The Ultimate 4x4 Excursion

[Danny]

Landcruiser is a great offroaded, but I'd say pretty much any Land Rover including to a lesser extent, the Freelander.

And also the Fiat Panda 4X4

 

[1X83Z]

Are you sure you're talking about the LM002 ?.. The LM002 turns 20 next year and I don't think (IIRC) that you states folk got it until 89 (late 88)....

The LM002 debuted in 1985 (making the oldest models 22 years old) and lasted until 1993, though contrary to what everyone else says, I'm fairly sure it was never officially sold in the United States. The vast majority of LM002s are in the Middle East after the US government refused the vehicle.

since when has off road meant "going somewhere high"

You've missed my point.

Thats true, but the poll talks about the Defender (available from € 24 600 in Belgium). Hmmm, just checked the USA Land Rover site and it looks like they don't even sell them in the US.

The Defender was sold in the United States from 1993 to 1995 and in 1997. In 1993 it was only available with the 110-inch wheelbase, but in 1994 (and on) that changed and the only available model was the Defender 90. Statistic of the day: the Land Rover Defender is the only (consumer market) car I'm aware of that was produced in the last two decades where the current retail price is higher than the original MSRP; the rarity and capability of the vehicles combined with the Land Rover name has made them something of an exotic in the US and Blue Book rates a 1997 example worth $31000, versus a 1997 asking price of $32600. I personally feel the largest automobile industry mistake occuring right now is Land Rover not marketing the Defender in the US, especially due to the huge success Mercedes has had with the G-class ever since they began selling it here in 2002.

 

[Duke]

I agree. I have no use for an offroader, but I'd love to have a long-wheelbase Defender.

 

[Small_Fryz]

the poll says defender not discovery

Not that it makes much difference, the Defender, Discovery and Range Rover are all top notch 👍

Anybody seen the Camel Trophy?

Defender, Range Rover and Discoverys
All very close to showroom spec.

purely for 4x4, these 3 are extremely good 👍

 

[JNasty4G63]

3 locking diffs
short wheel base
wheels at all corners
long suspension travel.....
i dont think the wrangler has three locking diffs, but i'll include it.

Yep, the Wrangler has all that covered. If you get a Rubicon, which I own, it has front and rear standard air-lockers. Both front and rear diffs are lockable 4.11 Dana 44s. And it comes with a 4:1 low range. And, standard Goodyear MT/R 31's. So lets see, thats....

Front and rear air-lockers stock- CHECK
4:1 low range stock - CHECK
4.11 Dana 44s, front and rear stock - CHECK
31" muds stock - CHECK
Short wheelbase - CHECK
Front and rear live axles - CHECK
Wheels - CHECK

Like I said, they aren't the absolute greatest thing ever. But, stock out the door from the showroom to the trail, the Rubicon is a tough act to beat for a new car. The Defender is a spectacular machine, for sure. Its like Wrangler turned up to 11. But, they cost a bit much for me. Either is nice though.

Hilg

 

[neanderthal]

i know the rubicon has a locking front diff, i just wasnt sure the bottom feeder 4X4 models had one too. the g-wagens ALL had three locking diffs.

 

[JNasty4G63]

i know the rubicon has a locking front diff, i just wasnt sure the bottom feeder 4X4 models had one too.

No, the Rubicon has 3 locking diffs, not just the front. When you engage the 4:1 low range, it locks the center diff. Then, hit the dash air-locker switch once to lock the rear diff. Hit it again to lock the front. At that point you would have all 3 locked.

And, I don't recall ever saying the other Wranglers were just as good. The Rubicon is the only Jeep that I would say is really "Trail Worthy" right out the box. A standard Wrangler can be MADE into a nice machine. But, the Rubicon has lots of what you'd want right out the box.

.....the g-wagens ALL had three locking diffs.

I see what your saying, but I don't see how one model offering something that the others don't have as a bad thing. Thats like saying the Subaru Impreza isn't as nice as it should be because the turbo is only offered on the WRX and STi models. Some people don't need every option. Thats why they are OPTIONS afterall. People who want speed know to get the WRX. And, people who want a beefy off-roader know to get the Rubicon.

Hilg

 

[neanderthal]

you're missing the point.

by specifically mentioning the front diff lock i was talking about a feature most trail rigs have and most OEMS dont. center and rear are par for the course, so when i mention the rubicons front locker (by omission) im saying besides its rear and center lockers. i know it has all three. i doubt the lesser wranglers have all three.

also, where most people buy a four by four for fashion/ to keep up with the jones/ to see how much they can stretch thier budget/ whatever, if i was buying one i would be buying a hardcore 4X4, not this soft roader nonsense. id be buying a trail rig. hence my short wheel base, 3 lockers, wheels at all corners qualifications in my first post. id want something i could go right to moab with, no stopping to upgrade stuff and so on. g wagen, definitely, any model. D90, again, any model sold here, but only the rubicon would suffice from jeep. standard wranglers wouldnt cut it.

unlike most, i dont buy my cars to pose. i buy for utility.

also,

 

[Firebird]

g wagen, definitely, any model.

unlike most, i dont buy my cars to pose. i buy for utility.

Did you type this with a straight face? If so I'm impressed by your composure.

 

[JNasty4G63]

you're missing the point.

You seem to be missing mine as well. Again, I don't see how the Rubicon having these things, and standard Wranglers not, is a bad thing. Its offered isn't it???? What more do you want??? Because its not offered on the other models, its now a 3rd rate vehicle??? You said it yourself, most people buy these things for posing and looking tough. Not to actually get tough off road.

If you do the tough off-roading, you know to get the Rubicon, and get its equipment. If you're just some average Joe, who wants 4WD, and a decent vehicle, you get the X or Sahara.

So, what good does MB offering all that hardware do them if all thats buying them is soccer moms and big wig execs who have more money than they need. The G-Wagen that we get here in the states is a super-luxo machine thats just here for come competition to the H2 for most ostentatios use of $$$$. Yes, in their core, they are very capable machines, and have been for years. But, as available here in the states, your more likely to see 50 G55s with some soccer moms and the kids before you see one actually getting dirty.

unlike most, i dont buy my cars to pose. i buy for utility.

Just so you know, the Wrangler Rubicon, at a savings of $53k over the G500, has better specs in just about every worthy off-roading stat.

Jeep in GREEN, G500 in BLUE

Ground Clearance : 10.3" - 8.3"
Approach Angle : 44.9* - 36*
Departure Angle : 33.9* - 27*
Low Range : 4:1 - 2.16:1
Wheelbase : 93.4" - 112.2"
Total Length : 156.1" - 185.6"
Turning Circle : 34.9' - 43.5'
Stock Tires : Goodyear MT/R Muds 31" - Yoko Geolander Highway ATs 30"

Not sure about your "G-Wagen, any model" theory earlier, but so far the Rubicon has it beat on just about every off-road worthy spec I've looked at. Shorter length, less tall, more clearance, more in and out angle, better gearing, more agile steering angles, better tires......see where this is going??? This is with the standard Rubicon. But even if you take the new long-wheelbase "Unlimited" version, the specs still come in better.

I understand that the G-Wagen is a very capable machine, and was a monster back in its day. But, now a days, for $50k less, you can get a machine that does everything it will, if not better. Again, I'm not trying to say the Rubicon is the greatest off-roader ever. But, you have to see where I'm going with this. Out the box, all the specs and numbers point to the Rubicon as the better machine over the G500.

Hilg

 

[svtsnake]

the Jeep Rubicon is probably the cheapest, off road worthy vehicle right from the dealership.
but i would like a range rover sport.

 

[svtsnake]

http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=8093FEC5-D1CC-427A-B151-8ED0A91DF965&p=0

thats the jeep liberty

 

[neanderthal]

jnasty

again, you are missing the point. if i was buying a 4X4 i WOULD buy the rubicon, but not the lesser ones. im not saying i wouldnt buy a jeep period, just not the regular ones.

and why woould i even think about buying the stupid fancy G500 pieces of crap that mercedes USA has foisted on the public. thats the most problem prone g series theyve made; the US version. the ones prior to 2002 were fine, the ones imported by europa motors in new mexico. back when schwarzenneger and will smith were essentially the only celebrities who owned one here. (clapton had one in london)

if i wanted a hardcore off road machine i would get the short wheel base g series with a diesel engine, preferably an ex military one. not the regular long wheel base one. unfortunately militaries tend to prefer the long one.
do a search for one called g-zilla. guy used a vette engine and (i think) dana axles or something like that.

personally i know id still want some civility in the vehicle. g beats any jeep on that front.
also seeing as these cars were made from 1979 you can get one for mid teens to low twenties. the earlier 460 and military 461 chassis are preferable to the later luxurified problem prone 463 series.

 

[neanderthal]

Did you type this with a straight face? If so I'm impressed by your composure.

so you're saying you know nothing about the military spec versions of the g that your own canadian military uses? that are available for sale to farmers and munincipalities. some of us dont only know gwagons only from rap videos and celebrity sightings.

for most of the unwashed masses that pointed sarcasm probably would be spot on. however, i happen to know that the g was designed and first used as a military vehicle and became a civilian model. i happen to know that magna steyr puch is still making those military versions even if the civilian models have been discontinued. ive driven military g wagens when i was a mercedes mechanic in zimbabwe. and we serviced the unimogs too. and buses. and trucks. and the cars everybody knows. all with the three pointed star on the front.

not all mercedes are luxury cars. i know that. maybe you dont. it may be true here in the north american market, but guess what, theres a whole world out there where mercedes does business that isnt called north america.

 

[Flerbizky]

The LM002 debuted in 1985 (making the oldest models 22 years old) and lasted until 1993, though contrary to what everyone else says, I'm fairly sure it was never officially sold in the United States. The vast majority of LM002s are in the Middle East after the US government refused the vehicle.

?????

If it debuted in 1985, how the h*** can the oldest ones be 22 then ?.. By my count that'll make them 20 this year and not next year as I said earlier.. (You're not thinking about the Cheetah are you ?.. I belive that was showcased late 84 or early 85 but never produced in numbers..)

They were exported to the states. IIRC, the last 60 or so of the 320 something produced were made specifically for the states. Racing stripes and some big chrome bumpers...

 

[Firebird]

so you're saying you know nothing about the military spec versions of the g that your own canadian military uses?

I know the ones the Canadian Forces are using have been plagued with chassis failures.

that are available for sale to farmers and munincipalities. some of us dont only know gwagons on...

...world out there where mercedes does business that isnt called north america.

I don't really care if the G-wagen was designed as a military truck. So was the Hummer H1. They're still two of the greatest poseurmobiles ever made.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Defender 90, short wheel bast with roof rack, aluminum plating and snorkel.

The ultimate rural-poser car 👍

 

[JNasty4G63]

.....and why woould i even think about buying the stupid fancy G500 pieces of crap that mercedes USA has foisted on the public.

g wagen, definitely, any model.

Did I miss something there too??? You seem to love the G-Wagen one minute, and then bash it another. Which is it???

Hilg

 

[Firebird]

 

[Danny]

Many moons ago, Autocar magazine pitted the Wrangler against the Defender, and the defender being better offroad, and the Wrangler being better on it, it was pretty much even. But victory went to Land Rover, because the Defender "is not trying to be something it isn't".

 

[High-Test]

Jeeps are ment to be terrible off road according to jeremy clarkson. Add the range rover to that list. And if your gonna have a lambo add the x5 and cayenne and add the Japanese trucks.

Did you seriously type that with a straight face?

Jeeps were meant to got through places a horse wouldn't, run like hell and get a few GIs from A to B reliably.Why do you think the basic Wrangler recipe hasn't changed much in over 60 years?

Aparenty, it worked fantastically. Look at the Willys MB, and then look at a rubicon. basically, they're the same thing, just a little more high-tech here, bigger motor there..

Do some research before opening your pompous, biased mouth.

And, Mr. Clasrkson got an LR3 stuck not once, but twice. And, he had to have people dig it out for him. Did you see him assisting with the recovery? I think not.

But I'm not denying the capability of a Defender or a Landcruiser.

What's the Jeep pretending to be??

 

[stumpydino]

the land rover idea was based around a willys, infact the first one was pretty much made of all jeep parts. new land rovers however arent exactly built for even farm work. the better ones being the series' and the defender tho an old rangie is quite capable too, bobtail preferably

 

[neanderthal]

Did I miss something there too??? You seem to love the G-Wagen one minute, and then bash it another. Which is it???

Hilg

if you read carefully youll see i like the pre 2002 ones. some cars get better with age, others dont so much. the g went south after 02. not mechanically, or even significantly. just a lot of electrical gremlins, and other niggles that resulted from trying to federalise it for the NA market.


the same applies to many other cars too; when smog laws took hold and resulted in change, when OBDII took effect, and so on to cite two examples. its nothing new.

 

[neanderthal]

I don't really care if the G-wagen was designed as a military truck. So was the Hummer H1. They're still two of the greatest poseurmobiles ever made.

they're also amongst the foremost versatile military vehicles and off road vehicles[b/] ever sold. period.

i was under the impression that this thread was about off road vehicles not poseur mobiles.

 

[Danny]

Unimog!

 

[Joey D]

I don't really care if the G-wagen was designed as a military truck. So was the Hummer H1. They're still two of the greatest poseurmobiles ever made.

An H1 a poseurmobile? Wow you've never actually seen what an H1 can do off road, have you? Sure most people who buy them a posuers but the H1 is a great vehicle off road.

 

[Firebird]

An H1 a poseurmobile? Wow you've never actually seen what an H1 can do off road, have you? Sure most people who buy them a posuers but the H1 is a great vehicle off road.

Hello! Is anybody home? Think, McFly, think!

Most people who buy Hummer H1s are men with small penises and lots of money. Do they take them offroad? Rarely. Ergo, they're are poseurs. Ergo the Hummer H1 is a poseurmobile. (and they're great in certain offroad situations. On relatively flat, open terrain for example. Plains, deserts, steppes... great in that kind of environment. But they're awful in steep ascents and descents. They're awful at rockclimbing. And they're awful in narrow situations like streets and trails.)

The same segment of guys with fat wallets and microdicks buys the G-wagen too. Hence it's a poseurmobile. Nevermind the fact either of them could be taken offroad. Their owners don't.


They're not nearly as bad as say, a Hummer H2, though. It is not only bought by the same cleintele, but doesn't have the capabilities to back up the looks.

neanderthal would have saved himself trouble had he specified an age range and model of G-wagen he'd want (a late-'70s to mid-'80s 240GD, for example. They're relatively inexpensive compared to their newer G500 and G55 AMG counterparts, and far more capable. I wouldn't mind owning one myself. But they're stillfar too expensive for what they are, much like the Land Rover Defender. I wouldn't actually go out of my way to buy one.)

 

[Joey D]

So what, just because those kind of people buy them doesn't make the vehicle its self a poser. A Jeep Liberty is a poser, a Nissan Xterra is a poser. They are SUV's that think they can go off road. You should say people who buy Hummer's are posers.

The H1 can pretty much go over or through anything. They aren't bad on steep inclines and decents, trust me I've seen the test videos from Arizona where they not only put it up and down steep hills, but they crawled over rocks. They are great on trails, just look at the US Army's videos of the Humvee going through trails. They can also go through the mud pretty decently too.

You know nothing if you think the H2 can't go off road, its not as capiable of the H1 but it still is pretty damn good, the H3 is the one that sucks.

And I can tell you've owned a Jeep, you have the off road God complex.

 

[Joey D]

Looks steep and rockey to me

Wow thats not a steep incline now

Mud anyone?

Because an H2 can't leave the pavement now

This isn't bad now is it? And what it's a TRAIL!

Because Hummers can't go down rockey trails

*And this is coming from a guy who HATES off roading with a passion. I hate lifted trucks and what not, so no I have no allegences to any type of off road vehicle.

 

[a6m5]

So what, just because those kind of people buy them doesn't make the vehicle its self a poser. A Jeep Liberty is a poser, a Nissan Xterra is a poser. They are SUV's that think they can go off road. You should say people who buy Hummer's are posers.

Are you sure? I thought Nissan trucks are supposed to be pretty good off-road, at least from magazines I've read in the past. Also, they are very popular in the market, where they lack roads.