The Updated Physics Thread

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by VBR, Jan 17, 2019.

  1. mirial

    mirial

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    But hopefully the "best drivers" in the world are telling PD directly this weekend, and if they aren't, then maybe they are too shy, or we can assume many quite like it that way it is as it favours their default driving style and therefore makes driving more equal. I couldn't help noticing Fraga seemed to have a big advantage with X2019 which was probably the most neutral car of the whole weekend, so this is an example of what can happen when we move more to neutrality.

    I watched quite a few incidents, and again the understeer in most situations could be argued as the culprit because it basically constrains everyone to the same driving line with the same driving style, with the same cornering speed which makes it very boring, and also limits overtaking to some degree.

    For most competent drivers, the default balance should be neutrality a bit below the limit to give some warning it is about to lose grip in the offending corners. Ideally a car setup neutral and as close to the limit as possible will be more efficient and faster. But even the best drivers who may not like edgy cars, are more than fit to drive cars setup with understeer whereby the radius of the front wheels takes a tighter one than the rear.

    At the moment, we have cars that are setup so that the front wheels take a larger radius than the rear mid-corner to exit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
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  2. Knukel

    Knukel

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    Adding RNG to a game isn't fun, i agree, although i'm not sure if any current sim have it or is ever planning to, or if it's ever suggested by community.
    Mechanical failures should always be caused by your own driving errors and never RNG... Unless, in near future, your pit crew consist real player(s) playing the game as a mechanic in 1st person view.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
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  3. iFerrari

    iFerrari

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    I’m guessing that’s why games like iRacing and rFactor 2 still have player bases after 10 years, yep nobody wants that.
     
  4. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    Nope. RNG would be good IF done correctly. Lets say a none visible damage meter. Every time you ride a curb, break too late, change gear incorrectly or do anything else that puts stress on the car takes something away from the meter. Once it is filled (and only in races of an hour or longer) you then get a random number dropped every lap. Fail it and you get a failure on the car. It should always be heavily in favour of the driver in a modern car but increasing in favour of failure as you go to older and older cars but still in favour of the driver to give accurate retirement rates for any given category.
     
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  5. Knukel

    Knukel

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    Well why not, it would still highly depend on your own driving... But i wonder, if that's already implemented in rally games with 'part condition meters', i dunno.

    ...Just to clarify: with RNG being bad, i meant if it's causing random happenings during the race, something unavoidable - Like what is mentioned above: "unexplained breakdowns" & "defective parts or tires" before the race start - simulating ridiculous 'AI mistakes', and causing rigged races... Unless, those defective/worn parts carry over from last race(s), or stages like in Rally games.
    But yes, i agree that RNG could be done correctly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
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  6. Beezer215

    Beezer215

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    I want all those things. Every single one of them. That's why I prefer PC2. Who are you speaking for anyways?
     
  7. IncredibleMind

    IncredibleMind

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    I’ve repeatedly said that they should have options for varying types of drivers in the same way you can change the way the camera behaves in chase view. Perhaps they can have a simulation and a separate arcade mode.

    As of now, the driving feels relatively static and NO a sim rig isn’t what would improve it for myself. I’m speaking on the way the cars respond to varying speeds and this does indeed extend to the physics.

    Aside from that, I’ve given videos with visual evidence to support my arguments. Whether you feel those are viable or even relevant stances is your choice and yours alone.

    I remember being here around the GT5 time and people would get offended when complaints were made against the engine sounds. The complaints were valid, even if it made people uncomfortable and as a result the sounds have improved.

    I remember people complaining about the cockpit shaking in GT5....so what is the answer? OPTIONS, just as so many other games have. In Drive Club you could adjust the percentage... that’s really what I’m suggesting.

    That said, if you make another irrelevant message to me as you did with your first reference about the 1.39 update where you’re GROSSLY misinterpreting where I’m coming from I will simply ignore it.
     
  8. Haitauer

    Haitauer

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    These "best drivers" are just some 50 best gamers from millions, so their (propably biased) opinion has relatively little weight. Kaz himself has driven in Nurb 24h GT3 for one - he must have some idea of physics. :cheers::lol:

    Also what might affect this is x2019 being similar to open wheelers and Fraga being a F3 driver. :odd::lol:
     
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  9. IncredibleMind

    IncredibleMind

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    I was thinking (hoping) there is a chance that Kaz is aware of any issues with physics and that the updates are simply rollouts until they reach a specific target.

    I know for updates you have to spend several months prior doing testing before it is released to the public even while they already have improved models in the studio.

    That said, there’s a chance they come to these forums and laugh at anything we say as they may already have improved models for everything we speak of in the works. There’s a part of me that does believe this to be the case.

    Nevertheless, in the meanwhile it doesn’t hurt to be vocal about your opinions/concerns because there is also a good chance their updates are largely reactive to community input.
     
  10. John G

    John G

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    I'm nowhere near a top player and i hadn't played for ages, preferring Assetto Corsa for my hotlapping.

    I came back to GTS after a few months away to do a bit of the N24 but got so bored by the driving i stopped again within 1/2 an hour.

    I can't tell if its the physics or just the FFB through the wheel (T300RS) but something is severely lacking. All you feel is a very basic spring force. No detail of the track surface, and certainly no hint the wheel behaving as you would expect with understeer (the wheel should start to go light) or oversteer (the wheel should follow the direction of travel of the car and counter the slide). But you get nothing. Apart from a horrible vibration when you apply too much lock. And i can't seem to push as I've just got no idea what the car is doing on the edge of grip.
     
  11. Haitauer

    Haitauer

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    If im sure of anything its that this wont be the last physics update/change. We also dont have a clue od their aim and what are they trying to achieve/test with the latest changes.. TBA
     
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  12. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    What is to say the increased grip levels of 1.39 were not done to give a higher sense of a secure dry level grip and the slightly less grip of the main prior 1.38 physics level will not be used to simulate the "wet" grip levels while still making the cars very driveable on the "wet" track?

    As people adjust to the new high grip levels of 1.39 being normal the older easier to spin prior 1.38 physics would then be a reasonable sense of the wet affecting and causing a lower but still driveable grip level.

    Makes sense as to the change and a reason for it.
     
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  13. Groundfish

    Groundfish

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    Mechanical damage is one thing.
    I’m talking about failures, engine not running right etc-things outside the drivers direct control. For myself, specifically, when playing a video game I want to play, not have to overcome engine trouble, tranny problems, setup the car...In real life doing all those things is a tremendous timesink/headache to me.
    The great thing about a video game is I can press a button and pretend I am Lewis Hamilton.
    What gets me crossthreaded with so many people who post about these video games is that so many are so convinced that they know everything that they don’t appreciate the tremendous amount of resources it takes these companies to make them and instead throw stones all the time.
    When I was a kid I would have delivered a lot of newspapers to save money for games of this modern level of quality. I thought Joust was amazing.
    Now these games are of such high quality and all many can do is complain because they are not perfect enough. It’s first world problems.
    Anyhow, no one here is going to convince anyone else here that their opinion of the physics is more correct than someone else’s.
    Some posters are sincere, others are not.
    People who like pretending they are racers sure do get their knickers in a twist when the words physics or sim are mentioned.
    It’s like anyone who points out a flaw in their preferred video game is calling them a coward and a liar.
    To me it’s pretty humorous tbh.
     
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  14. FPV MIC

    FPV MIC

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    They already have options, just not in Sport Mode. In all of the single player part of the game you can just tune your car to oversteer. Putting a grade harder tyres on the rear is a very simple method.

    A sim rig improves the simulation factor for everyone ;).
    In what way? Again mentioning physics with no explanation, or is it just adding oversteer for you?

    I'm not sure you've ever driven high powered cars but they are easy to drive, and most road cars are tuned to understeer from the factory as a safety measure. FYI I have 300kw (400hp) and 410kw (550hp) cars that can easily be driven hard with the traction control off, and I've driven on tracks (track days) as well with slicks. I've only ever driven one race car so I can't really comment on the authenticity of them in this game. The one I did drive understeered as well, but I don't know if that was the owners preference, but I have a feeling it was.

    Driving on the road with most probably cold tyres, sometimes in the rain (which we don't have yet, *but I'll post more on that later) while trying to show off isn't really relevant... one short clip in there might be.

    I remember the (valid) sound arguments also and believe it or not people still tried the old vacuum cleaner jokes with GT Sport.

    I do agree about options, but again these are for non-physics related things and as you've acknowledged, there were complaints about camera shake. This is just another example of how subjective sims are.
    *This is what I've been thinking too, and I agree that it does make reasonable sense.
     
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  15. Beezer215

    Beezer215

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    I would say just turn all those features off in the options. Just because they may introduce features doesn't mean they have to force them on you at the same time.
    Anyways, like you say, I don't play GTS for realism, I turn it on to bop around for an hour and then get bored, if I can even hold out for that long. I have other sims I use for more realism.
    I think you're confusing complaining with appreciating a broad and eclectic feature set which includes more options. At least in my statement anyways
    I have spent plenty of track time in a '92 Mustang and I don't feel like working on that car anymore. Not one bit. It was sold years ago anyways. If they can implement any type of feature to have to wrench in the game, I would be interested in it. I understand that in this day and age the programming of these games is intensive and time consuming. That's why I patiently wait to see if the go back towards their roots with a GT7 or whatever they release next. I sure hope they do because GT Sport was kind of a swing and a miss for me in a lot of departments all the while being a step up in the beauty factor.
    I've spent lots of time on Joust by the way. I liked that too.
     
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  16. IncredibleMind

    IncredibleMind

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    There he compares AC to Project Cars...starting at approximately 15:25. GT isn’t quite there yet. Now, we’re having a subtle disagreement on what physics encompasses which is not a big deal but I’ll clarify.

    For me physics actually includes even how the car accelerates which is what I was pointing out in GTS with a controller. If I get into one of these quickly accelerating cars irl and slam on the gas pedal with 100% velocity/capacity all I can say is good luck controlling the car in general as I’ll likely proverbially “fly off a cliff”. It’s not even pretending to be realistic in GTS. I can mash the trigger in 100% with no concern about the car’s low speed physics or oversteer at all.

    Also, at a certain speed the cockpits in AC starts overtly or subtly vibrating. The cockpit even subtly shifts forward and backwards to add to the sense of speed instead of bobbing up and down like GTS.

    Maybe this isn’t a 100% physics issue but where do I place that concern? In my very personal opinion FFB, what you see on screen and handling are all physics related. Yes, I admit that in this case I’m going against the general consensus.



    I think driving in general is easy. However, racing at the very limits of a super car’s capacity can’t be that easy otherwise it would require no training and everyone would be a champion or at least we’d have a much wider variation of people at the top.

    I don’t think those people in the video are simply showing off. However, they are greatly overestimating the force those cars can produce relative to the amount of grip a car can provide on those surfaces.
     
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  17. IncredibleMind

    IncredibleMind

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    On a good note to anyone that thinks I’m only complaining I’ll tell you this...I truly feel GTS modeled their tracks with extreme precision. As another guy pointed out, he thinks the track variations are being absorbed by the car’s suspension in GTS.

    I strongly agree with this sentiment because if you use super soft tires you feel so much track variation it’s an insanely beautiful thing. I’d prefer that they aren’t conveying the track surfaces properly than for them not to have modeled them at all.

    At the end of the day and I’m going to stress this...I see nothing but good things in the future for GT(7?) no matter how negative I’ve admittedly come across.
     
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  18. FPV MIC

    FPV MIC

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    Now we're getting somewhere :tup:.

    The tyres are indeed part of the physics model and something PD has never done particularly well, but it's not that that's causing the issue now, it's the lack of modelling the way torque affects the car under hard acceleration imo, and something that was previously modelled in an earlier version (sorry, I can't remember which one). Remember before the last two updates we could barely take off from standstill without huge amounts of wheel spin and the only solution was traction control. This was seriously wrong and something I feel they're going the right direction with, but it needs the torque effects to add that bit of danger that's needed, the bit that makes you “fly off a cliff”, and the bit that can easily be controlled with decent throttle modulation. I like the way that I can decide whether or not to break traction around a corner now, as in real life, something that couldn't be done very well at all before, and it is something that's done well in AC. IMO though they are still heading the right direction, and I do really wonder if this last update was to prepare for the (hopefully) soon to be added rain and wet conditions.

    You're right, camera effects aren't physics related :tup:.... and most of those people are showing off in mostly very grip limited circumstances (check some of the bitumen quality, white lines and the like :crazy:), probably on cold tyres, and many other things that aren't really a factor on a race track.... and the standing start failures, they're mostly torque related :).
     
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  19. CLowndes888

    CLowndes888

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    Chances are the physics will be changed again for the next update.:lol:
     
  20. Groundfish

    Groundfish

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    Since we all seem to be having feel good moments right now, first off I must say if you look to the video above as some type of authoritative source, then you are in trouble. No specific points made, confuses ffb and physics, just repeats himself again and again, overall no information given or specific comparison made, just total bs, He actually says AC PUTS YOU RIGHT IN THE COCKPIT WHILE NOT EVEN USING COCKPIT VIEW LMAO, Just a pathetic attempt to smear PROJECT CARS 2.
    He even tried to trash that game by saying something about ‘too many controller players’
    WTF does it matter what a person uses?
    Beat them all or shut up. A good fast sim driver is a good fast sim driver period. It doesn’t matter if they are using a mouse or what have you!
    I’d rather play a controller player than a mindless AI.
    FYI I like Gt, I like Dirt Rally 2, I like AC, and I like Project Cars 2.
    Project Cars 2 has its issues with certain cars, but nothing said above on video had anything to do with reality.
    I was goofing around a few hours today and ran the GT3 Porsche on Sonoma in PC2, a track I have never run.
    Great track imo. Great elevation change, lots of corners... The physics and ffb are good with good settings and a nice wheel. I also ran some other gt3 and a 69 Penske Camaro.
    The Camaro is a handful, but fun.
    PC2 and AC are both great.
    Gt Sport is great too.

    With stuff like this where a games physics is communicated via ffb you have to try it yourself. I think all the games have a lot to offer.

    I reccomend buying all the driving games. Don’t listen to slanted reviews, just try em and see what you think.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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  21. breeminator

    breeminator

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    You've got to bear in mind the standard of driver. Not everyone who owns a high performance car is going to be top 0.1% standard. Many of the people crashing cars there would probably also be pretty bad at driving in GTS. People talk about being able to just mash the throttle with the latest GTS physics, but I was top 3% on last week's EMEA Suzuka leaderboard, and I'm still binning it a fair bit in the game. When I drive in races, a lot of the people around me on the track are clearly not totally in control of the car, so I'd say the vast majority of people do not find it a doddle to keep the cars in GTS under control at all times with the current physics.
     
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  22. breeminator

    breeminator

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    A clip from real life GT3/4 racing here, where a car goes significantly onto the grass and seems to be able to carry on without any significant loss of speed. There are places in GTS where just a tiny bit of contact between wheels and grass can make it very hard to keep control of the car, at least for someone of my skill level. So as far as this goes, it doesn't say to me that GTS makes it too easy to keep control of the car compared to real life:

     
  23. BallPtPenTheif

    BallPtPenTheif

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    Not all grass is equal. For example, during this past week's Nurburgring 24h endurance race, cars were passing with two wheels in the grass practically everywhere. This was possible due to the track being unusually dry as well as to the various paver bricks that are generously placed around the side of the track. Handling in the grass is also dependent upon the car you're driving. I was always fine with 2 wheels in the grass in the Porsches and I'd imagine AWD cars are fine too.

    So I'm not familiar with Donington and I don't know that it works well as proof.
     
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  24. Tillbeast

    Tillbeast

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    There is already so much understeer in the game there was not a need to add rain into the game, it was always on but without the graphics. Now we got wet conditions it's going to be like racing with comfort softs on an ice rink. Long gone are the days where you can attack a corner, now it's just sloooooooow into and hope you don't understeer when accelerating out even with a rwd car.
     
  25. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    Correct. All grass is not created equal. A grassy surface on hard dry dirt is very different from wet grass. Dry grass might not be asphalt, but it won't spin you out at the drop of a hat.


    I've been at the track when a mechanical failure hits. It sucks. No one was every happy about it. I think people are only considering that failures might happen to others, therefore they themselves would benefit from this increased "reality". Truth is, it strikes somewhat unpredictably and seemingly at random, and it will be universally frustrating.

    Driving is "boring" now? Maybe it's that people are just tired of the game because I don't find it boring by any means. I find it more difficult because more people are competitive now. I just started 7th in a daily race B where the top 7 were covered by 3/10ths of a second.
     
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  26. breeminator

    breeminator

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    Okay, but the grass in GTS, for example some bits of Suzuka, doesn't have any indication it's intended to be wet, so that isn't a reason why putting a tiny bit of the tyres on the grass should spin you in the game when the race car in that video was able to drive well onto the grass with little visible problem.
     
  27. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    It depends which level of dampness it's modeled after. I've put a wheel on the grass in game and the results from in car seemed far worse than they appeared in the replay. Generally speaking, I don't find the grass to be overly slick or overly grippy. It's slick enough that I want to stay off it, but not so slick as to treat it like a fire pit of death.
     
  28. Nielsen

    Nielsen

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    Any chance physics were dumbed down to support the inclusion of rain and the extra strain it puts on the PS4? Making the physics change one month earlier than the addition of rain would make the two things seem like they are unrelated even though they might be.
     
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  29. BallPtPenTheif

    BallPtPenTheif

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    I wouldn't say it's boring but before, when you pushed past the limit at least you looked cool doing it. Now when I watch top times, I can see the nose jutting back and forth on the exit like a Cadillac from people having to back off the throttle to keep the tires down. Even top times are using a staccato throttle pressure because it's easier to back off at the limit than to even try a smooth exit.

    This is random but here's some fun footage of a driving coach talking the owner of a Dodge Hellcat through the Ring. The Hellcat has less under-steer than a Porsche in GT Sport. Yeah, we'll all get used to it but the game just doesn't look or feel right.

    Oh, and thank you for being so pleasantly disagreeable and keeping the conversation civil.

     
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  30. R1600Turbo

    R1600Turbo Premium

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    I would just like to say that this physics update has actually made the Supra BETTER and fun to drive. I don't dread the GR Supra Cup anymore. So there is one positive...
     
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