They could actually do this in GT5

[Zardoz]

There's nothing stopping PD from having an entire class of pre-war Grand Prix cars. They seem to be at least a little interested in them, considering that they included the Auto-Union Streamliner in GT4.

Obviously, there's no licensing problems between Audi and PD, so they could certainly put these in GT5:

Auto-Union Type C 1936

Auto-Union Type D 1939

PD gets along extremely well with Mercedes-Benz, so these would be in for sure:

Mercedes W125 1937

Mercedes W163 1939

Mercedes W154 1938

And apparently they have no licensing problems with Alfa Romeo, so we could get this, as well:

Alfa 158

Alfa 158

Sure, several animated drivers in open-cockpit cars are way more than the PS2 can handle, but we have to assume the PS3 can do it pretty easily. Can you imagine a field of 8 or 10 of the above old soldiers in their own race series? What a hoot!

The only tough problem would be running them on modern tracks, which would look a little weird, but I could live with that. Asking for old-style tracks would be way too much.

Not likely, I know, but there's probably nothing stopping PD from doing it. Fun to imagine, at least...

 

[Dottinger-Hohe]

i personally think it's a great idea. i think at least that the sudschliefe should be added as an option to the nurburgring. on the same vein i think that should be a bridge to gantry option for the nurburgring, it would make comparing modern lap times a bit more realistic.

 

[a6m5]

They are beautiful cars, but how do they handle?

Also, I've been noticing your avatars and ummm............... are you like a WWII veteran by any chance? How old are you, man?

 

[niky]

^^^lovely cars. we can just hope.

 

[Crash]

I think having those cars would be great. Those cars are historic and important, and would add to GT5 significantly.

I wouldn't so quickly assume that there are absolutely no problems with licensing though. Just because a manufactuer allows one of their cars to be in their, does that mean they'll let other models? Also, some manufacturers might give PD "blanket licenses", while PD must individually license each car with some manufactueres. If this was so with say Alfa and Auto Union, they might charge PD sky high prices for these prewar race cars, high enough that PD might not accept. On top of that, supposedly PD drives every single car that goes into their games. There might be a possibility that those cars sitting in a museum, might not be allowed to be tested.

Certainly, I don't work for PD, and what I might have said were wrong and they DO make it into GT5. In that case, great, I'll be looking forward to driving them then. Otherwise though, we can only hope that PD will include them.

 

[vtec_guy]

Did they race on the nurburgring in the time of those cars? I presume not if it was pre war lol.... stupid question.

 

[Dave A]

No Nurb pre-war, I think they are beautiful cars, last year I got a close look at an Auto Union Audi built an exact replica of the Type-D and I got withing 3 feet of it. It was so nice to get such a close look at that. I'm totally up for these cars being in the next GT.

 

[amar212]

Story of Caracciola, Von Brausewitz, Dick Seaman, Tazio Nuvolari and all the other legends. That era is more then welcomed.

Only thing that stays in way is a ethical problem - the races of those cars in pre-war era were supported as Nazi-propaganda tool. Hitler and Nazis was very keen to stress that German cars were the best at that time.

Hitler himself was a great race fan, and all the Auto Unions and Mercedes-Benz teams were directly monitored by SS and army as a perfect way of showing the German superiority. Even the famous record-breaking period of the "real" Streamlines (both Auto Union and MB) were made in idea to show the "Uberness" of German technical power.

BMW, Auto Union and MB were heavy-financing the Nazi movement - they've had to because there was no other option, but during late 30's Nazi Swastika iconography was only thing you could see around the Nurburgring or Spa tracks, together with the sweet insignia on team outfits and especially on their sleewes.

Personaly, I do not look at those cars and that racing-era from that angle, but some could take it into concern and make the game be seen from unwanted prysm. Guess that it could be very risky for PD.

However, I just hope to see those cars and both late 30's Nurb and Spa in the next game.

 

[Danny]

Call me dumb, but I'd find it to be spitting on the gravestones to drift these.

 

[Zardoz]

...Only thing that stays in way is a ethical problem - the races of those cars in pre-war era were supported as Nazi-propaganda tool. Hitler and Nazis was very keen to stress that German cars were the best at that time.

Hitler himself was a great race fan, and all the Auto Unions and Mercedes-Benz teams were directly monitored by SS and army as a perfect way of showing the German superiority. Even the famous record-breaking period of the "real" Streamlines (both Auto Union and MB) were made in idea to show the "Uberness" of German technical power.

BMW, Auto Union and MB were heavy-financing the Nazi movement - they've had to because there was no other option, but during late 30's Nazi Swastika iconography was only thing you could see around the Nurburgring or Spa tracks, together with the sweet insignia on team outfits and especially on their sleewes.

Personaly, I do not look at those cars and that racing-era from that angle, but some could take it into concern and make the game be seen from unwanted prysm. Guess that it could be very risky for PD...

Very good point, of course. Its definitely an issue. That alone could keep them from even considering it. Sure, the cars can be appreciated strictly on their own, and the exploits of the drivers who hurled them around are legendary, but the dark aspect is there, and it may well be something that PD or Sony would not want to have to deal with, should it ever arise.

 

[TheCracker]

Very good point, of course. Its definitely an issue. That alone could keep them from even considering it. Sure, the cars can be appreciated strictly on their own, and the exploits of the drivers who hurled them around are legendary, but the dark aspect is there, and it may well be something that PD or Sony would not want to have to deal with, should it ever arise.

We've already got the early VW Beetle (built to Hitler's specifications) and Auto-Union Streamliner in GT4 so why not?

 

[Dave A]

Thats what I was thinking. I think people these days can cope with a car game including certain cars because they're cars.

 

[Zardoz]

We've already got the early VW Beetle (built to Hitler's specifications) and Auto-Union Streamliner in GT4 so why not?

Correct, but you almost have to wonder why the issue hasn't been raised before. It certainly could be, couldn't it?

I'm hesitant to even post this, but I'll do it for the sake of the discussion:

What a nightmare for Sony this could turn into, huh? If I was a corporate PR type, I'd weigh the risks versus the benefits, and have to say "no way"...

 

[Dave A]

But who today, is going to see a german Gran-prix car from that era in a GT game and have a go at PD for promoting the Hitler regime. The answer is no-one, simple as.

 

[RedWolfRacer]

As far as these old cars being driven by PD: they drive only what the manufacturers don't already have the data for. To say that they drive ALL the cars in the GT series would be an un-whole truth: they drive most of them but only if they cannot find all the data and even then if they cannot do the measurements manually. That's not to say that they don't have their fun, though.... lol

That said, I think it would be hard to come across one of those older machines but very easy to replicate one. Or if they had to they could label the car as a replica in the game even and be satisfied that this is not the actual car from decades ago.

I would also like to point out that NO one and I mean NO one in their right mind would take a look at GT and instantly think of Hitler and the Nazi regime. I can see it now: "Hey, man, wanna race in GT5?" "Hell no! You know they support Hitler, right??? And what if I was Jewish, man?!?!? They supported that crap??"

No. Most people just don't think that way. But.... *thinks of the women that sued McDonalds over HOT coffee....*

 

[Dave A]

Thinks of the woman that sued a microwave manufacturer because the microwave killed her cat when she tried to dry it off in it.

 

[63AvantiR3]

No. Most people just don't think that way. But.... *thinks of the women that sued McDonalds over HOT coffee....*

True there. I also had a friend in high school, he was Jewish and would not ever buy a Ford. Why? Because ol' Henry himself was anti-Semitic. We were looking at a fellow classmates 5L Mustang when we had this conversation. I couldn't believe that he still carried that over the Ford Motor Company. I told him that Henry died years ago and that if he (Colin) liked everything about a car except for its badging, that he should still get it. If the amenities are there, the comfort, fit, finish, you name it... if it fits you like a glove, buy it.

Cool idea for cars, I'd like to see ones like that and the Mercedes SSK. But based on my above example, it could be argued that Ford should be removed from the game as well because of its past.

I remember hearing about that, live4speed. I think I heard that the cat exploded in the microwave. I'm a cat person so that hits home

 

[iceburns288]

Now that Maserati is apparently under Alfa's wing, I wonder if we could get some of them old Tridents too!

 

[Zardoz]

Now that Maserati is apparently under Alfa's wing, I wonder if we could get some of them old Tridents too!

Its getting tough to keep up with who owns Maserati these days. From Wikipedia:


In 2005, as a consequence of the termination of the agreement between Fiat and General Motors under which GM may have been obliged to buy Fiat's car division, Maserati was separated from Ferrari and brought back under Fiat's full control. Fiat plans to create a sports and luxury division from Maserati and another of its marques, Alfa Romeo. GM had to pay Fiat around $2,000,000,000.

Later this year Maserati in whole will be sold to Alessandro and Felix Benetton for a staggering amount of 2,600,000,000 and will be under sole management by the two brothers. Alessandro and Felix Benetton "of United Colors of Benetton" are the heirs to the worlds largest fashion fortune, and with nearly 21 billion each, they will become two of the worlds wealthiest men. With Maserati under there belt they believe they can expand the benetton horizon through automobiles and high end design.

In any case, the Maserati 8CM would indeed be nice to include:

 

[VT]

We've already got the early VW Beetle (built to Hitler's specifications) and Auto-Union Streamliner in GT4 so why not?

Thats exactly what I was going to say after reading Amar's post.

Why would people get pissed off at PD for putting pre-WWII BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, and VW (I know I forgot a few probably) race cars into the next GT because some were finanaced by Nazi Germany? If thats the case then why don't they sue the manufactureres for putting their respective company's insignia on their modern vehicles? They're still the same manufacturers, so SURELY they still have the same ideals?

I would absolutely love to have these cars in the game. They would be a blast to attempt to drive and they're downright beautiful! It brings back memories of some PC game I had seven or eight years ago where you could race those. I loved that game, eventhough I was limited to one track and three cars because it was a demo .

 

[Mr P510]

Absolutley! These old classics would be beautiful in every way on the PS3.It would also add an extra element to the types of cars as well. Oh god I hope someone at PD is listening.

 

[RedWolfRacer]

I think we're all hoping that someone at PD is listening. There are a whole slew (sp?) of great ideas here in these forums, and, no doubt, at other forums, as well.

That said, I think that they are busy enough reprogramming for the new hardware and engines that they will be using. I know that they will have something brilliant to offer us come GT5's release but at the same time, I'm not keeping my hopes up. I don't think that they have the time to read through forums AND reprogram their franchise for new hardware based on our desires. I think--of course this is my personal opinion, all of this--that they will come out with a great product. But as KY himself said, the even numbered games are the hardest: with the odd numbered games you have merely to utilize the new hardware whereas with the even numbered games you have to build off of the old or otherwise come out with a bigger and better product. I'm saying that GT5 will be sweet, but it will also be lacking some of the things that will make GT6 even better. Whether or not this will be intentional is beyond my reckoning.

 

[amar212]

As I reffered to history element of pre-WWII-cars I didn't want to make any prejudical statement about those cars.

I myself find that era of racing truly the most important in the whole automotive history - those were the "romantic" times of racing when the all the technical foundations to what we today are calling "Racing" has been laid.

The F1 foundations, touring, drag, speed-records, turbo-boosting, racing suspension, lighweight, racing ovals, tyre management, track-heating, even the telemetry - all of those were made by the Germans in pre-WWII-era and Germany should be congratulated for that.

While in England - nodoubtfully the motherland of car racing - in those times racing was made in almost normal cars, Germany was heavy into making the cars a real racing monsters, together with heavy technical work on making the racing - racing. Modern racing would be totally different if there was no Germany as it was in those times.

I would have no problem with inclusion of those cars, and the only intention of my post was to put some light on possible problems that might occur. And from pretty bizzare story about Ford I can see that some things are still alive, we like it or not.

However, I have a strong belief that no such thing will ever influence GT series and that all of us who really admires those era in automotive history will get this ultimate chance to feel how it was to be a drvier when racing was first bravery and then technique.

All of those cars and tracks would be more then welcomed in my room.

EDITED: As they will be welcomed in Toca Race Driver 3 (out in early 2006 for PS2), which can be seen from this screenshot. So, I guess this pretty much ends this discussion. If it is no prbolem for Brits, it should be even less problem to Japanese then

 

[Zardoz]

Since we're imagining the possibilities, might as well add another dream car. This is the Alfa Romeo Type 12C-37 from 1937. It was fast, but it couldn't quite match the 600-HP Mercedes and Auto Union beasts:

Four were built, one survives, in perfect condition, as you can see:

 

[Apollo]

You have to remember that putting the Auto Union in GT4 was a chance they took to see how well it would go over, the same with the motor carriages. I think now that they've seen the reviews from putting the classics into the game they can approach the manufactures easier. The possibilities are never endless, they just have to push the limits. All the manufactures know that the sport and concept cars will grab attention, but they're learning the the technical generation will get into the history as well now.

Just think of having the Goodwood Festival in the game, it would go to a whole new market.

 

[Mr P510]

Good point! Makes me wonder what other new ideas PD is cooking up to see 'how well it will go over with the public'. Skys the limit I guess.

 

[Gabkicks]

Call me dumb, but I'd find it to be spitting on the gravestones to drift these.

what do you mean? most old cars got very sideways when racing.

the more cars the better. But i think they should include at least 20 cars in the same class instead of 2 can am cars. or 2 first generation formula cars.

 

[szwadiak]

As for old tracks, how about Avus? It would make an interesting alternative to the Test Course. Again, this may be considered to have Nazi links? However, I have encountered this track in another game (Spirit of Speed 1937), so I think it would be okay.

 

[Zardoz]

Avus was insane, wasn't it? 45-degree brick banking with no guard rail!

I looked up Spirit of Speed 1937. The reviews were downright nasty. Here's one of them:

http://dreamcast.ign.com/articles/164/164868p1.html

Apparently nobody had a problem with the German cars appearing in that game, so we're probably wrong to think PD might be reluctant to put them in GT5:

C'mon PD, if they can do it, certainly you can!

 

[szwadiak]

Yeah, the handling physics in that game were very bad.