The Red Bull Civil War

Something that I didn't quite catch in the post race chit chat, what with everyone focusing on the "Not bad for a No. 2 driver" comment, did Mark also ask for one of the members of his side of the garage to accept the constructors race trophy? I think he might have. Additionally, does anyone else think that Christian Horner sounded almost dejected on team radio, not like someone who's driver has just won a sensational Grand Prix? I'll take it all with a grain of salt, but this weekend Mark said after qualifying "I think the team is happy with the result today", and also seemed to only congratulate "his side of the garage". I think we won't see a Prost-Senna or Piquet-Mansell or anything like that. I think that this could be more like Rossi-Lorenzo. It doesn't bode well for either driver, but frankly, I think that Vettel is being sheltered und Marko's wing a bit too much, while Webber is getting little support from higher management.
 
Terronium-12
So, basically none of us here are contesting the likelihood that Red Bull is favoring Vettel over Webber?
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Actually, I am. I believe they are favouring Vettel over Webber for now, but now that Webber has taken the championship lead, he'll get the preferential treatment.

See, the biggest problem with Red Bull's title challenge last year was that they never seized the initiative. Jenson Button took seven victories in six races, but once it became clear that Brawn were not bulletproof, Red Bull looked like the most likely candidates for challenging them. The problem was that Webber and Vettel were too busy taking points out of one another to mount a serious challenge. There comes a point where they have to decide who is going to spearhead the team's efforts, but they didn't do that. By the time Webber was out of the 2009 title fight, it was the Singapore Grand Prix. Far too late for them to get their act together. I believe that Red Bull have realised that and have reached the point where they have to favour one driver. In Silverstone, they were forced to make a choice because they only had one new wing: Vettel was ahead on points, so he got the new parts. Now that Webber is ahead, he'll most likely get preferntial treatment if Red Bull are in a similar situation.
 
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Actually, I am. I believe they are favouring Vettel over Webber for now, but now that Webber has taken the championship lead, he'll get the preferential treatment.

See, the biggest problem with Red Bull's title challenge last year was that they never seized the initiative. Jenson Button took seven victories in six races, but once it became clear that Brawn were not bulletproof, Red Bull looked like the most likely candidates for challenging them. The problem was that Webber and Vettel were too busy taking points out of one another to mount a serious challenge. There comes a point where they have to decide who is going to spearhead the team's efforts, but they didn't do that. By the time Webber was out of the 2009 title fight, it was the Singapore Grand Prix. Far too late for them to get their act together. I believe that Red Bull have realised that and have reached the point where they have to favour one driver. In Silverstone, they were forced to make a choice because they only had one new wing: Vettel was ahead on points, so he got the new parts. Now that Webber is ahead, he'll most likely get preferntial treatment if Red Bull are in a similar situation.
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Really?

I think that my opinion is irrelevant, being Australian and therefore biased, but Vettel has probably become rather arrogant-he thinks he can get away with moves like at Turkey and Silverstone. He seems not to think ahead that much-what effect there might be, what the consequence of his action might be.

He also seems to have alienated many in the paddock-I wouldn't be surprised if, later in the season, people might make Webber's life easier than Seb's on the track.
 
IMO, it is inappropriate to make the call to favour one driver over the other when they are so evenly matched, and if that is what Red Bull have done (and it looks pretty obvious to me), then I reckon they've made a serious mistake. I wouldn't say that Vettel was any more arrogant than most F1 drivers, but he does have one definite character difference to Webber - immaturity.
 
I just thought while re-watching Seb's move at the start of yesterday's GP, "Does the bloke think it is 1990 at Suzuka? Its Jenson and Lewis in the maccas..."
 
I think its fair enough to make a call on favouring one driver at a point in the season where its clear one driver has severly reduced chances. For example, Mercedes would probably put the upgrades on Rosberg right now if only one is available because Schumacher is so far behind (with little signs of improving). Same for Alonso at Ferrari.
But in this situation or the Jenson-Rubens one last year, you cannot favour one over the other because the difference is so small. You can't predict the future, though certainly by favouring one driver you are manipulating it.

There was no reason to swap those wings even if the difference was 2 seconds or something rediculous. Webber was only 12 points behind and thats nothing in today's points system.

Terronium-12
Okay. I've gotten all of that, thanks. What happened during the interviews?
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Well, pretty much Horner was trying to smooth over the whole weekend and once again got caught between two different scripts. He was claiming driver equality yet also admitting the wings were improvements and saying they made the decision based on the championship standings.
Vettel said something along the lines of "well I learnt the true face of certain people and I won't make that mistake again" when asked about Webber and relating to Turkey.
Webber simply referred to it as karma.

I really can't believe RB management don't realise the problem with this relationship, especially Adrian Newey who should know better when he was around McLaren in particular.
 
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Legard on Twitter

'How has Mark Webber celebrated his victory? With a packet of crisps! Told his mechanics unfixed his front wing and waved it at Vettel's team'
 
Touring Mars
In other words, Red Bull may very well give you wings, but they may also take them back off you and give them to someone else...
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Yes, to McLaren. :lol:


I really think all this favourism will cost them the championship... and that will make them look really bad.
 
To be honest, I really hate favourism and indeed this will cost them the championship and possibly the relationship between drivers and team...

I don't know why they have to do this because they are equal in pace, sometimes Webber is faster and vice versa. I am starting to know something will be going very wrong right after Turkey and it is happening. It's like what happened to McLaren, and Red Bull is like following McLaren's step of favourism like in 2007 which was pretty obvious between Alonso and Hamilton. Red Bull is terrible in doing their PR tasks. Everything in the team is like, tumbling all over the place. They're just taking stupid risk with this which will hurt the team...

I can tell you Webber was furious. If I was Webber and the same thing happen how do I feel? Mad? Of course you guys will be mad too...

It won't be a surprise if Webber move to another team next season. It is going to sounds like a downgrade from Red Bull.
 
InvincibleM5
I am starting to know something will be going very wrong right after Turkey and it is happening. It's like what happened to McLaren, and Red Bull is like following McLaren's step of favourism like in 2007 which was pretty obvious between Alonso and Hamilton.
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I think they are very different situations. This is a clear part/advantage given/taken away from one driver to another.

I think McLaren 2007 was very much overblown with Alonso just not very happy that Hamilton was matching and beating him. I think he very unsettled by that and called foul, when really I think he was just better.
 
Only_in_f1
I think they are very different situations. This is a clear part/advantage given/taken away from one driver to another.

I think McLaren 2007 was very much overblown with Alonso just not very happy that Hamilton was matching and beating him. I think he very unsettled by that and called foul, when really I think he was just better.
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Ah yes, Alonso has never had a team mate that is as fast or faster than him because Fischella wasn't really challenging him when they were in Renault but as you said, he was never happy with it.

That seems just not the problem to him, McLaren on the other hand favours Lewis more because of the close connection between Ron Dennis and Lewis. Some even say it's a problem of McLaren favouring him because he's British. One of the incident that I think pretty much explains it was Hungary 2007 on the last minute of Q3. Lewis was on the box for quite some time allowing traffic to go past by but at the same time, Alonso had to wait at the back of him and wasted his last run for Q3. Very unfortunate but that's the situation I see...

Conclusion, well owkey it might not sound like Red Bull is follwing exactly what McLaren did but they were/are practicing favourism...
 
EDIT: The fact that Alonso was getting wins throughout the 2007 season means that McLaren wasn't actually handicapping him (not like they did Hekki... though to be fair... Hekki was never in contention). The same way Mark's results show that he's not being given the short end of the stick in terms of team support... well.. until Turkey.

Only_in_f1
I think they are very different situations. This is a clear part/advantage given/taken away from one driver to another.

I think McLaren 2007 was very much overblown with Alonso just not very happy that Hamilton was matching and beating him. I think he very unsettled by that and called foul, when really I think he was just better.
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Quite. McLaren openly said that they wanted to treat the drivers as equals... whereas Alonso, as a two-time world champion, knew full well, just like Michael Schumacher before him, that having the full support of the team behind the number one driver produced championships.

He didn't get it. And to make matters worse, he couldn't borrow set-up information from Hamilton because their driving styles differed so greatly... Alonso with his aggressive turn-in and Hamilton with his more organic style... working from Hamilton's notes would get him nothing.

While it may have been embarrasing for Alonso to end even on points with a rookie... I wouldn't quite say that Hamilton beat him... while Hamilton was clearly the quicker of the two in terms of raw pace... Alonso was better at converting positions to points, and could match Lewis in terms of speed... but Hamilton definitely forced Alonso to reach deep to compete with him.

Some drivers would get a thrill from that kind of challenge. Alonso didn't. Their partnership could have been legendary, but Fernando just doesn't work that way.

It's similar to the Webber-Vettel situation only in that while Vettel is also clearly the faster driver in terms of raw pace (usually), Mark Webber has more experience, more consistency and better racecraft (usually). The difference is: Webber isn't Alonso. He's a better team player. It could work out if they did the McLaren-style "equal status" thing... but that favoritism, both actual and perceived... has just ruined their chemistry.
 
About Alonso, I still like the guy because he's a fantastic driver and all...but he whines too damn much for me. Lately, every time the communications are up, and it's his name, I literally feel like popping a bag of popcorn. Domenicali doesn't seem to be any better in my opinion, the both of them just...go together.

Back on topic, I think it's more then clear what Mark has on his mind now. Win the championship, laugh in their faces (probably cussing them out as well), and then retire to another team. This is all assuming none of this is resolved before things really get out of hand.
 
InvincibleM5
Ah yes, Alonso has never had a team mate that is as fast or faster than him because Fischella wasn't really challenging him when they were in Renault but as you said, he was never happy with it.

That seems just not the problem to him, McLaren on the other hand favours Lewis more because of the close connection between Ron Dennis and Lewis. Some even say it's a problem of McLaren favouring him because he's British. One of the incident that I think pretty much explains it was Hungary 2007 on the last minute of Q3. Lewis was on the box for quite some time allowing traffic to go past by but at the same time, Alonso had to wait at the back of him and wasted his last run for Q3. Very unfortunate but that's the situation I see...

Conclusion, well owkey it might not sound like Red Bull is follwing exactly what McLaren did but they were/are practicing favourism...
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I think you have them the wrong way around? It was Alonso that held Hamilton up and he missed his lap by 3.5 seconds. Alonso was then stripped of Pole.

Let me just cast your mind back to Monaco 2007, they pitted Hamilton 2 laps early and Alonso got by. Hamilton said in the interview after he knew he was fuel 5 laps longer than Alonso and was surprised they bought him in. USA 2007, Alonso asking over the radio to make Hamilton let him by was very petulant and shows where his mind was.

If you do want a situation where by Mclaren were CLEARLY favouring a driver then Hakkinen/Coulthard would be the best comparison.

I do think that situation was more Alonso crying wolf than anything else.

The Red Bull situation is very much different. The part was on Webber's car. Vettels broke. They then took the part OFF Webber's car to give to Vettel. It's like a parent favouring a child. Horner bough his two children an Ice Cream, one of which dropped his on the floor. He then took the Ice Cream of the other child and gave it to the clumsy one.



niky
It's similar to the Webber-Vettel situation only in that while Vettel is also clearly the faster driver in terms of raw pace (usually), Mark Webber has more experience, more consistency and better racecraft (usually). The difference is: Webber isn't Alonso. He's a better team player. It could work out if they did the McLaren-style "equal status" thing... but that favoritism, both actual and perceived... has just ruined their chemistry.
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Thing is, I don't think Vettel is 'clearly faster'. There is a very fine margin between the two in this car, and I don't see it as Vettel being a clear number 1 or faster driver. Over one lap, like Lewis, Vettel is supreme.

Lets nor forget Webber had pole in Spain, Monaco, Turkey and out Q'd Vettel in Canada. Only the past 2 races has Vettel beat him and the latest time with a 'superior' car.

I don't see Vettel as the fastest driver in that team, at least not what we have seen thus far this season.
 
Only_in_f1
Horner bough his two children an Ice Cream, one of which dropped his on the floor. He then took the Ice Cream of the other child and gave it to the clumsy one.
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No, the ice cream wasn't placed correctly into his hand
 
I wasn't calling Vettel clumsy, I just had to use a word to distinguish between these fictional kids and not call them 'that child' and 'the other child'
 
InvincibleM5
Ah yes, Alonso has never had a team mate that is as fast or faster than him because Fischella wasn't really challenging him when they were in Renault but as you said, he was never happy with it.
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Not entirely true - before the infamous France 2004 incident, Jarno Trulli was pasting Alonso at Renault.

Pretty much Alonso felt, he as a double world champion, that he deserved number 1 status and didn't expect this new rookie to be anywhere near him. I'm guessing he assumed McLaren's "we will treat the drivers equally" was just talk and really didn't think they would. Hence then Alonso got a bit of a shock when Hamilton started really pushing him and the team refused to favour him.

Though, there are always two sides to the story and it has to be said that Ron Dennis was always going to support his driver, Hamilton.
Lewis has even later admitted that he could have done a better job of that relationship. So its not all Alonso's fault but he didn't help himself.
 
Well who would expect a rookie to drive so well? at least pace-wise

If I was Alonso at McLaren, I would've been shocked as well.
 
Indeed, and Hulkenburg was meant to emulate that but really, really hasn't.
 
Only_in_f1
I think you have them the wrong way around? It was Alonso that held Hamilton up and he missed his lap by 3.5 seconds. Alonso was then stripped of Pole.

Let me just cast your mind back to Monaco 2007, they pitted Hamilton 2 laps early and Alonso got by. Hamilton said in the interview after he knew he was fuel 5 laps longer than Alonso and was surprised they bought him in. USA 2007, Alonso asking over the radio to make Hamilton let him by was very petulant and shows where his mind was.

If you do want a situation where by Mclaren were CLEARLY favouring a driver then Hakkinen/Coulthard would be the best comparison.

I do think that situation was more Alonso crying wolf than anything else.

The Red Bull situation is very much different. The part was on Webber's car. Vettels broke. They then took the part OFF Webber's car to give to Vettel. It's like a parent favouring a child. Horner bough his two children an Ice Cream, one of which dropped his on the floor. He then took the Ice Cream of the other child and gave it to the clumsy one.
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Ardius
Not entirely true - before the infamous France 2004 incident, Jarno Trulli was pasting Alonso at Renault.

Pretty much Alonso felt, he as a double world champion, that he deserved number 1 status and didn't expect this new rookie to be anywhere near him. I'm guessing he assumed McLaren's "we will treat the drivers equally" was just talk and really didn't think they would. Hence then Alonso got a bit of a shock when Hamilton started really pushing him and the team refused to favour him.

Though, there are always two sides to the story and it has to be said that Ron Dennis was always going to support his driver, Hamilton.
Lewis has even later admitted that he could have done a better job of that relationship. So its not all Alonso's fault but he didn't help himself.
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Owh my I got it all wrong :dunce:

After I made some more research and you are right Only_in_f1. Nicely explained and I think I shouldn't made such statement because I was soo wrong.

Also thanks to Ardius again for correcting me. I started watch F1 in 2005 full season. Forgot that Alonso had Trulli as his team mate who won his first GP in Monaco 2004. I have to agree with you he just didn't help himself out.

Sometimes I think that no matter whoever Alonso's team mate is going to be, they might not be a good chemistry between them after him being a 2 times champion.
 
I think it's a matter of opinion. Horner's explaination of why he chose to give the wing to Vettel is logical. However, would I do the same if I was in his place? No. Not in a team like RBR where there is no obvious #1 driver. If it was a Schumi/Barrichello Ferrari team, or Alonso/Massa Ferrari team, or Sutil/Liuzzi Force India team then yes, I would give the wing to my #1 driver because it would be clearly established in the team and even between the drivers as to who the senior partner is (plus the #1 driver would probably have significantly more points in the championship than the #2 driver).

At RBR this season, both drivers have outperformed each other at certain times. Vettel's front wing failure was unfortunate, but at the end of the day imo, it should have been, "Bad luck Seb". Horner's decision has widened the cracks in the team that started to show in Turkey, and perhaps, cost them the championship.
 
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Wasn't Horners explanation he gave it to Vettel as he was faster in P1?
 
And he was using the 12 point championship difference as an excuse too.
The worst bit is that apparently they didn't even discuss it with Webber before hand, Mark only found out when his engineers told him! Apparently only Horner and Newey had a discussion about it.
 
Who was it that Truli almost got into a fight with this season?

What's the point of me saying that? I can easily see Mark getting fed up with Red Bull and Vettel's seemingly transparent attitude and just trying to feed him half of his fist. If Vettel really is the pompous, arrogant schmuck the media is making him sound like (and I know how the media can blow 🤬 out of proportion) then I have to be honest...he's just throwing around weight he doesn't even really have, nor deserves at this point.

I can't wait until next week's race to see how things are turning out, and I especially can't wait until regular coverage resumes on Speed after this upcoming race, so I won't be so out of the damn loop. :grumpy:
 
Terronium-12
and I especially can't wait until regular coverage resumes on Speed after this upcoming race, so I won't be so out of the damn loop. :grumpy:
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Exactly! I hate when the races are on Fox! There almost isn't a point to watch them, when you can find out the results several hours earlier!

On topic. For me, being a Red Bull Racing fan, this tension isn't good. But, I don't think it's as bad as the media is portraying it to be. Appearently, Mark and Sebastian were singing together at a post race party. So it seems like things lightened up a little bit.

I can see how the decision was reached regarding the front wing. Sebastian was third in the points, and had the opportunity to pass up the two McLarens in the standings. So it only seems logical to support Vettel in this situation. I'm sure if the roles where reversed, they would support Webber.
 
astrosdude91
I can see how the decision was reached regarding the front wing. Sebastian was third in the points, and had the opportunity to pass up the two McLarens in the standings. So it only seems logical to support Vettel in this situation. I'm sure if the roles where reversed, they would support Webber.
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That isn't the problem though, the problem is they said that after switching the front wing. Like it was an excuse, not a reason.
The difference is also rediculous - 12 points is nothing, its effectively 6 points in old money. And for a wing reportedly worth 1 tenth?

Favouritism at this stage makes no sense at all, there is nothing between Webber and Vettel other than what the team decides to put on the cars :p.
 
Ardius
That isn't the problem though, the problem is they said that after switching the front wing. Like it was an excuse, not a reason.
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They didn't exactly have much choice. Vettel's front wing went at the end of FP3, and the cars were under parc ferme conditions with the beginning of Q1. They had just a matter of hours to make the decision. I seriously doubt this was something the team settled on before Vettel limped back to the pits; with the two drivers being fairly close together all weekend, Horner and the team obviously had little time to weigh up both sides of the argument. And everyone pounced on it as a case of "Red Bull are favouring Vettel!" before they had a chance to explain themselves. It's the media and the fans that are to blame here.
 
Only_in_f1
Wasn't Horners explanation he gave it to Vettel as he was faster in P1?
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My understanding was that the main reason given was, "because Vettel was leading Webber in the championship. If the same situation happened in the next race, Mark would get the wing now."

IMO, this is a logical explaination, but logical isn't always right to everyone. It seems logical to me, but I wouldn't do it in this case.

The only thing that was a genuine mistake in this whole thing was that Webber wasn't told that they were going to give the wing to Vettel until it was actually happening. They should have told him as soon as the decision was made, and the reason why they made that decision.
 
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And everyone pounced on it as a case of "Red Bull are favouring Vettel!" before they had a chance to explain themselves.
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Hard to believe otherwise after Turkey

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It's the media and the fans that are to blame here.
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That's why Webber referred to himself as the #2 driver.
 
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They didn't exactly have much choice. Vettel's front wing went at the end of FP3, and the cars were under parc ferme conditions with the beginning of Q1. They had just a matter of hours to make the decision. I seriously doubt this was something the team settled on before Vettel limped back to the pits; with the two drivers being fairly close together all weekend, Horner and the team obviously had little time to weigh up both sides of the argument. And everyone pounced on it as a case of "Red Bull are favouring Vettel!" before they had a chance to explain themselves. It's the media and the fans that are to blame here.
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Didn't have a choice? How about not even swapping the wings? The difference in the championship points and the front wing advantage was so negligible its rediculous why they even felt the need. It just shows they want Vettel up there so bad if they are willing to make such ludicrous decisions over such minor differences.
2 hours is plenty of time to decide "what should we replace Vettel's front wing with?". The obvious answer is with his old one, but they didn't choose that did they? This is not a grand philosophical question that takes hours of deliberating and as they admitted themselves, they didn't even discuss it with the drivers! It was Horner and Newey on their own allegedly. They didn't even dig very far with their decision, pretty much just "well Vettel has 12 more points" (according to them).

:lol: The blame is on the media and the fans? No, the blame is actually on Webber for as Coulthard put it "airing his dirty laundry in public". If Webber had never stated "dig deeper" and "not bad for a number 2" you might have a point.

How anyone can jump to the defence of Red Bull on their decision is beyond me, even a self-proclaimed Devil's Advocate such as yourself. Just like them 100% blaming Webber, there is very little thought being put behind their decisions and their public relations regarding them.
 
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