These cars do not exist in Turn 10's eyes...

[Famine]

Because people (as in general) like them? As opposed to having too many Skylines in GT?

There's not a significant difference in the numbers of 911s in FM3 compared to the overall car list and the numbers of Skylines in GT4 compared to the overall car list.

I wasn't really bothered by the earlier Skylines of GT4, but more about the R32, R33 and R34 (mainly) versions. I couldn't tell the difference between the R34 Skylines, other than slight number differences.

And I seriously doubt you can tell the difference between 6 versions of the 996 GT3-RS, other than different paintjobs.

But you missed the point. Levelling the "too many Skylines" accusation at GT4 - where 92.5% of the cars aren't Skylines (and that doesn't just include R32-R34 models) - is exactly as nonsensical as levelling a "too many 911s" accusation at FM3 - where 93.3% of the cars aren't 911s. Yet people still do accuse GT4 of having too many Skylines. And who'd ever accused FM3 of having too many 911s? No-one, that's who (and why would they?)

 

[Devedander]

Every one of those cars besides the DBS can be mimicked by modifying the base version of the car which is available in the game.

That's an interesting point... I wonder if you count all the cars that can be created via upgrades/adjustements/tuning and painting what the total number of real cars possible in F3 is...

 

[drivatar]

all Caterham...they're so light it doesn't even appear in Turn10's eyes.

There are no open wheel cars included because they didn't model the suspension (visually). Look at Race Pro what would be the result of this: moving wheels but static rods don't look good.

 

[LaBounti]

Eric my fuss is The ZR-1 is one of the hottest new sports cars out there and many people would like to use it in the game and less than half of them are willing to pay extra for it when its on the disc. And its unknown if its going to be available, now do you see the fuss?

Why do people still bring up skylines in GT? Its made by Japanese developers and many Japanese like skylines(and miatas and RX-7's apparently) . I don't care about the number of skylines or the number of similar 911's. Its a shallow statement to bring up but people keep bringing it up and do not think you need additional licenses for grades of a car just logo's for some cars. .

PD said they dont have much as in DLC plans in the pipeline but turn10 says "Oh we got more cars we want you to pay for".

If they are shooting for 950 cars which includes the ZR-1,F458, GT-R, SLS and god knows what else is up PD sleeve. Then its going to be a more complete list even with Porsche or a Fox body Mustang and Box body Camaros .. Its all my opinion folks..

 

[Joey D]

If the ZR-1 sells more higher end versions of the game I see nothing wrong with it, it's a marketing thing. Pretty much all companies offer you more when you buy the better edition of anything.

 

[LaBounti]

You said "if". How can they sell more of something "Limited"? Its not limited if they just press out more because of the demand...

 

[Lucas]

There's not a significant difference in the numbers of 911s in FM3 compared to the overall car list and the numbers of Skylines in GT4 compared to the overall car list.

Yes, there is. I will explain why later.

However, do you know why people don't care about 911s in FM3 as opposed to Skylines in GT4? In my case at least it's because whenever I see those 1000 cars of GT5, I instantly believe a hundred of them will be Skylines. And though the same could be said about the 911s, it's the fact that 1000 is a big number that appears to include many different cars, unlike Forza's 400 cars.

And I seriously doubt you can tell the difference between 6 versions of the 996 GT3-RS, other than different paintjobs.

You are right, I can't. But it's the same case as above.

But you missed the point. Levelling the "too many Skylines" accusation at GT4 - where 92.5% of the cars aren't Skylines (and that doesn't just include R32-R34 models) - is exactly as nonsensical as levelling a "too many 911s" accusation at FM3 - where 93.3% of the cars aren't 911s.

Using percentages isn't the best way to determine how many "repeated" cars are in a game. I could say that 10% of a game's car roster is composed of Chevrolet Corvettes. A hint: the game's car list is composed of only 10 cars.

7.5% Skylines out of a game of over 700 cars are far superior than 6.7% 911s out of a game of over 400 cars.

 

[niky]

I've not heard any complaints about having too many 911s in FM3 yet...

Because they're Porsches. They're better than any Nissan, hands down.




















At least the interiors are.


Perhaps people hate Skylines because they're fast and relatively easy to drive? Though why anyone would complain of having a plethora of fast cars to drive in a game is beyond me...

 

[Tenacious D]

However, do you know why people don't care about 911s in FM3 as opposed to Skylines in GT4? In my case at least it's because whenever I see those 1000 cars of GT5, I instantly believe a hundred of them will be Skylines.

Yes, but an emotional reaction isn't very rational. Neither is justifying one.

 

[Joey D]

You said "if". How can they sell more of something "Limited"? Its not limited if they just press out more because of the demand...

Honestly who cares? They obviously are giving those who chose to spend more money more content, it makes sense. And "Limited" doesn't really mean anything, there are plenty of things out there with "Limited" in the name that aren't.

I probably wouldn't have bought the LE if it only came with an art book or something, but Forza's LE was on of the better LE's I can remember in recent time. Most only offer and artbook or a soundtrack or something else sort of lame. Forza gave you a keychain, a jump drive and additional game content. That is how all LE should be.

They offered more, thus they sold it for more and probably made more money. It's all pretty good marketing.

 

[Tenacious D]

Perhaps people hate Skylines because they're fast and relatively easy to drive? Though why anyone would complain of having a plethora of fast cars to drive in a game is beyond me...

Quoted for the God honest truth. 👍

 

[LaBounti]

Honestly who cares?

Anyone who replies.....

Anyway I think the Skyline hate comes from the overratedness and over saturation of the car in the GT series.

 

[Joey D]

It's rather stupid though, anyone who thinks that they should be entitled to premium content for a non-premium price has rocks in their head. That is not how the retail world works.

 

[niky]

Or you could spend even more money... buy a PS3 and wait for GT5, which has more Skylines... errh... cars... as standard.

Ah... capitalism.

 

[Bogie 19th]

That's an interesting point... I wonder if you count all the cars that can be created via upgrades/adjustements/tuning and painting what the total number of real cars possible in F3 is...

I would say yes. That would probably put the number of cars in the millions.

BTW, I am still amazed at people that say that FM3 doesn't have anything new. Everyday I am more and more amazed by the game, the new additions, the new cars, the excellent physics, you name it.

 

[Famine]

Yes, there is. I will explain why later.

[...]

Using percentages isn't the best way to determine how many "repeated" cars are in a game. I could say that 10% of a game's car roster is composed of Chevrolet Corvettes. A hint: the game's car list is composed of only 10 cars.

Using percentages is exactly the best way to determine how many repeated cars are in a game.

92.5% of GT4's car list is not Skylines. Hint: This is more non-Skylines than any other game has all cars.

However, do you know why people don't care about 911s in FM3 as opposed to Skylines in GT4?

I do. It's because it's an easy, idiotic stick to bash GT with. Allow me to demonstrate:

In my case at least it's because whenever I see those 1000 cars of GT5, I instantly believe a hundred of them will be Skylines.

See?

7.5% of GT4's car list is Skylines. Scale the list up to 1000 and does that number of Skylines scale up to 100? Nup. However, even if it did, you have 900 other cars. 900. That's more than FM3, FM2 and FM1 put together. In fact it's more than GT3, GT2 and GT1 put together.

7.5% Skylines out of a game of over 700 cars are far superior than 6.7% 911s out of a game of over 400 cars.

Lolwut?

You're still missing the point though. People bash GT for having "too many Skylines" (92.5% non-Skyline content in GT4). They don't bash FM for having "too many 911s" (93.3% non-911 content). The proportion of Skylines in GT4's car list is almost identical to the proportion of 911s in FM3's car list.

Sauce for the goose.

 

[TOUGEFC]

Also there is no Mazda 787b and Mazda Furai

 

[Bogie 19th]

And there is not 57 Chevy, nor a Ford Model T. And where is the 80 Buick Skylark? Why is there no 81 Accord Hatchback? Anyone notice we don't have a 73 Monte Carlo? Where are the AMCs?

No Aries K?

You mean this game doesn't have every car in the world? What the heck?

 

[Lucas]

Using percentages is exactly the best way to determine how many repeated cars are in a game.

Obviously it isn't, as I have just showed you. I would like to know you reason you laughed at my example, though. It would be much easier for me to reply "" after each one of your arguments.

92.5% of GT4's car list is not Skylines. Hint: This is more non-Skylines than any other game has all cars.

So what? There were only 2 Buicks in the game, only 2 Plymouths in the game, two Lancias without counting race versions, two Volvos, and more. Most of the cars came from "repeated" cars, such as Skylines, Imprezas and Lancer Evos.

I do. It's because it's an easy, idiotic stick to bash GT with. Allow me to demonstrate:

To bash GT? Do you think I'm bashing GT with that? No. All that I have said is that, whenever I look at those 1000 cars of GT, the thought that a hundred of them will be Skylines crosses my mind. Now I know that that is just speculation. However, looking at the past and knowing how many Skylines were in GT4 (the same way people look at past GTs, and believe GT5 will be awesome based on past success) I can't be blamed for thinking that way.

Do you know the difference between bashing and criticizing? If I were to bash GT4, why would I be playing it everyday? Why would have I made a story out of GT4? Why would I have bought a PS2 just for GT4? What is that bashing you are talking about? I'm criticizing the fact that those Skylines nobody seems to talk about in the GT4 forum could have been replaced with cars other manufacturers in the game lacked. Or at least, bring the car list to balance.

7.5% of GT4's car list is Skylines. Scale the list up to 1000 and does that number of Skylines scale up to 100? Nup. However, even if it did, you have 900 other cars. 900. That's more than FM3, FM2 and FM1 put together. In fact it's more than GT3, GT2 and GT1 put together.

Regardless of the Skylines issue, I have always said that quality comes before quantity. What I like about FM3's car list is that most of the cars there will be of use to me whenever I get the game, if I ever do. But in GT4, I was limited to 200 cars at best, the rest of them didn't appeal to me at all. Not saying this is everyone's case, but it is mine, and it is the reason why I don't like that many Skylines in the game.

Anyways, when people bring the 1000 cars compared to 400 cars, I can't avoid to think that some people are right in saying that what comes first in GT5 compared to Forza 3 is number of cars.

Lolwut?

You're still missing the point though. People bash GT for having "too many Skylines" (92.5% non-Skyline content in GT4). They don't bash FM for having "too many 911s" (93.3% non-911 content). The proportion of Skylines in GT4's car list is almost identical to the proportion of 911s in FM3's car list.

Sauce for the goose.

There are 27 Porsches in Forza Motorsport 3 (or at least that's what the official car list at forzamotorsport.net says).

12 of them are racecars. 15 of them obviously aren't. Out of those 15 only 8 carry the 911 designation. Those cars are:

- 1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RS
- 1982 Porsche 911 Turbo 3.3
- 1995 Porsche 911 GT2
- 1998 Porsche 911 GT1
- 2004 Porsche 911 GT3 (996)
- 2007 Porsche 911 GT3 (997)
- 2007 Porsche 911 Turbo (997)
- 2008 Porsche 911 GT2 (997)

You see, they have 911 in their names, and that's were the similarity ends, Famine. To be honest, I could black out the 1973 and 1982 911s out of the list, since they are the ones farther away from the rest. The 1995 and 1998 911s seem to be different enough to me (according to Wikipedia, which lists some of the characteristics of them). The 2004 and 2007 GT3 are different to me enough too, many things can happen in three years. With the drivetrain differences, I see the 2007 and 2008 Porsche's (977) to be different too. This is your example, mind you. If you are willing to point out why GT's Skylines are similar to Forza's 911s, then feel free to post. 👍

You see, I don't deny that GT's Skylines were all different. That's why I say "multiplied". But most of the people don't see the difference between them, including me, and that's where my criticism goes at: they should have put cars were the difference was noticeable.

Anyways, you are still missing the point too. I never said that Forza wasn't in similar conditions with GT. I did however pointed out why people don't complain about Forza's 911s. Did you never thought of why GT fanboys anti-Forza don't complain about Forza's 911s? And I mean those GT fanboys anti-Forza that bash virtually everything about Forza. Do you know? Simple: because they can't, they would love to get their hands on those Porsches.

Now, while this may seem I'm putting Forza on a pedestal, the truth is I'm not. There's nothing fanboy in saying what I believe it's the truth. If it wasn't, then why GT fanboys don't complain about Forza's 911s? They missed them? If you think of me as a Forza fanboy, then it's okay, I'm done discussing the matter: we will get nowhere if you are already qualifying me as one.

And could you please explain how i8 is the 6.7% of 400? Because the way I see it, it is the 2%. 2% of Forza 3's cars are 911s, and I don't see it such a big number, for a game of 400 cars.

Anyways, this is my final view on the matter: From an objective point of view, both games do have a preference for some of its cars. From my subjective point of view, I stick with Forza's Porsches, I would rather have them over Skylines any day of the week.

 

[Famine]

Obviously it isn't, as I have just showed you. I would like to know you reason you laughed at my example, though.

Because you didn't show anything.

So what? There were only 2 Buicks in the game, only 2 Plymouths in the game, two Lancias without counting race versions, two Volvos, and more.

Great. And?

Most of the cars came from "repeated" cars, such as Skylines, Imprezas and Lancer Evos.

That's either an exaggeration or a deliberate lie. Still, please demonstrate how there are 361 (most of the cars in the US version of GT4) Skylines, Imprezas and Lancer Evos. Feel free to tack on RX-7s, S2000s and NSXs if you think it'll help add up.

To bash GT? Do you think I'm bashing GT with that? No. All that I have said is that, whenever I look at those 1000 cars of GT, the thought that a hundred of them will be Skylines crosses my mind. Now I know that that is just speculation. However, looking at the past and knowing how many Skylines were in GT4 (the same way people look at past GTs, and believe GT5 will be awesome based on past success) I can't be blamed for thinking that way.

Yes you can. You have no foundation for believing that 10% of the cars in GT5 will be Skylines, because Skylines have never made up 10% of a GT game's car list.

Do you know the difference between bashing and criticizing?

Yes. That's the whole point of the comparison.

I'm criticizing the fact that those Skylines nobody seems to talk about in the GT4 forum could have been replaced with cars other manufacturers in the game lacked.

And, as has been discussed at length in the GT4 forum, no, they couldn't. You couldn't possibly be more wrong if you think any one car in GT4 is taking the place of another car that could have been in the game.

Or at least, bring the car list to balance.

"Balance" by whose terms?

Regardless of the Skylines issue, I have always said that quality comes before quantity. What I like about FM3's car list is that most of the cars there will be of use to me whenever I get the game, if I ever do. But in GT4, I was limited to 200 cars at best, the rest of them didn't appeal to me at all.

So you didn't drive them because they don't appeal to you? Or you did, but they didn't appeal to you after the fact? What about them didn't appeal to you?

I've just been through the car list in GT4 alphabetically and excluding every Acura (classed as duplicates of Honda, even though they aren't), Civic, NSX, S2000 and Skyline I've reached a count of 200 unique cars before I've even reached Jaguar. Jaguar.

Anyways, when people bring the 1000 cars compared to 400 cars, I can't avoid to think that some people are right in saying that what comes first in GT5 compared to Forza 3 is number of cars.

That's smashing. Wrong, but smashing.

Even if you exclude every car from GT4 which shares a name badge with any other car in GT4, you have a wider variety and number than in FM3.


Of course all of this is completely irrelevant because it's nothing to do with GT4 at all. That you keep bringing it up is testament both to the fact that you've completely missed the point and that you are one of the people who sees nothing wrong with saying "too many Skylines" but not having an issue with a statistically similar proportion of 911s.

There are 27 Porsches in Forza Motorsport 3 (or at least that's what the official car list at forzamotorsport.net says).

12 of them are racecars. 15 of them obviously aren't. Out of those 15 only 8 carry the 911 designation. Those cars are:

- 1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RS
- 1982 Porsche 911 Turbo 3.3
- 1995 Porsche 911 GT2
- 1998 Porsche 911 GT1
- 2004 Porsche 911 GT3 (996)
- 2007 Porsche 911 GT3 (997)
- 2007 Porsche 911 Turbo (997)
- 2008 Porsche 911 GT2 (997)

You see, they have 911 in their names, and that's were the similarity ends, Famine. To be honest, I could black out the 1973 and 1982 911s out of the list, since they are the ones farther away from the rest. The 1995 and 1998 911s seem to be different enough to me (according to Wikipedia, which lists some of the characteristics of them). The 2004 and 2007 GT3 are different to me enough too, many things can happen in three years. With the drivetrain differences, I see the 2007 and 2008 Porsche's (977) to be different too. This is your example, mind you. If you are willing to point out why GT's Skylines are similar to Forza's 911s, then feel free to post. 👍

Oh, dear Xenu...

You really don't get it, do you?

Still, it's interesting to note that if I picked up a bog standard, US PS2 and put in a bog standard copy of GT4, I'd have a carlist which is 7.5% Skylines (without, it's worth noting, any discrimination between "classic" Skylines and more recent ones - 1962-2004). If I picked up a bog standard, US XBox360 and put in a bog standard copy of FM3, I'd have a carlist which is 6.7% Porsche 911s (again, with no discrimination between model variants - 1982-2008).

Add up all those cars with "Skyline" on them and that's the result you get. Add up all those cars with "911" on them and that's the result you get. If you start excluding variants from the 911 list because of generational differences and because some or race cars and you have to do the same for variants of the Skyline. Sauce for the goose.

And could you please explain how i8 is the 6.7% of 400? Because the way I see it, it is the 2%. 2% of Forza 3's cars are 911s, and I don't see it such a big number, for a game of 400 cars.

I already did in the first post on this matter:

Still, it's interesting to note that if I picked up a bog standard, US PS2 and put in a bog standard copy of GT4, I'd have a carlist which is 7.5% Skylines (without, it's worth noting, any discrimination between "classic" Skylines and more recent ones - 1962-2004). If I picked up a bog standard, US XBox360 and put in a bog standard copy of FM3, I'd have a carlist which is 6.7% Porsche 911s (again, with no discrimination between model variants - 1982-2008).

Anyways, this is my final view on the matter: From an objective point of view, both games do have a preference for some of its cars. From my subjective point of view, I stick with Forza's Porsches, I would rather have them over Skylines any day of the week.

And that's why you are one of the people happy to point out "too many Skylines", but not point out that there's "too many 911s".

As I said, sauce for the goose.


Edit: For everyone else, I'm not criticising FM3 for having "too many 911s". That'd be silly. I'm pointing out that's it's almost equally as silly as criticising GT4 for having "too many Skylines" because, stock-for-stock and badge-for-badge, there is a statistically insignificant difference between the proportion of 911s in FM3 and the proportion of Skylines in GT4. And that still there are some people who will.

 

[Dave A]

You know what really irks me about Forza 3, thoes bloody 911's.

There's far too many of the things.

 

[Famine]

You know what really irks me about Forza 3, thoes bloody 911's.

There's far too many of the things.

 

[Lucas]

Because you didn't show anything.

Yes, I did. I gave and example on how percentages is a flawed way to demostrate how many cars in a game I repeated. My example was that if you tell someone "Racing Generation II" car list is composed 10% of Corvettes, some people will understand "Holy 🤬, many Corvettes!", while the game may only have 10 cars, which one of them being a Corvette. Thus, you can't use percentages. We have to get to a number that doesn't depend of another number. Which percentage isn't.

Great. And?

And that just shows that there was a terrible unbalance between the different manufacturers of the game. Over 80 manufacturers, but most of them had few cars compared to japanese manufacturers featured in the game (it's a japanese game alright, but being american didn't make Forza have a terrible unbalance between american cars compared to the rest of the list), and some only featured concept cars, such as Cadillac.

That's either an exaggeration or a deliberate lie.

None of the two, but I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it. I meant to say that a good part of the car list of GT4 came from "repeated" cars.

Yes you can. You have no foundation for believing that 10% of the cars in GT5 will be Skylines, because Skylines have never made up 10% of a GT game's car list.

I never said that I believed 10% of GT5's cars would be Skylines. I said a hundred, and if I wanted to say 10%, I would have said 10%.

Yes. That's the whole point of the comparison.

Then why do you asume that people complaining about Skylines are bashing GT? You obviously don't know the difference, then.

And, as has been discussed at length in the GT4 forum, no, they couldn't. You couldn't possibly be more wrong if you think any one car in GT4 is taking the place of another car that could have been in the game.

Did I said they took the place of other cars? I never said anything similar to "because of that Skyline there, my Ford Falcon didn't make it to the game". However, I could have said as well "because of that Aston Martin there, my Ford Falcon...". The truth is that there was a very limited selection of Aston Martin's in the game, while Skylines were the most numerous group of cars by name badge. I explained before that a few of those Skylines could have been replaced with cars that would have made the car list of GT more varied.

"Balance" by whose terms?

By the terms of everyone I have seen saying that GT's car list was unbalanced.

So you didn't drive them because they don't appeal to you? Or you did, but they didn't appeal to you after the fact? What about them didn't appeal to you?

I drove some of the Skylines in the game: the older versions and the newer versions. What I don't like is having like 10 Skylines that are basically the same as the Skylines that I have driven.

And as a general, cars didn't appealed to me because of looks, drivetrain, etc.

I've just been through the car list in GT4 alphabetically and excluding every Acura (classed as duplicates of Honda, even though they aren't), Civic, NSX, S2000 and Skyline I've reached a count of 200 unique cars before I've even reached Jaguar. Jaguar.

Unique doesn't equal attractive cars, as far as I'm concerned. And to me, most of the cars of GT4 were not attractive, but that's subjective.

That's smashing. Wrong, but smashing.

Even if you exclude every car from GT4 which shares a name badge with any other car in GT4, you have a wider variety and number than in FM3.

Being able to choose only one Cadillac, which is a concept, or two Buicks isn't exactly my idea of variety. Forza 3 is basically the same in that aspect, but it at least has a more oriented concept of variety than GT.

And what does that have to do with what I've said? You are only saying what I quoted, but with different words.

Of course all of this is completely irrelevant because it's nothing to do with GT4 at all. That you keep bringing it up is testament both to the fact that you've completely missed the point and that you are one of the people who sees nothing wrong with saying "too many Skylines" but not having an issue with a statistically similar proportion of 911s.

What part of this...

I never said that Forza wasn't in similar conditions with GT.

...didn't you read?

I don't have an issue with the 911s because they are much different as far as I can see, also.

Oh, dear Xenu...

You really don't get it, do you?

Add up all those cars with "Skyline" on them and that's the result you get. Add up all those cars with "911" on them and that's the result you get. If you start excluding variants from the 911 list because of generational differences and because some or race cars and you have to do the same for variants of the Skyline. Sauce for the goose.

The result I got now is 16. Only 16 cars in Forza 3 with the number 911 on their name. If you can get the number of Skylines number under 20, congratulations. Here's the list for you:

2008 Porsche #16 Dyson Racing RS Spyder Evo
1987 Porsche #17 Racing Porsche AG 962c
2008 Porsche #2 Gruppe Orange Racing 911 GT3 Cup
1998 Porsche #26 Porsche AG 911 GT1-98
2005 Porsche #31 Peterson-White Lightning 911 GT3-RSR
2008 Porsche #45 Flying Lizard 911 GT3-RSR
2005 Porsche #5 XBOX 360 911 GT3-RSR
2005 Porsche #55 Applied Materials 911 GT3 Cup
2005 Porsche #66 AXA Racing 911 GT3 Cup
2008 Porsche #7 Penske Racing RS Spyder Evo
2007 Porsche #80 Flying Lizard 911 GT3-RSR
2006 Porsche #82 Red Bull 911 GT3 Cup
1995 Porsche 911 GT2
1982 Porsche 911 Turbo 3.3
1970 Porsche 914/6
1989 Porsche 944 Turbo
1987 Porsche 959
1998 Porsche 911 GT1
2004 Porsche 911 GT3 (996)
2008 Porsche 911 GT2 (997)
2007 Porsche 911 GT3 (997)
2007 Porsche 911 Turbo (997)
2003 Porsche Boxster S
2003 Porsche Carrera GT
1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RS
2009 Porsche Cayenne Turbo S
2006 Porsche Cayman S

If you want me to, I will do the list of Skylines and post it here.

I already did in the first post on this matter:

Then your math is a bit off...

And that's why you are one of the people happy to point out "too many Skylines", but not point out that there's "too many 911s".

As I said, sauce for the goose.

16 out of 400 isn't yet the percentage you claimed. The reason why I complain is simple: I don't own a Xbox 360. There's no point in me to complain about the 911s because:

1 - What good do I get from complaining if I won't be able to afford the next Forza game? I would be wasting my time.
2 - I like those 911s.








EDIT: Seeing your last edit, I know you are right. I have said that you are right in the car list debate. The only thing that we can't seem to agree with is that Forza still has a lower porcentage of Porsches compared to GT's Skylines.

 

[Famine]

Yes, I did. I gave and example on how percentages is a flawed way to demostrate how many cars in a game I repeated. My example was that if you tell someone "Racing Generation II" car list is composed 10% of Corvettes, some people will understand "Holy 🤬, many Corvettes!", while the game may only have 10 cars, which one of them being a Corvette. Thus, you can't use percentages. We have to get to a number that doesn't depend of another number. Which percentage isn't.

Which is smashing again, but irrelevant and badly, badly flawed.

And that just shows that there was a terrible unbalance between the different manufacturers of the game. Over 80 manufacturers, but most of them had few cars compared to japanese manufacturers featured in the game (it's a japanese game alright, but being american didn't make Forza have a terrible unbalance between american cars compared to the rest of the list), and some only featured concept cars, such as Cadillac.

And again irrelevant to the point.

I never said that I believed 10% of GT5's cars would be Skylines. I said a hundred, and if I wanted to say 10%, I would have said 10%.

Last I checked, 100 is 10% of a thousand.

You have no reason to believe 100 of the "1000" cars in GT5 will be Skylines. The raw numbers don't support it. The percentages don't support it.

Then why do you asume that people complaining about Skylines are bashing GT?

Because they are?

Anyone with a modicum of sense would notice that more than 90% of the cars aren't Skylines, and that "more than 90%" represents more cars than there has ever been in any other game... ever.

Did I said they took the place of other cars?

Yep. And you say it again here:

I explained before that a few of those Skylines could have been replaced with cars that would have made the car list of GT more varied.

And, of course, they couldn't.

By the terms of everyone I have seen saying that GT's car list was unbalanced.

By those terms, the FM3 car list is unbalanced.

I drove some of the Skylines in the game: the older versions and the newer versions. What I don't like is having like 10 Skylines that are basically the same as the Skylines that I have driven.

And as a general, cars didn't appealed to me because of looks, drivetrain, etc.

Unique doesn't equal attractive cars, as far as I'm concerned. And to me, most of the cars of GT4 were not attractive, but that's subjective.

Yeah...

Being able to choose only one Cadillac, which is a concept, or two Buicks isn't exactly my idea of variety. Forza 3 is basically the same in that aspect, but it at least has a more oriented concept of variety than GT.

Except that we can easily show that it doesn't. And which the statement you quoted to directly respond to for that line actually directly contradicts.

I don't have an issue with the 911s because they are much different as far as I can see, also.

You don't have an issue with the 911s because you like 911s. Great. That's not a terrific position to argue objectively, I'm afraid.

[List of 911s]

If you want me to, I will do the list of Skylines and post it here.

Remember that I created the complete GT4 car companion and that it's irrelevant because the point isn't what you seem to think it is.

Then your math is a bit off...

Nope. It's spot on.

16 out of 400 isn't yet the percentage you claimed.

Correct, it isn't. Now reread the post.

EDIT: Seeing your last edit, I know you are right. I have said that you are right in the car list debate. The only thing that we can't seem to agree with is that Forza still has a lower porcentage of Porsches compared to GT's Skylines.

Yes it does have a lower percentage of 911s. Last I checked, 6.7% is lower than 7.5%. It's just not statistically significantly lower.

You can get the number of 911s down to just 5.2%, and the number of Skylines down to 7.4%, before wading into semantics about whether certain types of cars on the list should be excluded from the calculation because they're different, or tuner cars, or racing versions. But the fanboys don't - they include everything that's a Skyline (some include the R35 and the V35, but not the G35 Sedan/Coupe even though they're the V35 with a different name, because they're idiots). If you're going to do that for the Skyline you must do the same for the 911 (and I get a feeling I might have to explain "sauce for the goose").


Stock-for-stock, badge-for-badge, there are 6.7% 911s in FM3 and 7.5% Skylines in GT4. To complain about one but not the other is idiocy. There are 93.3% non-911s in FM3 and 92.5% non-Skylines in GT4. To complain about either is idiocy.

 

[Lucas]

Which is smashing again, but irrelevant and badly, badly flawed.

You say badly flawed, but how? And why irrelevant? Why didn't you say it was irrelevant in the first place, so I would have not wasted my time?

And again irrelevant to the point.

Funny that the case of this irrelevant point was because you said "and?".

Last I checked, 100 is 10% of a thousand.

You have no reason to believe 100 of the "1000" cars in GT5 will be Skylines. The raw numbers don't support it. The percentages don't support it.

As I said, I never said 10% of the car list. If I would have said that, you would have been right. You know why did I say 100? Because with each installation, we have got more cars (most cases), and with those cars, more Skylines. There hasn't been a constant of Skylines added, but I wouldn't be surprised with a number around 100 or 90.

Because they are?

Not in my case, along with other people.

Yep. And you say it again here:

And, of course, they couldn't.

Yep, you are right. But I would be right, anyways. There's a reason why we didn't got more cars in the game, and it's probably because there wasn't enough space. We can replace the entire car list for different cars. And we can replace those Skylines most people don't like for other cars they do like.

By those terms, the FM3 car list is unbalanced.

Sauce for the goose.

Except that we can easily show that it doesn't. And which the statement you quoted to directly respond to for that line actually directly contradicts.

Or you wrote something wrong there, or I don't understand english well enough to respond to that.

You don't have an issue with the 911s because you like 911s. Great. That's not a terrific position to argue objectively, I'm afraid.

Would you mind if you had a game where you have over 10 versions of the car that you like? From a subjective point of view, where all that matters is my satisfaction for buying that game, I wouldn't. I would be happy.

From an objective point of view, I do find both lists unbalanced. If Forza 3 had a car list with 200 Porsches, and the game had only 400 cars, I would indeed say that Forza is in a worse position than GT. Both are unbalanced, no doubt about it.

Yes it does have a lower percentage of 911s. Last I checked, 6.7% is lower than 7.5%. It's just not statistically significantly lower.

You have to keep in mind that when people say "Skylines", they don't mean only Skylines, but Evos, Imprezas, etc. I mean that they complain about "repeated" cars as a whole, not just Skylines.

You can get the number of 911s down to just 5.2%, and the number of Skylines down to 7.4%, before wading into semantics about whether certain types of cars on the list should be excluded from the calculation because they're different, or tuner cars, or racing versions. But the fanboys don't - they include everything that's a Skyline (some include the R35 and the V35, but not the G35 Sedan/Coupe even though they're the V35 with a different name, because they're idiots). If you're going to do that for the Skyline you must do the same for the 911 (and I get a feeling I might have to explain "sauce for the goose").

Don't worry, I just looked it up on google.

Stock-for-stock, badge-for-badge, there are 6.7% 911s in FM3 and 7.5% Skylines in GT4. To complain about one but not the other is idiocy. There are 93.3% non-911s in FM3 and 92.5% non-Skylines in GT4. To complain about either is idiocy.

Regardless of whether those percentages are right or not, the truth is the 911s in FM3 are lower than the Skylines in GT4. As long as the idea it's there, I'm okay with it.

Hopefully you will agree with me on my final view that both car lists are unbalanced.

 

[Worst_Driver]

No Aries K?

Hey I want my aries K or else I won't play this game.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I never had a GT game other than GT5p, so I can't confirm 5 billion versions of the same car. But, GTPSP has 830 cars it appears with a lot of Nissan's and Skylines:

486
NISMO 270R '94
487
NISMO 400R '96
488
NISMO Fairlady Z S-tune concept by GRANTURISMO (Z33) '02
489
NISMO Fairlady Z Z-tune (Z33) '03
490
NISMO GT-R LM Road Going Version '95
491
NISMO Skyline GT-R R-tune (R34) '99
492
NISMO Skyline GT-R S-tune (R32) '00
493
Nissan 180SX Type X '96
494
Nissan 200SX '96
495
Nissan 200SX (S14) '96
496
Nissan 240RS Rally Car '85
497
Nissan 240SX '96
498
Nissan 240SX (S14) '96
499
Nissan 240ZG (HS30) '71
500
Nissan 300ZX 2by2 (Z32) '98
501
Nissan 300ZX 2seater (Z32) '89
502
Nissan 300ZX 2seater (Z32) '98
503
Nissan 350Z (Z33, EU) '03
504
Nissan 350Z (Z33, US) '03
505
Nissan 350Z Concept LM Race Car
506
Nissan 350Z Gran Turismo 4 Limited Edition (Z33) '05
507
Nissan 350Z Roadster (Z33, EU) '03
508
Nissan 350Z Roadster (Z33, US) '03
509
Nissan Be-1 '87
510
Nissan BLUEBIRD 1600 Deluxe (510) '69
511
Nissan BLUEBIRD Hardtop 1800SSS (910) '79
512
Nissan BLUEBIRD Rally Car (510) '69
513
Nissan CALSONIC SKYLINE (JGTC) '00
514
Nissan CALSONIC SKYLINE GT-R Race Car '93
515
Nissan CUBE EX (FF/CVT) '02
516
Nissan CUBE X '98
517
Nissan C-WEST RAZO SILVIA (JGTC) '01
518
Nissan EXA CANOPY L.A.Version Type S '88
519
Nissan Fairlady 2000 (SR311) '68
520
Nissan Fairlady 240ZG (HS30) '71
521
Nissan Fairlady Z 280Z-L 2seater (S130) '78
522
Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX (Z31) '83
523
Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX TwinTurbo 2seater (Z32) '89
524
Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX Version R TwinTurbo 2by2 (Z32) '98
525
Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX Version S TwinTurbo 2seater (Z32) '98
526
Nissan Fairlady Z Concept LM Race Car
527
Nissan Fairlady Z Roadster (Z33) '03
528
Nissan Fairlady Z Version S (Z33) '02
529
Nissan Fairlady Z Version ST (Z33 Option Wheel) '02
530
Nissan FALKEN☆GT-R Race Car '04
531
Nissan GRAN TURISMO SKYLINE GT-R '01
532
Nissan GRAN TURISMO SKYLINE GT-R (PaceCar) '01
533
Nissan GT-R Concept (Tokyo Motor Show 2001)
534
Nissan GT-R Concept LM Race Car
535
Nissan GT-R SpecV '09
536
Nissan LOCTITE ZEXEL GT-R (JGTC) '00
537
Nissan March 12c 5door '03
538
Nissan March G# '99
539
Nissan MICRA '03
540
Nissan mm-R Cup Car '01
541
Nissan MOTUL PITWORK Z (JGTC) '04
542
Nissan OPTION Stream Z '04
543
Nissan PAO '89
544
Nissan PENNZOIL Nismo GT-R (JGTC) '99
545
Nissan PENNZOIL ZEXEL GT-R (JGTC) '01
546
Nissan PRIMERA 2.0Te '90
547
Nissan PRIMERA 20V '01
548
Nissan PRIMERA 20V (EU) '01
549
Nissan R390 GT1 Race Car '98
550
Nissan R390 GT1 Road Car '98
551
Nissan R89C Race Car '89
552
Nissan R92CP Race Car '92
553
Nissan SILEIGHTY '98
554
Nissan SILVIA (CSP311) '65
555
Nissan SILVIA 240RS (S100) '83
556
Nissan SILVIA K's (S13) '91
557
Nissan SILVIA K's (S13) '88
558
Nissan SILVIA K's AERO (S14) '93
559
Nissan SILVIA K's AERO (S14) '96
560
Nissan SILVIA Q's (S13) '88
561
Nissan SILVIA Q's (S13) '91
562
Nissan SILVIA Q's AERO (S14) '93
563
Nissan SILVIA Q's AERO (S14) '96
564
Nissan SILVIA spec-R AERO (S15) '99
565
Nissan SILVIA spec-S AERO (S15) '99
566
Nissan SILVIA Varietta (S15) '00
567
Nissan SKYLINE 1500Deluxe (S50D-1) '63
568
Nissan SKYLINE 2000GT-B (S54A) '67
569
Nissan SKYLINE 2000GT-R (KPGC110) '73
570
Nissan SKYLINE Coupe 350GT '03
571
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R (R32) '89
572
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R (R32) '91
573
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R (R33) '95
574
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R (R33) '96
575
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R (R33) '97
576
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R (R34) '99
577
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R (R34) '00
578
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R M･spec (R34) '01
579
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R M･spec Nür (R34) '02
580
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R N1 (R32) '91
581
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R N1 (R33) '95
582
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R Special Color Midnight Purple II (R34) '99
583
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R Special Color Midnight Purple III (R34) '00
584
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec (R32) '93
585
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec (R33) '97
586
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec (R33) '95
587
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec (R33) '96
588
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec (R34) '99
589
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec II (R32) '94
590
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec II (R34) '00
591
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec II N1 (R34) '00
592
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec II Nür (R34) '02
593
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec LM Limited (R33) '96
594
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec N1 (R32) '93
595
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V･spec N1 (R34) '99
596
Nissan SKYLINE GTS25 Type S (R32) '91
597
Nissan SKYLINE GTS-R (R31) '87
598
Nissan SKYLINE GTS-t Type M (R32) '91
599
Nissan SKYLINE GTS-t Type M (R32) '89
600
Nissan SKYLINE Hard Top 2000 RS-X Turbo C (R30) '84
601
Nissan SKYLINE Hard Top 2000 Turbo RS (R30) '83
602
Nissan SKYLINE Hard Top 2000GT-R (KPGC10) '70
603
Nissan SKYLINE Sedan 300GT '01
604
Nissan SKYLINE Sedan 350GT-8 '02
605
Nissan SKYLINE Sport Coupe (BLRA-3) '62
606
Nissan STAGEA 25t RS FOUR S '98
607
Nissan STAGEA 260RS AutechVersion '98
608
Nissan XANAVI HIROTO GT-R (JGTC) '01
609
Nissan XANAVI NISMO GT-R (JGTC) '03
610

Dang...45 Skylines. Now that is some serious Nissan.

 

[Tenacious D]

Hopefully you will agree with me on my final view that both car lists are unbalanced.

I'm sorry you feel the need to go on ranting like this unnecessarily, Codie. I mean, lookit. Say that GT5 came with 1000 vehicles, but 200 of them were numerous models of Skylines, Lancers and Subarus. Let's also say that 150 of them were also dinky low powered cars, trucks and SUVs you wouldn't waste the time to even try. What does that leave you?

650 cars that you'd want to at least take for a spin. Almost 50% more than are in Forza 3.

Are you going to argue that this is a bad thing? More choices?

Do you hate restaurants for offering you too many food choices? Or stores for offering too many things to buy?

I swear dude, I've heard some lame arguments, but yours is just ludacris.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Are you going to argue that this is a bad thing? More choices?

I am always fighting for more choice, so I too don't see anything wrong with giving more choices.

 

[Famine]

Bogie - there's 54 Skylines in GT4. More if you include the G35 sedan and coupe (which are rebadged V35 Skylines) and the R35 GT-R concept and concept racer.

Hopefully you will agree with me on my final view that both car lists are unbalanced.

Nope. Look:

There are 93.3% non-911s in FM3 and 92.5% non-Skylines in GT4. To complain about either is idiocy.

You know why did I say 100? Because with each installation, we have got more cars (most cases), and with those cars, more Skylines. There hasn't been a constant of Skylines added, but I wouldn't be surprised with a number around 100 or 90.

GT1 - 16/163 (9.82%)
GT2 - 38/597 (6.37%)
GT3 - 14/189 (7.41%)
GTC - 10/105 (9.52%)
GT4P - 4/63 (6.35%)
GT4 - 54/729 (7.41%)
GT5P - 7/74 (9.46%)

The series has never hit 10% Skyline penetration. The closest was in GT1 when there was also the least number of cars. Every significant increase in the car list so far has reduced in, at most, no increase in the Skyline penetration (compare GT3 to GT4). Smaller car lists have increased Skyline penetration.

Expectation of 10% penetration or 100 total Skylines in a 1000 strong car list is unfounded.