Throttle being cut when up-shifting

[Proud_God]

I find the following thing very irritating: when you up-shift, your throttle is being cut (visiualized by the red bar in your throttle bar).
Now, under normal conditions, it is only a short time. But sometimes, it can last up to more than a second! To test this out: take a F430 with TC off, rev it up while standing still, start in first and as soon as it hits the redline, shift to second. Notice that your throttle will be cut untill your rev all the way down to 2000 rpm!

I am using a normal Driving Force. Is this somehow connected to which controller / wheel you use?

What are your experiences with this?

 

[H3rmaN]

Yup, just tried it with my G25 and it does it when using sequential/paddle shift AND the H-shifter when the clutch is turned off!

When I turn the clutch on and use the H-shifter is doesn't do this anymore, and I have full control over it.

It appears the game is coded not to engage the clutch until you get to 2000 RPM or less.

 

[Numer0bis]

yeah I noticed that too, gear shift is really slow with paddle shift or h-shift without the clutch, as soon as I enable the clutch I can shift must faster

 

[JamboGT]

Now, under normal conditions, it is only a short time. But sometimes, it can last up to more than a second! To test this out: take a F430 with TC off, rev it up while standing still, start in first and as soon as it hits the redline, shift to second. Notice that your throttle will be cut untill your rev all the way down to 2000 rpm!

While I agree with you that the throttle cut out lasts too long generally, this example is due to the wheelspin whilst in first gear and the revs in second matching the speed of the car.

Do the same and control the wheelspin in first gear, take it to the redline, then shift, it will be a much different story.

 

[homeforsummer]

Is the F430 one of the cars you can't adjust the gears on? If not then maybe some adjusting of 1st and 2nd gears would stop this.

 

[88c-v Racer]

the problem is if you are shifting while the wheels are spinning. if you shift while the wheels are spinning then the car acts the same as if you where to short shift at a very low RPM, say, 4000 rpm for the Ferrari. if you wait for the wheels to stop spinning then the rpms will drop a bit and there won't be a huge lag between gears.

 

[Gilly]

I think I notice this problem even when you let the wheelspin subside but are then on the limiter, change to say 3rd there is still a pause but try and lift to ease this problem or be smoother on the throttle which seems harder to modulate on a pad unlike say gt4 (maybe it's me?)

 

[Stotty]

It's a pretty realistic representation of real life...

Manual 'boxes: How often (if ever) do you perform a 'flat change' in real life? If you watch motorsport with manual gearboxes it's very rare you see a driver flat changing because it kills gearboxes/clutches/drive shafts.

Sequential 'boxes: All sequential boxes kill the throttle to some extent during the clutch disengaged part of the change for the same reasons as above.

The reason the gearchange from 1st to 2nd takes longer is because the rev drop off from 1st to 2nd is the biggest (biggest gap between gear ratios). Therefore it takes slightly longer for the engine speed to drop to a level where it's safe to re-engage the clutch.

 

[Scaff]

It's a pretty realistic representation of real life...

Manual 'boxes: How often (if ever) do you perform a 'falt change' in real life? If you watch motorsport with manual gearboxes it's very rare you see a driver flat changing beacuse it kills gearboxes/clutches/drive shafts.

Sequential 'boxes: All sequential boxes kill the throttle to some extent during the clutch disengaged part of the change for the same reasons as above.

The reason the gearchange from 1st to 2nd takes longer is because the rev drop off from 1st to 2nd is the biggest (biggest gap between gear ratios). Therefore it takes slightly longer for the engine speed to drop to a level where it's safe to re-engage the clutch.

While I would agree that it is very rare to flat-shift a road car (it is however often done when 'figuring' a car - manufacturers and magazines do it to get 0-60 times), to suggest that its not common in racing, particularly with sequential boxes is simply not true.

The majority of sequential racing boxes do flat-shift, and that runs cross the board from F1 down to the BTCC and many others like the Clio V6 cup, etc.


Regards

Scaff

 

[P1]

So is this the reason the G25 with the clutch is faster.

 

[Stotty]

While I would agree that it is very rare to flat-shift a road car (it is however often done when 'figuring' a car - manufacturers and magazines do it to get 0-60 times), to suggest that its not common in racing, particularly with sequential boxes is simply not true.

The majority of sequential racing boxes do flat-shift, and that runs cross the board from F1 down to the BTCC and many others like the Clio V6 cup, etc.


Regards

Scaff

I've driven a mix of road and racing cars with sequential gearboxes (Alfa 156 selespeed, Clio Touring car, Jonathan Palmer JP1) and I've been driven in others (including several touring cars, a Subaru WRC, Ferarri 430). I'm absolutely sure that in the road cars even if the driver keeps his foot flat during the shift, the ECU does reduce/kill power during the shift - just as it blips the throttle on downshifts to match road/engine speed.

Not sure if this applies for All racing cars... For F1, the flywheels are so light the rev drop off is pretty much instantaneous therefore it might not be necessary. The Clio and the JP1 were so noisy it was difficult to hear the revs drop during the change!

 

[H3rmaN]

So is this the reason the G25 with the clutch is faster.

Yes, in general its just quicker to shift using the G25 + clutch instead of using sequential or automatic.

 

[Scaff]

I've driven a mix of road and racing cars with sequential gearboxes (Alfa 156 selespeed, Clio Touring car, Jonathan Palmer JP1) and I've been driven in others (including several touring cars, a Subaru WRC, Ferarri 430). I'm absolutely sure that in the road cars even if the driver keeps his foot flat during the shift, the ECU does reduce/kill power during the shift - just as it blips the throttle on downshifts to match road/engine speed.

Not sure if this applies for All racing cars... For F1, the flywheels are so light the rev drop off is pretty much instantaneous therefore it might not be necessary. The Clio and the JP1 were so noisy it was difficult to hear the revs drop during the change!

Don't get me wrong the road cars will most certainly drop the power even if the driver keeps his toe in, making flat shift pretty much a 'manual' only thing for road cars.

However with race specific cars it does vary, to a degree based on the nature of the series. Endurance racing obviously has a requirement to keep the components going for a long distance/time, and these will again require a let off of power during an upshift. Sprint racing and series with no penalties for gearbox changes or budgets that go through the roof will allow flat up-shifts. After all if you get no penalty for changing something and cost of materials is no issue then why not maximise every single rev. I believe it was Colin Chapman who said that an idea race car is one that will give everything it has and then 'expire' the second it passes the finish line.

All I'm saying is that blanket statements about cars never being flat-shifted are not always correct, particularly when applied to racing.


Regards

Scaff

 

[gitSehT]

The ECU would not drop the revs that much during a shift. I have an Audi A3 with DSG (now known as S Tronic) and it rarely drops below 4500rpm during hard acceleration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81ciFyfBaxs

This vid shows a chipped A3 but the transmission reacts the same (rpm drops to 5200rpm under hard acceleration).

 

[santiagomo87]

Throttle cut doesn't have to do with revs dropping. The revs drop depending on the gearbox ratio. The A3 will drop to 5200 because that's how it is geared. However, in the case with DSG, throttle cut is very very little or none. Of course if you make a gearchange while the wheels are still spinning, the revs will drop dramatically, throttle cut or not.

I can't make my point as clear as I'd want because of my bad english. Anyways I love the way cars shift in this game, it's as smooth as i try to make it in real life. However i do think that the ferreri, being the one with sequential gearbox, should shift a bit quicker in real life (from what i've read in magazines).

 

[phil_2001]

The clutch cuts the throttle when you shift in manual, just like in real life. Have you ever driven a car with a manual gearbox? Well, I have and I had to learn the driving properly. Whenever you press the clutch you have no real throttle, only empty rpm, primitively so speaking.
I'm guessing the sequential gearbox has an automatic clutch so that it shifts gently and without harm to the car.

 

[Threshold]

If 1st gear tops out 40 MPH and you shift to 2nd while 1st is bouncing off the limiter and the car is moving at 15 MPH, of course the revs are gonna drop way down. The tires are spinning at 40 MPH but the car isn't. You need to let the car synchronize with the speed of the tires, and then upshift.

 

[Proud_God]

You're missing the point Threshold. The issue is not that the RPMs drop due to gear ratio differences - that is completely nomal and unavoidable. The issue is that you cannot apply the throttle for a painfully long time (more than one second).

 

[vipersan]

Yes ... droping the clutch to initiate wheelspin and burn some rubber is just not possible without a G25 wheel. Sadly ...

And the most annoying thing is, that (for example) the famous GT-R shifts like a duracell bunny on drugs. And apparently no other car can do that.

 

[Cold Fussion]

It's a pretty realistic representation of real life...

Manual 'boxes: How often (if ever) do you perform a 'flat change' in real life? If you watch motorsport with manual gearboxes it's very rare you see a driver flat changing because it kills gearboxes/clutches/drive shafts.

Sequential 'boxes: All sequential boxes kill the throttle to some extent during the clutch disengaged part of the change for the same reasons as above.

The reason the gearchange from 1st to 2nd takes longer is because the rev drop off from 1st to 2nd is the biggest (biggest gap between gear ratios). Therefore it takes slightly longer for the engine speed to drop to a level where it's safe to re-engage the clutch.

The paddle shifters on the Ferrari's shift gears in 60 milliseconds in real life, they don't do it ingame. Same with the dsg in golf's, doesn't shift in 60 milliseconds ingame. Arguing the half a second delay ingame is realistic is preposterous.

 

[AlternateID]

Does the Golf in GT have DSG? I never bothered checking.

 

[Threshold]

You're missing the point Threshold. The issue is not that the RPMs drop due to gear ratio differences - that is completely nomal and unavoidable. The issue is that you cannot apply the throttle for a painfully long time (more than one second).

The OP is launching on full throttle and upshifting as soon as the needle hits the red, I think there is some wheel spin there, nothing else can account for the RPMs dropping to 2K. My advice to avoid long upshifts is to avoid 1st and 2nd gear as much as possible. In the 600PP online race, with the S1 tires, it's very doable.

The paddle shifters on the Ferrari's shift gears in 60 milliseconds in real life, they don't do it ingame. Same with the dsg in golf's, doesn't shift in 60 milliseconds ingame. Arguing the half a second delay ingame is realistic is preposterous.

Those cars come with traditional manual transmissions as standard equipment, and that's what we get in the game (F430 having paddles in cockpit view is an error). Also the shifting delays in the game are very realistic. That's how you drive a car when you want the clutch to last you more than 10K miles.

 

[H3rmaN]

The paddle shifters on the Ferrari's shift gears in 60 milliseconds in real life, they don't do it ingame.

Its actually 150ms....

Changing gear takes just 150 milliseconds, as measured by the ‘hole’ in acceleration during the change (intended as the overall time from declutching, changing gear to releasing the clutch).

Source

 

[BoyRacer555]

i dont understand.

 

[vipersan]

The paddle shifters on the Ferrari's shift gears in 60 milliseconds in real life, they don't do it ingame.

Its actually 150ms....

Changing gear takes just 150 milliseconds, as measured by the ‘hole’ in acceleration during the change (intended as the overall time from declutching, changing gear to releasing the clutch).

Shifting a gear is 60ms (changing from one gear to another inside transmission), but changing a gear takes 150ms, because it includes engaging the clutch, shifting to another gear and releasing the clutch. So I guess you're both right 👍. That's how I think it is.

 

[Driver46]

Those cars come with traditional manual transmissions as standard equipment, and that's what we get in the game (F430 having paddles in cockpit view is an error). Also the shifting delays in the game are very realistic. That's how you drive a car when you want the clutch to last you more than 10K miles.

Finally.
that should have been the first reply.
GT games always simulated the time it takes to shift with a manual transmission. Little errors like the F430 using stick shift but showing paddle shifting during cockpit few are plenty in GT5P. Another example for that would be the EvoX "GSR" which is actually the MR cause here it is the other way around. That car should have a 5 speed stick shift but it has a 6 speed dual clutch gearbox in the game and as such shifts very fast (and I love it).
It also has the MR gear ratios and body style...it's the MR and PD just named it GSR by accident I guess. All these flaws should be fixed until the full game arrives.

 

[Jedi2016]

I agree that it sounds like wheelspin. Yes, you're at the redline, but you're not actually going redline speed, you're going a lot slower than that. That's why it takes so long for second to pick up.

Simple test... do a slow rolling start in first, and gradually take the speed up until you're redlining in first and the car simply isn't accelerating anymore. Then shift to second. I think you'll find the shifting is a lot faster and the RPMs don't drop near as far.

 

[Jay]

The reason the F430 shift time takes so long during that shifting period is the way GT autoshifts (cutting throttle even when using manual, excluding G25), it always rev matches before going into the next gear, so if you are wheelspining in first in the F430 but the car is hardly moving when you shift to second the game holds off until the revs match the car speed before engaging the next gear and giving you control back again of the throttle.

If it didn't you will find you will peel out in second gear also (fun) and many of the average or below skilled GT drivers will lose control often.

With the G25 with clutch enabled you can shift as fast as you want in any circumstance, but not in cars like the F430, GTR etc.

 

[Proud_God]

Thanks for confirming that viper. The feature still sucks imo, as it is not consistent: you can do a standing start from second and then you WILL get wheelspin.

 

[Scaff]

Thanks for confirming that viper. The feature still sucks imo, as it is not consistent: you can do a standing start from second and then you WILL get wheelspin.

If you have an engine with enough torque and right gearing you can get wheel-spin in just about any gear. Always keep in mind that gearing multiplies torque and all you need is enough torque at the driven wheels to overcome grip and you will get wheel spin. As an example....

...I've seen this run on tarmac and spin the wheels in every gear. Mind you 840bhp / 700 ft/lbs torque and gearing for Pikes Peak will do that for you.

Wheelspin will reduce as you move through the gears, as the ratios change and you get a lower multiplier from the gearing, but with enough torque its still possible to spin the wheels in higher gears.


Regards

Scaff