at 125-200Hz, while the wheel speed sensors sample rate can go up to more than 1.7KHz @ 250kmh ( depending on the tooth count and rotation speed/rate ) and solenoid valves ( brake modulator ) with typical response time / switch cycle of 2.8 - 3 miliseconds ( about 357 Hz ), and in the end the mechanical brake system can mostly do 10 - 20 times per second. In game, the ABS physics on Pcars for example runs at 600Hz with no other physical limitation, although the game ABS do "act" at similar pulse, 10-20 times per second on a 100Hz sample rate telemetry dump that was posted on another thread. Still curious if the same test done again with higher ( 600Hz ) sample rate telemetry.

    IMO, I felt that Pcars ABS can be called super ABS, even if it "acts" or apply the anti locking on similar pulse rate as real life system, it's underlying calculation, from data input ( similar to sensors IRL ) are on the same rate as the physics engine at 600Hz and with no variation in operation effectiveness, and more than likely a simplified model compared to the real ABS system being simulated, it's just too perfect for a "real" assist.

    So in short, real assist in a simulator like Pcars is as real as a computer program made to aid you by making calculation ( often simplified in simulated model ) that always yields the "expected" result from the assist design specs or level it was programmed into.

    More questions :
    What sort of ABS system model is used in Pcars ( channels, yaw sensors, EBD integration ) ? The same on all cars ? Do road cars like FQ400 has car specific ABS system modeled ? The real FQ400 or Evo X has 4 channel sports calibrated ABS with EBD which should perform with more stability in mind compared to GT3 race cars ABS which can be set for more braking force performance / deceleration. To me, from my short play time on PS4, road cars like FQ400, R8 may have almost perfect race car level ABS in Pcars. Tested it for a few laps and some straight line hard stops + turning panic stops, then disabled all assist.

    I may not be correct on my write up on ABS, it's been awhile since I dealt with the subject :p Happy to be corrected or if anyone with more insight gives more information on both real and Pcars ABS. Will be glad too, if I can get the ABS telemetry ( antilockactivate ) from road cars like FQ400 with 600Hz sample rate on summer tire ?

    Many GT6 players still believe that ABS in that game is a representative of real life ABS and some still use that as an excuse to use it :) It's simply a brake assist.
     
    svenvangent and TJC_69 like this.
  12. TJC_69

    TJC_69

    Messages:
    1,510
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Thanks for your opinions so far guys , they are all appreciated . I drive all the cars with zero assists in game , even the ones that have those options in real life . This is because I want to experience the purest and raw version of what each individual car , and what it can and cannot do . In real life these cars will have options to turn the traction control and ABS on or off , and if you remember Top Gear you will also remember The Stig never had any aids on . In even the most brutal and aggressive cars he drove :tup:

    I use DS4 currently also . So the joypad is no excuse in my world :gtpflag:
     
  13. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

    Messages:
    28,465
    Location:
    Canada
    I had the same reaction to Assetto Corsa when I first delved into the sim market last year. I was running some laps using RSR Live Timing, then looking up my results. I had just assumed that sim = realistic aids and was surprised to find people using ABS, TC and other aids none existed in real life and AC is aimed exclusively at the sim market. To each his own though, I still made my assault on the TT boards using whatever aids came with the real car and there were enough on the boards like me to compare to which is all that matters for comparison IMO.
     
    Cote Dazur, David Talle and TJC_69 like this.
  14. OzOldTimer

    OzOldTimer

    Messages:
    106
    Frankly, I don't agree with any of the elitist posturing about not using aids. I play these games for fun, not to be frustrated beyond belief because some elitist wants to set the bar to a level that most can't reach. I am not in training for next years le Mans or even a go-kart meeting, I just like to play the games. These games will never really be a true simulator for me because I can't afford to go that far. In any case that's not why I play.
    If I invest $60 on the game (on special), $800 on a reasonably suitable PC, $600 on a frame and seat and $300 on a G27 then guess what, I'll adjust the settings the developer provides any way I damn well please. While iRacing is probably the closest I have experienced to a decent simulator it still doesn't really make me feel like I am driving a car when I am sitting in my rig. As far as PCars goes it was worth the money I paid for it but I consider it just an average game which is incomplete and full of bugs. I am having some fun playing it but, I repeat, it is incomplete and full of bugs IMHO. PCars, GT and iRacing are just distractions when I am not working like Solitaire or Sudoku but more expensive.
    Oh, and by the way, my real daily ride has ABS as standard and from a safety standpoint, I wouldn't dream of turning it off. Cheers
     
  15. TJC_69

    TJC_69

    Messages:
    1,510
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I wouldn't say that my surprise of people using driver aids is in any way elitist posturing . My point overall is the surprise of even seasoned racers in weekly race teams that I know well , ( This particular one I have contact with just signed a deal with Machima ) , insisting that they run races with ABS and TC available for their members . I'm fine with new players using aids , ( See how i'm not an elitist posturer ? ) , but the host here runs a T300 and uses ABS , 24/7 . He's no new comer to racing series either .

    I personally dislike the ABS feel of this game , I can blast full throttle down the straight , brake at the verrrrrrry last second with it on , quick turn in and i'm away . Easy . Just like that . No skill involved in just standing on the pedal for me whatsoever . Who do you think will win the race ? The guy running TC and ABS , or the other guy running nothing at all ?

    And yeah of course i've driven cars in real life with both ABS , non powersteering / with powersteering etc . But in those cars I can't say i've ever competed to see who gets to work the fastest and wanted a level playing field :)
     
  16. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

    Messages:
    28,465
    Location:
    Canada
    People sharing their views =/= elitist posturing.
     
    TJC_69 likes this.
  17. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,660
    All this elitist thinking would less likely to happen if games like Pcars and GT do not use the ABS and TCS term, instead simply use the basic term of brake assist and traction assist.
     
    TJC_69 and svenvangent like this.
  18. David Talle

    David Talle

    Messages:
    853
    Location:
    France
    You're so mislead thinking there's any elitism on this thread.
     
    TJC_69 likes this.
  19. nocturnalgrey

    nocturnalgrey

    Messages:
    536
    Quoted for truth, with emphasis in bold.

    I always looked at myself as a decent "sim" driver. I understand the who-what-where-why of the entire picture, but I never realized how slow I was until GT Academy came out a few years ago.

    I keep playing games like GT, FM and PC because I have fun doing so and also due to how I know deep down that I will never drive a machine on a track in real life like I do in these games.

    There are times where I just want to fly around the 'Ring and if these "non-pro" aids help me get there, it's all good.
     
    TJC_69 likes this.
  20. TJC_69

    TJC_69

    Messages:
    1,510
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Absolutely . Have you ever tried driving the 'Ring without aids ? I find it very rewarding and it is invaluable in the lessons it can teach you in being more confident with your own skills . GT5 was the first ever online driving game I ever played . " I'll be fast " I thought , no problem . Boy was I wrong .

    However I found some really good friends online , played often , and learnt where I needed to improve . Gradually I carried on getting faster , and today any situation I find myself in when driving online or off is a natural and reactive reflex to what the car throws at me . I'm not an alien , but did well in GT academy '15 with being on a DS3 .

    Just takes practice . One of the biggest aspects of driving fast is confidence . I'd refer anyone to Jenson Buttons championship year in 2009 when he tensed up mid season as a good example of that .
     
    nocturnalgrey likes this.
  21. nocturnalgrey

    nocturnalgrey

    Messages:
    536
    Yes. I have driven with and without assists in GT and FM on nearly every track. Some days, I challenge myself, while others I do nothing more then have fun.

    Practice...That is something I rarely have time for anymore. My gaming has turned into a hobby that is limited by the time I have which sometimes is little to nothing at all. I am active when a new racing game comes out but as time progresses, I fade off or find something else to do.

    Games are all about an escape and having fun to me.
     
  22. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

    Messages:
    28,465
    Location:
    Canada
    Seems like if you just mention that you prefer to drive without driver aids you're labeled an "elitist" these days. God forbid you're actually enthusiastic about it. :crazy: I feel sad for the internet sometimes...:(
     
    TJC_69 likes this.
  23. TJC_69

    TJC_69

    Messages:
    1,510
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yup . The difference would be actually disrespecting anyone who does use assists . That's how I would define elitism in regards to the issue .

    However I suspect people are not fully understanding my OP when I say -

    But yeah , Internets . Some may feel they are being attacked for it which is not the case . GT is responsible for many bad habits within the sim community , braking being the biggest in my opinion .
     
  24. NLxAROSA

    NLxAROSA Premium

    Messages:
    7,898
    Location:
    Netherlands
    On my PC with my G27 I use no assists, except ABS on cars that have it (so no ABS on cars that don't have it IRL). However, when I go for a quick lap with the Xbox 360 controller on my laptop, I usually keep the ABS on and add a bit of TC (on any car, regardless of real life), mainly because I just can't spend the same time on getting to grips with the controller as I do with the wheel, I just want to go for a quick lap of fun. It's based on available time really.

    A thing to keep in mind is that some race classes actually do have assists (TC, ABS), like @Ridox2JZGTE already mentioned, so if you really want to keep it real, the assists should always be on 'real' and not 'off'. Then again keeping it on 'real' means you have ESP, TC and ABS on road cars, which seems a bit too much hand-holding for when you're on the track. On a public road you'd probably keep them on, but when taking it to a track day you would surely turn off the TC and ESP. Most modern road cars won't allow turning off ABS.

    So IMO the most realistic is to stick with the assists that would be used in real life (so not necessarily everything off). Keeping everything off at all times is just hardcore. :D
     
    Spooky Wooky, TJC_69 and David Talle like this.
  25. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

    Messages:
    11,660
    I would call all off as pure :)
     
    TJC_69 likes this.
  26. thegt500

    thegt500

    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Back in the days of GT6, I used to have ABS on 1 or 2 dependant on car, and TC set to 1 on powerful RWD cars (TC was off for low powered RWD and all FWD and 4WD cars) as I found it helped me with corner entry and exit.
    Fast forward to my first day with pCARS and I was determined to have the 'purest' experience by having driving aids set to real from the get-go.
    Please don't get me wrong and label me 'elitist' I'm not an expert sim racer, far from it in fact, its just I wanted to try a 'cold turkey' approach in weaning me off using driving aids after GT5 and GT6. My first impression was, WOW !!!!, I can actually control aa RWD or MR drive car quite quickly without crashing which was my experience in GT5~6.
    As a test, when the Bentley Speed 8 DLC was released, I decided to do a back to back test on Le Sarthe between GT6 and pCARS. Both cars in their respective games were in their default, un tuned state, using racing hard tyres. My findings were quite profound.
    In GT6 I couldn't even get past the first chicane without spinning out, whereas in pCARS I could not only take the same chicane without spinning, but it also felt much, much better (using a TM T300RS wheel).
    I then tried GT6 with my usual ABS and TC set to 1 and then I was able to control the Bentley again, but it was slower as the TC was limiting acceleration, but without TC, it was (to me), un controllable. In pCARS though, no matter what car I use, it is a lot more controllable without TC and more importantly, faster.
     
    TJC_69 likes this.
  27. FS7

    FS7

    Messages:
    1,117
    Location:
    Brazil
    I started playing PCars with all aids off then changed to realistic aids. In other games I play either with all aids off or ABS at minimum.
    I don't mind other people using aids when playing on their own, but I do encourage people to disable aids. However, not everybody has time or patience to practice and learn to drive without aids, that's why developers include aids in their games, to make the game more approachable to casual players.
    I don't play PCars online, but when playing other games online I generally create my own lobby and ban aids. I wish developers would make separate leaderboards for aids/no aids players.
     
    TJC_69 likes this.
  28. Spooky Wooky

    Spooky Wooky (Banned)

    Messages:
    1,654
    Location:
    England
    Speaking of the "experience" I really enjoy the challenge of trying to control the cars that naturally don;t have any assists. I'm not very quick, but it doesn't dampen my enjoyment.
     
    Yellowbeard and thegt500 like this.
  29. thegt500

    thegt500

    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Try the Ford MkIV on Nurb using realistic settings then :D its a bit 'challenging' LOL
     
  30. Spooky Wooky

    Spooky Wooky (Banned)

    Messages:
    1,654
    Location:
    England
    Funny you should say that, I was driving (trying to) drive the MkIV in an invitational today. Don't think I'm ready for the Nurb in it quite yet.

    Had a funny online race with the Merc 300SEL using real assists round Nordschleife. It's such a :censored: to drive. Like arguing with a Rottweiler!
     
    thegt500 likes this.