The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Will the current Articles of Impeachment ever be sent from the House to the Senate?

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I should add one more thing to Trump lying but one of the other problems is he's often built his lies out grains of truth or issues that he ultimately has no intention of acting on. The 'fake news' claim was pretty accurate when you look at the track record of the mainstream media backing the establishment (i.e. the firing of journalists who spoke out against the Iraq war or the lack of coverage of Bernie, also applies to Fox News), just he brandished it solely to get more people behind him and create discord as opposed to bringing attention to how much the media was backed by the deep state/MIC. Similarly remember he did say during his election campaign he'd end the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, something that a lot of people support, which hasn't happened but Obama is also guilty of that.
 
Ooooohhhkaaaayyyy. I guess we have to discuss the last 40 years of the US in order to justify impeaching and removing a president that has clearly committed (and admitted to committing) an impeachable offense. At the outset, I want to mention that your argument appears to be "bad stuff happened, so it's hypocritical to stop bad stuff now". That's a terrible argument. But let's investigate it!

longshot1314
Yes true while he was impeached he also wasn't removed from office.
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Should have been, in my opinion. And the same will likely be true of Trump. Impeached for a clearly impeachable offense, and not removed from office.

longshot1314
And yes while a military action was within the president's power (interesting through a bill signed by Clinton himself) it still is worth discussing that as a president he commited a military action in the midst of impeachment charges, something which so far Trump has not done.
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...but could have done right? Given that he's commander in chief and is actually responsible for military strikes. So, I'm not sure why you're bringing this up.

longshot1314
However it also stands that Clinton being impeached for his offenses would also mean that Trump should likely be guilty as well.
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It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that impeachment will happen. If the democrats pull up the reigns and go for censure, put a fork in them because they've given up.

longshot1314
I recall someone mentioning how Trump's lying actually strengthened his support base. I don't believe it's so much that as the fact that with Trump his lies are transparent and obvious, which wasn't the case with previous administrations.
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You mean they weren't as clearly lying. Yes, I agree, they weren't as clearly lying. That is kindof an important point don't you think?

longshot1314
With Obama, both Bush's, Clinton, and Reagan the lies didn't come out until well after the fact, and often it pertained to actions that were far more detrimental, such as Reagan and overseeing the CIA shipping cocaine into the U.S. from Central and South American Terrorists while simultaneously starting the war on drugs and incarcerating minorities on minor drug possession,
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As best I can tell, your Reagan allegations are a conspiracy theory that has been debunked twice. Want to share your sources?

longshot1314
Bush in furthering the war on drugs,
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How is this a lie? I mean, it's bad. I don't like it, but a lie?

longshot1314
Clinton on likewise doing similar and also sanctioning and launching military actions against Iraq on top of his sexual harrasment cases,
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Where's the lie? Obviously Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, but we discussed that already.

longshot1314
W Bush with using false pretense to start the second Iraq war while also overseeing the institution of a torture program,
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Waterboarding? That wasn't exactly covered-up, that was known-about, and argued about at the time. As far as false pretenses go, you're going to have to cite evidence to suggest that Bush understood whatever your false pretenses are while he was putting them forward. Go find it, I'll wait.

Gulf War II was directly legitimized by violation of the cease fire terms of Gulf War I. Any other pretenses you think were false are going to have to be demonstrated to be known to be false at the time if you want to claim this was a lie.

longshot1314
and Obama with the CIA 'kill list' and drone strikes, as well as the regime change war in Libya.
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Can you elaborate on the lying element here?

longshot1314
Basically the point I'm trying to make is that I find it a bit redundant to be focusing on impeaching Trump when there's been far worse things done in the past without an eye being batted at them
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Where's the impeachable offense. I don't think any of those things had any lack of eye-batting, but I'd like to understand how you think those presidents could have been impeached for the things you're laying out. You might think that drone strikes are worse. I'm not going to argue that point. But it's not impeachable. There was no reason or ability to remove Obama from office for carrying out his duties according to the actual authority of his office.

longshot1314
frankly trying to take a binary position on politics in the U.S. is a fallacy when the mainstream aspect of both parties very clearly have their own agendas that run contrary to what's in the best interests of the American people.
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I'm not the one trying to take a "binary" position on the last 40 years of US politics. I'm taking a binary position specifically on whether Trump has committed and impeachable offense. I don't have to weigh in on the Reagan administration to do so.
 
Chrunch Houston
Three years of hype and lies.

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Ok, watched the video.

The only thing that video demonstrates to me is that it has been known, for a very long time, that Trump's presidency is corrupt. Since before he took office. And for all that time, people have thought to themselves "you can't ignore this one". And yet Trump's loyal base has proven them wrong. They're willing to ignore anything he does.
 
Danoff
Ok, watched the video.

The only thing that video demonstrates to me is that it has been known, for a very long time, that Trump's presidency is corrupt. Since before he took office. And for all that time, people have thought to themselves "you can't ignore this one". And yet Trump's loyal base has proven them wrong. They're willing to ignore anything he does.
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What does it have to do with ignoring it cause Trump said so to his voters.
You even said you don't think there is much there in reference to Russia.
Us citizens don't have any say in any of the investigations or if he is found guilty or if he'll actually get impeached.

I know I know, but it should still be investigated. Ok how many investigations do we have to go through while they aren't doing what I consider more important stuff like next years budget? Which will probably grow for no reason. We agree he's guilty, why can't they just get it over with and do the rest of their job?
 
I'll admit I didn't lay out this argument as well as I should have. I brought up the issues surrounding the previous administrations to note that there were things done by all of them that would be deemed as 'impeachment' worthy when looked at it from a certain point of view. With regards to the false accusations with the Iraq war, it largely pertains to the reasoning that Iraq possessed WMD's and its parroting in the media. Note during this time that some reporters who spoke out against the Iraq War at the time were eventually fired. I brought up the military strike issue because launching strikes that kill civilians to put off your impending impeachment can be considered a war crime to a certain extent. Ron Paul did a good job of summing up the concern behind Clinton's military actions with respect to his impeachment at the time. With regards to Reagan, I'll admit I need to do more research but there would still be the Contras scandal that runs parallel to that issue.

Largely the way I look at this is that attempting to impeach Trump feels like a waste of energy and a high risk for the Democrats if they would wish to beat him, because largely if they don't succeed it gives him more fodder for going up against a Democratic nominee in 2020. I think it is also that I've grown exceedingly tired of the posturing of both sides, whether its the bigotry and outright ignorance of some Trump supporters or the self righteousness of some of the people on the left who seem to be willing to give people opposing Trump a blank check on morality or integrity so long as they're against Trump, as well as labeling anyone who opposes the 'any blue will do' as a racist or misogynist. Also I think the impeachment of Trump, like the Russian election meddling accusation acts to remove any blame the Democratic party could levy towards itself in losing the 2016 election, particularly when the accusation of election fixing could also be put on the Democratic party for their actions during the 2016 primaries. It also allows for the Democrats and media to ignore the fact that a decent amount of people who voted during the 2008/2012 election cycles didn't vote this time around on account of the amount disillusion that existed after Obama didn't deliver on campaign promises, and likewise this disillusion with the political situation made it easy for someone such as Trump to exploit peoples positions. Plus adding in the attacks and 'Russian scares' that have been levied against third parties and those running against the ideologies of Clinton and the establishment Dems and acting to further deepen the divide in the U.S. There's also the fact that whistleblowers have been encouraged to come out against Trump by the establisment Dems when they were prosecuted under the Obama administration.

I will admit that much of the information I've been hearing has been through podcasts I follow such as Jimmy Dore and Dave Smith with Dore being an anti-establisment progressive and Smith being a Libertarian so there will of course be some slant to what I discuss and I'm open to new information to adjust my position.
 
Danoff
The only thing that video demonstrates to me is that it has been known, for a very long time, that Trump's presidency is corrupt.
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And should Congressional Republicans baulk at their duties and twiddle their thumbs even more, it sets a very dangerous precedent for acceptable corruption to which any future President, irrespective of political leaning, can use as a defence.
 
longshot1314
I'll admit I didn't lay out this argument as well as I should have. I brought up the issues surrounding the previous administrations to note that there were things done by all of them that would be deemed as 'impeachment' worthy when looked at it from a certain point of view. With regards to the false accusations with the Iraq war, it largely pertains to the reasoning that Iraq possessed WMD's and its parroting in the media. Note during this time that some reporters who spoke out against the Iraq War at the time were eventually fired. I brought up the military strike issue because launching strikes that kill civilians to put off your impending impeachment can be considered a war crime to a certain extent. Ron Paul did a good job of summing up the concern behind Clinton's military actions with respect to his impeachment at the time. With regards to Reagan, I'll admit I need to do more research but there would still be the Contras scandal that runs parallel to that issue.

Largely the way I look at this is that attempting to impeach Trump feels like a waste of energy and a high risk for the Democrats if they would wish to beat him, because largely if they don't succeed it gives him more fodder for going up against a Democratic nominee in 2020. I think it is also that I've grown exceedingly tired of the posturing of both sides, whether its the bigotry and outright ignorance of some Trump supporters or the self righteousness of some of the people on the left who seem to be willing to give people opposing Trump a blank check on morality or integrity so long as they're against Trump, as well as labeling anyone who opposes the 'any blue will do' as a racist or misogynist. Also I think the impeachment of Trump, like the Russian election meddling accusation acts to remove any blame the Democratic party could levy towards itself in losing the 2016 election, particularly when the accusation of election fixing could also be put on the Democratic party for their actions during the 2016 primaries. It also allows for the Democrats and media to ignore the fact that a decent amount of people who voted during the 2008/2012 election cycles didn't vote this time around on account of the amount disillusion that existed after Obama didn't deliver on campaign promises, and likewise this disillusion with the political situation made it easy for someone such as Trump to exploit peoples positions. Plus adding in the attacks and 'Russian scares' that have been levied against third parties and those running against the ideologies of Clinton and the establishment Dems and acting to further deepen the divide in the U.S. There's also the fact that whistleblowers have been encouraged to come out against Trump by the establisment Dems when they were prosecuted under the Obama administration.

I will admit that much of the information I've been hearing has been through podcasts I follow such as Jimmy Dore and Dave Smith with Dore being an anti-establisment progressive and Smith being a Libertarian so there will of course be some slant to what I discuss and I'm open to new information to adjust my position.
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I disagree with this because it reduces impeachment to purely political strategy and cynicism. I'm watching this unfold from the perspective of the middle. In my opinion, it is not just their prerogative for congress to oversee the president, it is their responsibility. I also don't see much use in establishing presidential behavior on such a relativist scale - taken out of context, what Trump has done (allegedly, but with considerable, credible evidence) is against the spirit and the letter of the constitution - whether or not previous Presidents should or should not have been impeached is largely irrelevant.

If the highest official in the land is willing to use his official capacity to bribe/extort a foreign entity for personal gain, our foundational principles, a nation conceived & codified in law and reason, faces systemic risk. It's not that he should be impeached - he must be impeached. If he is not removed, that's something the Senators must live with. We cannot allow Donald Trump to become a king and we must remember how brief and rare our nation of liberty is in the context of human history. Despair and despotism are easy.
 
ryzno
What does it have to do with ignoring it cause Trump said so to his voters.
You even said you don't think there is much there in reference to Russia.
Us citizens don't have any say in any of the investigations or if he is found guilty or if he'll actually get impeached.

I know I know, but it should still be investigated. Ok how many investigations do we have to go through while they aren't doing what I consider more important stuff like next years budget? Which will probably grow for no reason. We agree he's guilty, why can't they just get it over with and do the rest of their job?
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Well obstruction over it was rampant. So the investigation bore fruit (and a lot of people got prosecuted). I'll note that the Ukraine scandal rings heavily of the same exact accusation as the Russia investigation. Yet this one has sufficient evidence (and Trump's own admission of guilt). I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating here:

Trump was accused of colluding with russia to influence the US election. Evidence supports obstruction, evidence doesn't really support collusion.
Trump was accused of bribing Ukraine to influence the US election. Evidence supports obstruction and bribery.

These are not unrelated. The only thing that hasn't been shown was evidence of collusion (although Trump's team was open to receiving dirt on his political opponents from Russia, and he has admitted to that). But that does not mean collusion didn't exist, it means that if (and this is an if, for me, I'm not convinced either way) he colluded with Russia, he got away with it. Read that one again, got away with it. As in, succeeded in not getting caught or penalized. And that's basically how that book appears to be finished.

But make no mistake, this is a pattern of behavior, and this latest event should be enough to end his presidency.

The media has been reporting all of this for years, since before Trump even took office. And yet, somehow, Republican numbers don't drop through the floor for defending him, and Trump's numbers are not sinking hard either. This is the only thing that shields him. His supporters' absolute refusal to acknowledge reality. The media (and I) have been underestimating that effect for years. And I guess I continue to do so.

longshot1314
Largely the way I look at this is that attempting to impeach Trump feels like a waste of energy and a high risk for the Democrats if they would wish to beat him,
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It's not about what happens in the election. It is their responsibility, their duty, their oaths of office, that they must uphold and hold the presidency accountable. If they don't, they'll have failed to live up to their obligations.

longshot1314
I think it is also that I've grown exceedingly tired of the posturing of both sides, whether its the bigotry and outright ignorance of some Trump supporters or the self righteousness of some of the people on the left who seem to be willing to give people opposing Trump a blank check on morality or integrity so long as they're against Trump, as well as labeling anyone who opposes the 'any blue will do' as a racist or misogynist.
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I do understand what you're talking about. Trump gets accused of being corrupt, racist, and misogynist a lot. Too much, if you ask me. But he is, demonstrably, all 3 of those things. Whether each situation warrants it or not is up for debate, but there is no question that each of those is accurate as a whole, based on his own actions. You don't have to embrace everything the left says to realize that some of it is true. It's not "binary".

longshot1314
Also I think the impeachment of Trump, like the Russian election meddling accusation acts to remove any blame the Democratic party could levy towards itself in losing the 2016 election, particularly when the accusation of election fixing could also be put on the Democratic party for their actions during the 2016 primaries.
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That was well-deserved egg on their face.

longshot1314
I will admit that much of the information I've been hearing has been through podcasts I follow such as Jimmy Dore and Dave Smith with Dore being an anti-establisment progressive and Smith being a Libertarian so there will of course be some slant to what I discuss and I'm open to new information to adjust my position.
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I'm a Libertarian, and have voted that way for more than a decade.
 
Danoff
The media has been reporting all of this for years, since before Trump even took office. And yet, somehow, Republican numbers don't drop through the floor for defending him, and Trump's numbers are not sinking hard either. This is the only thing that shields him. His supporters' absolute refusal to acknowledge reality. The media (and I) have been underestimating that effect for years. And I guess I continue to do so.
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I think, unfortunately, America has been primed for this kind of charlatan exploitation for a while now. The appearance of success holds too much power over popular perception. Donald Trump has never been "real", but he has always been powerful. I'd say our addiction to reality TV has completely destroyed any kind of universal critical assessment mechanism - we take wealth to be a self-evident marker of exceptionalism. I think because many Americans see that wealth as inspirational...Donald Trump is the reflection many Americans want to see of themselves, a mirage of a self-made man, blazing his own existence to Frank Sinatra's My Way, however delusional that actually is. To confront that is to confront themselves, probably the most difficult thing a person can do.

The question becomes, how do we get people to see that he is (and always has been) a fraud when they don't want to?
 
TenEightyOne
And now... the end is near...
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I must say I do find this kinda post funny. What happened to that nuclear war a number of people here swore would happen?
Y'all gotta understand why some of us roll our eyes and laugh.
We keep hearing he's destroying America, it's international reputation? Maybe. America itself? I'd argue the Dems are but I'm not gonna waste my time rattling off cities/states for examples.
Our overall employment, stock market and economy beg to differ. I hope PZ doesn't chime in with 'what about income inequality'? Same person who doesn't like 'whataboutisms'...

Now what will China and other countries do when they want the trillions we owe them? I can't say. But I'd say we need to be working on that cause our debt is LITERALLY bringing the end near.

Not exactly directed at you Ten. Just a little insight from the side 'people don't understand'.
 
ryzno
I must say I do find this kinda post funny. What happened to that nuclear war a number of people here swore would happen?
Y'all gotta understand why some of us roll our eyes and laugh.
We keep hearing he's destroying America, it's international reputation? Maybe. America itself? I'd argue the Dems are but I'm not gonna waste my time rattling off cities/states for examples.
Our overall employment, stock market and economy beg to differ. I hope PZ doesn't chime in with 'what about income inequality'? Same person who doesn't like 'whataboutisms'...

Now what will China and other countries do when they want the trillions we owe them? I can't say. But I'd say we need to be working on that cause our debt is LITERALLY bringing the end near.

Not exactly directed at you Ten. Just a little insight from the side 'people don't understand'.
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I think you missed the joke.



Also, I would question what cities/states you consider "destroyed by dems" and which ones are the greatest contributors to the stock market and economy. Just take a look at the GDP of California, for instance.

1280px-2017_GDP_comparison_by_country_or_US_state.png
 
Google says:
Forbes says they(CA) are 1.3 trillion in debt.
GA.gov says we have almost a 1/4 million in reserves.
Interpret that how you want.
Oh and Seattle is getting ready to waste I believe a million on giving homeless people one way tickets to leave. Hey! More debt and we'll put them on someone elses door step to deal with!
 
mustafur
Not only that, but the Top 10 Wealthest states in America are all Democrat held part from Alaska(which is obvious why)

While the 10 poorest states are all Republican apart from New Mexico.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income

@ryzno I would really question where your getting your information from, to me it sounds cherry picked to make the otherside look better then reality.
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No way you read my post above and typed that that quick.
 
ryzno
Google says:
Forbes says they(CA) are 1.3 trillion in debt.
GA.gov says we have almost a 1/4 million in reserves.
Interpret that how you want.
Oh and Seattle is getting ready to waste I believe a million on giving homeless people one way tickets to leave. Hey! More debt and we'll put them on someone elses door step to deal with!
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California has a $21.5Bn budget surplus for FY 2019. Our biggest liability is pension plans and other various entitlements...but we are far from running a deficit budget.

edit: This has gotten off topic. Apologies.
 
ryzno
Well Forbes disagrees...
Are they unreliable now too?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomas...top-four-reasons-california-is-unsustainable/

I'll gladly show you a screenshot of my 3 word question to Google and results.
Feel free to move it to the America thread if you want to continue.
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That's using numbers from 2015, four years ago, and based on even a quick look they have been running a surplus on income eack year since.

So at best they are now in the black, and at worst the figures you cited are significantly lower in terms of defecit.

Oh and the source you used hardly comes from the most unbiased of sources.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbeccaro/
 
Ok... My "budget" can run in the green. Doesn't mean I'm not in debt. And I highly doubt they paid back 1.3 trillion in 4 years.

Oh and a quick Google search says for California the 19/20 budget is 21.5 billion, while they only have 21 billion. From CA.gov October 17th 2019... So yeah, they haven't paid it back...
 
ryzno
Ok... My "budget" can run in the green. Doesn't mean I'm not in debt. And I highly doubt they paid back 1.3 trillion in 4 years.

Oh and a quick Google search says for California the 19/20 budget is 21.5 billion, while they only have 21 billion. From CA.gov October 17th 2019... So yeah, they haven't paid it back...
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What country doesn't have national debt? None of what has been discussed detracts from California having a significantly large economy, as do some other Democrat-held states.
 
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ryzno
Ok... My "budget" can run in the green. Doesn't mean I'm not in debt. And I highly doubt they paid back 1.3 trillion in 4 years.

Oh and a quick Google search says for California the 19/20 budget is 21.5 billion, while they only have 21 billion. From CA.gov October 17th 2019... So yeah, they haven't paid it back...
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I think we've officially lost sight of the argument at some point here.
 
ryzno
Ok... My "budget" can run in the green. Doesn't mean I'm not in debt. And I highly doubt they paid back 1.3 trillion in 4 years.

Oh and a quick Google search says for California the 19/20 budget is 21.5 billion, while they only have 21 billion. From CA.gov October 17th 2019... So yeah, they haven't paid it back...
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One of the constants on the Fox News website is articles pointing out how "progressive" California is in desperate straits, with people fleeing in the tens of thousands due to gang bangers, M13, homeless people ... & some of the highest real estate prices in the country. There doesn't seem to be any appreciation of the simple, "Economics 101" reality that high real estate prices are a clear indication that people WANT to live there.

Rynzo: the US national debt is close to 23 trillion, so even if California's debt is still 1.3 trillion, it would be proportionately less than the national debt. FWIW: the 10 poorest states in the US are all Red states in the South East, with the exception of New Mexico. Georgia, is the 9th poorest state, but is gradually moving up ... at the same time that it is gradually becoming a "purple state".
 
stonesfan129
It must be a sad life being mad about Trump all the time...
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Quality rebuttal, after all its not the alleged leader of the free world behind discussed is it!

Being angry that the POTUS is a criminal abusing the highest office in the US for his own personal gain is more that reasonable, and if this is the sole defence you have, then I think you know exactly how guilty he is.

The next step is acceptance, give it a go.
 

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