Scaff, just wanted to say I gained a ton of respect for you from this thread and how you handled yourself. Thanks.
Nice to hear that the results from Forza 2 seem to corroborate GT5
's results, and I can understand why you would have expected the difference to be greater. It could I suppose be considered one of the automotive 'urban myths' of which quite a few exist and a lot of them do seem to revolve around braking.
Urban myth is a great way to put it. I learned a lot about lockups. A technique I've avoided like the plague. And probably still will, but it's good to know it does stop you quickly.
I would certainly hope so, as JackB has pointed out locked brakes now exist in the GT world, so so realistic penalties for them would be a great inclusion.
Given that we are getting damage, then blown tyres would be a great addition (come on PD if they could do it in TRD3 then so can you).
That would be a fantastic addition. I'd love to see flat spots and their effects on handling/bumpy ride taken into account. The subsequent blown tire risk would be a great teacher for the new drivers to keep brute force braking from owning some top times on the scoreboards etc. It would seem to be a very easy calculation and wouldn't require the kind of graphical damage work, that PD is concerned with... Hope it makes it into GT 5.
Actually, he isn't. He's engaging in a quite interesting intellectual discussion with JackB. Both Scaff and JackB have gotten over their initial encounter and are now actually trading notes, like good debaters should, while a lot of noobs keep coming in, calling him arrogant. Thank your lucky stars that Scaff is a decent soul and is not taking offense, but if I were in his place, I'd be getting a little miffed. He and JackB are already off the issue. I suggest you guys do the same. Scaff may come across as quite heavy when discussing techical matters like this, but that's because he knows his stuff.
Agreed. Scaff handled himself well.
Threshold versus Lock-up braking does make a difference in real-life, but the amount of difference depends (as Scaff has said) on tire compounds, driver skill, absolute grip and even brake bias. I remember from ten years ago or so, there was a test in a major magazine comparing lock-up to threshold braking to ABS, and the magazine found that on their chosen tire compound and car, they couldn't get shorter distances out of threshold, at all... in fact, in their test (this was old school ABS, mind)... lock-up was fastest in all conditions except on the wet track, where ABS ruled.
Those results were the ones we were looking for, but they're very hard to find. Interesting stuff. I can believe it after my informal tests.
But this doesn't apply to all situations. Personally, I've seen ABS systems that provide worse stopping distances than lock-up and ABS systems that are much faster. As for how this relates to threshold braking... well... it's a feel thing, isn't it? And unless Logitech gives us a brake pedal that hardens, softens, pulses, etcetera, there's not much guarantee that we're doing threshold braking right... right?
You nailed it. Over the years, I've done all kinds of things to the brake pedals to make threshold braking easier. I've put spongy type materials under the pedal to give it a different resistance at a certain point in the pedal travel. I've even used two different materials to give it 3 different feels for the full travel. I've tried a bunch of different springs behind the pedals. Currently, I've settled on bungie cords of different strengths attached to the Microsoft pedals and to the center bar of the Playseat. It's better, no where near perfect....
Unfortunately, none of that really works like the feel of real brakes. What's required is a brake pedal with a motor, that applies different levels of force and vibration. The game manufacturer (PD, Turn 10 etc.) have to actually deliiver the data and Logitech etc, have to have the motor to deliver the effects to the pedal. I'd pay another $60-100 to get those pedals. Here's to hoping.
One last thing on that subject. When I was doing my tests yesterday in Forza 2, I remembered some differences in the G25 vs Microsoft wheel. Forza 2 gives feedback on traction to the wheel. As your tire gets closer to breaking free the wheel vibrates slightly. It gives you one more piece of feedback needed for driving on the edge and theshold braking.
The G25 doesn't have this traction vibration, so it's making my driving on the edge much harder.
Both the G25 and the Microsoft Wheel give stronger feedback in wheel resistance for increasing/decreasing traction, which is helpful, but it's difficult to know when you'll break free without the vibration. I prefer the G25 for this wheel tension, because it's almost twice as strong and on that aspect if feels better, I just wish it had the vibration as well. It does have much better/stronger feel with the pedals. That's why I needed the bungie cords and spongy materials with the Microsoft wheel. I needed a stronger feel to the pedals.
Both wheels could use the vibration in the brake pedal and even better the motors in the brake pedal. That's nirvana. Hope it happens.
The other thing I love about the G25 is the 900 degrees of motion and the wheel spinning in my hands after a spin. The Microsoft Wheel centers itself as well, but it's not as satisfying with only 270 degrees of motion and the weaker resistance of the wheel.
The G25/PD could use Turn 10's vibration feedback to the wheel. The Microsoft wheel could use the G25's better feeling pedals, 900 degrees of motion and stonger motors. It's $125 vs $300, so you get what you pay for I suppose.
Until these brake pedals get better threshold braking in video games will be a pretty significant challenge in driving simulations. Like most things, we need some help, because we can't actually feel G forces sitting at home. Unless, you want to buy that $24,000 simulator I last year that works with LFS.
I think for the average driver, breaking a bit early and bleeding off speed a bit slower will make it easer to nail the perfect, entry, mid and exit speed on a corner and subsequently give a better racing line. They'll be more consistent as a result even. They'll lose a little by hitting the brake marker earlier than they could by slamming on the brakes, but they'll nail their speeds better and be more consistent.
I wish they'd add flat spots and blown tires though. That would eliminate the brute force breakers. Assuming PD would have the blown tire happen in 3 laps!
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