The Red Bull Civil War

prisonermonkeys

prisonermonkeys

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It seems that Red Bull are trying their darndest to stage a small re-enactment of Chernobyl. After the test-run in Istanbul, tensions within the team seem to be coming to a head after the British Grand Prix, with Mark Webber still upset over it despite dominating the race:

Mark Webber says he would not have signed a contract extension with Red Bull Racing had he believed he was going to be treated the way he was at Silverstone this weekend.
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Full story

So, could this melt down into a feud in the vein of Hamilton and Alonso, or Senna and Prost? If internal strife costs Red Bull a chamionship, you can expect Vettel or Webber to be standing in line at the jobs office for 2011.

Discuss.
 
Hmmm - pretty sure that Vettel won't be needing a new job for a few years...

If I were a betting man - I'd say that Mark Webber won't be at RB next year - as I'm sure he'll have get out clauses that he could enact about 2nd driver status etc.

C.
 
yeti
Hmmm - pretty sure that Vettel won't be needing a new job for a few years...

If I were a betting man - I'd say that Mark Webber won't be at RB next year - as I'm sure he'll have get out clauses that he could enact about 2nd driver status etc.

C.
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and where is he going to go if he does get out?
 
J-PaP
and where is he going to go if he does get out?
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I would of said Ferrari had it not been for Massa having a contract until 2012, maybe he will be staying for another year and if relations don't improve in RBR and Massa continues to be pretty poor I could see the switch then.
 
The whole wing fiasco was stupid. It could have been avoided if they'd brought four sets of the new piece with them (given that front wing damage is quite common this season, why wouldn't you prepare for the possibility?).

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Regarding RBR's bias towards Vettel, thinking about it from a coldly logical standpoint, they're right.

RBR is putting its support behind the driver they see to have the bigger future. Vettel is younger, and seems to be the faster driver. He's passionate and energetic and the perfect poster boy for Red Bull... a rising start they can hold on to for several more seasons (and possible championships) beyond this.

Webber is already 34 (almost one year younger than moi...)... not that old, but sports years are like dog's years. He's got around ten years on Vettel. He's at the point where you know that he's not going to be a front-running driver for much longer.

(Yes, there are exceptions... but in the end... do you gamble on a guy whose shelf life you're unsure of, or a proven future star?)

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Still sucks for Webber. He's driven a good season, and he's shown himself to be quicker than Vettel at times, and much more steady over race distances (except for that whole Valencia thing, he's kept his nose pretty clean this season...). He deserves better, but RBR isn't McLaren, and they're not going to treat their championship contenders equally. (although whether McLaren ever treated Kovalainen as an equal is debatable)

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Speaking of Mclaren... there are articles suggesting that the possible forthcoming bust-up between Hamilton and Button aren't quite as inevitable as some outsiders suggest. Insider reports seem to indicate that they truly do get along well. While they're close on points, their styles, strategies and strengths complement each other, rather than clash. It's not quite the same as the Hamilton-Alonso season... as that had two gigantic egos on one team... I think Button's calm manner and his "team-player" mentality serve as the perfect counterpoint to Hamilton's brash driving.

Webber? He doesn't have the benefit of having won a World Championship. He certainly brings a Button-style maturity to the team, but he's still hungry to win. And when you have two drivers who are hungry to win, who have similar pace and who have a legitimate shot at a championship... well... I'm glad I'm not Christian Horner. :lol:
 
It wasn't a bright move by the team to take Webber's wing and give it to his team mate however, I don't think that necessarily defines the stance of the team in regard to favouritism.

In some ways, these two drivers complement each other quite well; Vettel appears to need the constant reassurance and acknowledgement in order to keep him in his sweet spot, Webber is a far more stubborn and self assured character and seems to perform better when he feels he's been mistreated.

My armchair psychology aside, I think any favouritism comes from powers above the race team and if any thing, my sympathies go to Horner who, as the BBC team said today, is caught between a rock and a hard place.

I don't think the driver rivalry at Red Bull is as intense as that of Alonso - *place your pick of his team mates here*. But then again, you don't get any coverage of them hanging out like you do of the two McLaren guys.
 
Fastas
It wasn't a bright move by the team to take Webber's wing and give it to his team mate however, I don't think that necessarily defines the stance of the team in regard to favouritism.
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This is exactly it - I think Brundle said that its not so much that they swapped wings, more how they chose to explain this to the drivers and to the public.

Red Bull have been handling their PR terribly basically. I think they have single-handedly thrown most people's support in favour of Webber just to "stick it to them".
 
Even though the favouritism thing hit a peak this weekend, it sort of worked.

Webber still got his win with the old wing and Vettel, with the new wing, had a very slight edge in performance which probably contributed to him making his way back through the field towards the end. If Vettel had the old wing and Webber retained the new wing, would things have been different? I think it probably would have turned out worse for the team. Webber was always going to dive down the inside of Vettel, he's been wanting to do that ever since Malaysia.

Or, it was just 'Karma' as Webber put it.
 
J-PaP
and where is he going to go if he does get out?
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Renault? Williams? Mercedes?

Each of those teams would be able to find a seat for him - and I think each of those teams will have a better year next year...

C.
 
yeti
Renault? Williams? Mercedes?

Each of those teams would be able to find a seat for him - and I think each of those teams will have a better year next year...

C.
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All of them are a step down from Red Bull though. Why would you go for anything other than a Newey-car right now?
I think Button has also proven its better to be in a competitive team and have to contend with a strong teammate than settle for a team where you are in a dominant position as team-leader.

Mercedes are more likely to retain Schumacher and if not use Heidfeld (or I hope they do at least).
Renault is a possibility as they are still reviewing Petrov. Kubica is worse to beat than Vettel though.
Williams is a big step down and again Barrichello is difficult to beat.
I'm pretty sure that Williams and Mercedes are going to retain their line-ups. The top teams are all pretty much locked out except Renault which is why Kubica isn't going anywhere.
 
Indeed - it would definitely be a step down...

Merc seem to be the closest rival with space (but who knows about next year of course?!)

C.
 
yeti
He's the quickest man in the world....

C.
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Well if the world cup can be decided in extra time, surely the F1 can be decided in a Suzuki Liana...
 
yeti
Hmmm - pretty sure that Vettel won't be needing a new job for a few years...
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You have a point there. My personal nickname for Vettel is "Schumi Junior," seeing as he's German and he, like Schumacher, is a great driver. If he retires without winning a title I will eat my stinkiest shoe.
 
Red Bull were the last drivers to leave after the race, and Webber was not happy. For a race winner and a personality that is considered very friendly he stormed out of a back exit from the paddock around 8:30, long after many teams. As he walked past the gathering crowd he signed a few autographs but didn't show the emotion or banter that a race winner usually would.


Adrian Newey came out around 7 and we asked about Webber's comments, 'Not bad for a number 2 driver'. Adrian said 'They are making something out of nothing' and seemed very calm on the subject. He left the paddock for a 2nd time with Christian around 8, after what we can only guess was a meeting. Christian was, as always very calm and calculated on everything, signed the autographs, quipped answers to questions and then left.

I don't think Webber is a very happy camper, and It wouldn't surprise me if he got a good talking too for his words after the race.
 
I lolled at Vettel's post-race interview with the BBC, when the interviewer mentioned Webber's "2nd driver" comment, it seemed that Vettel hadn't heard about it yet - or at the very least, hadn't had time to be handed a sanitized script to read out in stead of an off-the-cuff answer, which is what he ended up giving... clearly, Vettel's English is not 100% perfect, so perhaps he could be forgiven for making it sound like he was calling Webber two-faced, but intentional or not, it was a rather amusing faux-pas on an already fraught day for the team. Webber's comment on winning the race was direct and honest, but arguably quite ill-advised - but nevertheless, it must rank as one of the best quotes in F1 this season*, and by quite some margin.

The interview between the BBC crew (Jake Humphrey, DC and Eddie Jordan) and Christian Horner was simply excruciating. I thought they were being a bit harsh, given that it should have been a day of great triumph for Horner, but all he got was questions about the Webber-Vettel rancour... that said, Eddie Jordan was bang on the money when he repeatedly suggested that Horner's attempts to deny favouring Vettel were horse excrement.

* I forgot - this weekend also provided another classic quote, from one of the BBC pitside crew, who accidentally said "Vetter and Webbel"....
 
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Hmm, well I was actually quite happy to see Eddie Jordan grilling Horner like that. Although as Brundle said later, Horner is probably only the fall guy, he is just the one who has to answer the media.
To be fair, the BBC did attack Whitmarsh on similar terms before too, the difference is Whitmarsh knows what he is doing. Horner seems to struggle to say the right thing basically. He says "we treat them equally" but then admits "one wing is worth 1 tenth", therefore it is not equal is it?

The stupid thing is, if Red Bull had come out and said "we are sending all the updates to Vettel first as he is leading" and never mentioned team equality, it would be relatively fine. But coupled with the rediculous Webber-blame game they played at Turkey, they are showing their true colours. I can only point to McLaren last year as an example - they admitted quite freely they were sending updates to Lewis well ahead of the races and discussed it openly with Kovalainen. They didn't suddenly start taking new parts off Heikki's car midway through a race weekend and claim they were giving equal treatment.

I can't believe Red Bull still haven't sorted this out. Do they want to win the championship or not? As the driver relationship spirals out of control, its just going to get worse not better. Horner likes to say its good because he has two drivers who want to win rather than one who doesn't mind losing, but its not really worthwhile when they start to distrust the team and bring so much intense scrutiny.

For me Red Bull will be lucky to win either championship because they are badly managing this situation.
 
See, this is why I hate F1 coverage being shown on lame arse FOX. Too many commercial breaks, they totally skip over the interviews (only giving condensed "highlights", which aren't even enough to smile or frown at) and Bob is usually forced (or at least it kind of seems that way) to talk about Baseball whenever the advert comes up OVER the race while it's happening.

In any case, that's not the point of me posting here (well, in a way it is), I don't really know what to make of the situation because I don't have enough facts (thank you, FOX) I've read a couple of articles on the net but they all seem to convey the same train of thought. Basically, I'm asking for a rundown from anyone who watched the event on BBC, or any other channel that's not related to FOX.
 
Newey didn't seem bothered whatsoever to be honest. They don't seem to realise the seriousness of this all.
 
Terronium-12
See, this is why I hate F1 coverage being shown on lame arse FOX. Too many commercial breaks, they totally skip over the interviews (only giving condensed "highlights", which aren't even enough to smile or frown at) and Bob is usually forced (or at least it kind of seems that way) to talk about Baseball whenever the advert comes up OVER the race while it's happening.

In any case, that's not the point of me posting here (well, in a way it is), I don't really know what to make of the situation because I don't have enough facts (thank you, FOX) I've read a couple of articles on the net but they all seem to convey the same train of thought. Basically, I'm asking for a rundown from anyone who watched the event on BBC, or any other channel that's not related to FOX.
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Basically, Red Bull brought a new front wing design for this race (reportedly 1 tenth faster). They had only built 2, so each went on each car on Friday, 1 for Vettel, 1 for Webber.
During Saturday practice, Vettel's front wing mounting failed and his wing was damaged. Rather than use the spare old wing, the one which is a tenth slower, they chose instead to take Webber's new wing off and put it on Vettel's car "for the championship". This is after Webber has completed his setup work with that wing.

Hence, Webber was pretty angry this weekend.
Combine it with Turkey and well, the clear Vettel-favouritism is for all to see. Helmut Marko and the drinks company clearly want their man Vettel to win and not the loud Aussie who happened to be driving for them before Vettel came in. The reason is Red Bull want to be able to say they helped Vettel all the way to winning an F1 title, it would be great PR for their corporation and image. Webber was never involved with the Red Bull junior programme so his victory wouldn't be as sweet to them.
At least, thats what we are all guessing is why they favour Vettel, because otherwise it makes no sense at all. Webber is clearly as good if not better than Vettel. Both are inconsistent drivers with their own weaknesses, and both deserve a shot at the title.
 
In other words, Red Bull may very well give you wings, but they may also take them back off you and give them to someone else...
 
Okay. I've gotten all of that, thanks. What happened during the interviews?

Aside from that, from what I've seen all season thus far, Webber seems to be more consistent then Vettel. Today was no different, actually, let me rephrase that...today was different. I'm under the assumption that Webber took the victory as well as he did simply to say "FU" to them. I want Webber to win because he's a damn good driver, so I'll admit there may be a smidgen of bias on my behalf, but I'm still not a hardcore fan of anyone as I haven't been watching consistently enough to a favorite - not the way I've been looking at things anyway. Still, Vettel is really quick and all, but I honestly see Webber as the better driver (all possible bias aside). If this continues to some extent I can see Webber parting ways and going to another team. I'm sure Ross (if he could) would snatch him up in a heartbeat.
 
The Red Bull team boss, Hohner, justified the front-wing decision partly by saying that there was no difference between the performance in terms of time. But then why was it such a difficult decision? Clearly they knew there was some time-advantage using the new wing. Otherwise they would have known how much trouble would be caused with the decision, and would have backed out of it.

For me, Vettel is the no.1 driver. I think he's marginally a more talented driver. Had Vettel not had those failures early in the season, he would have been even further ahead of Webber.

I agreed with the team's stance after Turkey. It seemed to me like the drivers were trying to commit kind of team-suicide then. This weekend, the team were trying to commit team suicide.

* * *

Just to reply to a couple of points:

Brawn would consider Webber, but there'll be big figures in Mercedes who will want a young German (Hulkenberg or so) instead. If Webber goes anywhere, most likely Renault, or Force India (not sure about their contracts though).

I don't agree that Webber is more consistent. Vettel has had a number of car failures and other bad luck.

Bahrain: P4 - Spark plug problem (should have won otherwise)
Australia: DNF - Torque drive problem (should have won otherwise)
Spain: P3 - Pit error + brake problem (would have been 2nd place)
Britain: P7 - Lap-1 puncture

In Turkey, with the Webber collision, Vettel seemed to momentarily lose all of his talent! Apart from that, when you analyse the races and results, he's been the better driver and should be well ahead of Webber on points.
 
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Alan_G
I agreed with the team's stance after Turkey. It seemed to me like the drivers were trying to commit kind of team-suicide then. This weekend, the team were trying to commit team suicide.
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I didn't, and I still don't. Everyone on that track knows Webber is extremely tough to overtake (and as I've jokingly been saying to a couple of friends lately) without trying to commit suicide. I'm not going to say Vettel was in the wrong for trying to overtake him, but he knows Webber wasn't going to just let him pass easy-peasy. It almost seems that Vettel is getting a swelled head and/or is taking Webber lightly....which is just a big fat NO.

Again, thanks for the info on the situation at hand...please, if there's anything else let me know, or if there's a couple of pages on the net somewhere, then please, link me to 'em....because I can't find any articles that aren't very different from the previous four I've read thus far.
 
After reading the previous posts and seeing what has been happning, if RB lose either title this year it will be all on them, personally i'd be happy if Webber wins the title as hes done it tougher than Vettle Mark has been in teams with not so flash equipment or at the right time, Sebastian on the other hand has been mollycoddled by red bull, since hes been in f1
 
Why can't they resolve this like gentlemen?

With a chase through the streets of London with their F1 cars, driving under trucks like in Driven. Illegal? Check. Insane? Check. Totally, awesomely badass? Check check check.
 
TheBigMan045
Sebastian on the other hand has been mollycoddled by red bull, since hes been in f1
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Because Vettel has always been their man. He was found through the Red Bull Young Driver Program, and he is their greatest success. They want to win World Championships, and they want Vettel to be the man do to it.
 
So, basically none of us here are contesting the likelihood that Red Bull is favoring Vettel over Webber?

Judging by the events that took place today, er, yesterday...Vettel won't be able to get anywhere near Webber, and he'll continue to flip them off with victory after victory. Honestly, I wouldn't at all be surprised if he just stopped caring.
 
Terronium-12
So, basically none of us here are contesting the likelihood that Red Bull is favoring Vettel over Webber?
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After Turkey and this, it's hard to say otherwise. Though of course it's not everyone at Red Bull.

Terronium-12

Judging by the events that took place today, er, yesterday...Vettel won't be able to get anywhere near Webber, and he'll continue to flip them off with victory after victory. Honestly, I wouldn't at all be surprised if he just stopped caring.
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What events? the tire puncture?

I'm sure Vettel has it in him to get more good results. Mark Webber will be just a bit more motivated to win now.
 
ROAD_DOGG33J
After Turkey and this, it's hard to say otherwise. Though of course it's not everyone at Red Bull.

What events? the tire puncture?

I'm sure Vettel has it in him to get more good results. Mark Webber will be just a bit more motivated to win now.
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Yes, exactly that. It seems like karma, but a bit unwarranted all at the same time. I mean, it isn't Vettel's fault that he's being favored over Webber...of course, that's not how he'll see things. As I've already said, I want Mark to win and there's no getting around it...but I like Vettel as well and I really wouldn't want team favoritism to drive a wedge between the two of 'em.

Or, maybe I'm still too much of a young gun when watching F1 is concerned as I'm looking at everything....from a different perspective.
 
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