To those still frustrated at the Course Creator's delay...

[hardvibes]

edit, double post

 

[hardvibes]

I'm not frustrated, I never cared about course creator. I wish PD never wasted time with it and focused on multiplayer, customization and sounds.

I'm not sure the gauges update was entirely useless - in fact, I'm thinking they're subtly hinting at simulating the different engine temperatures as well, and not just tire temps.

I remember when I drove the Lotus 97T on Le Mans straight the temperature on the dash reached the maximum and it affected the acceleration or top speed (don't rememeber exactly, I need to check again)

 

[Lock2Lock]

I'm not sure the gauges update was entirely useless - in fact, I'm thinking they're subtly hinting at simulating the different engine temperatures as well, and not just tire temps.

Ok great. But why even bother putting it in now?
If it doesn't work in every car or at least the premium models what is the point at all. Just shows that the game is not even finished.

I mean look at it from my standpoint. I constantly stoof by for all of the crap in this game. The horrible FPS, the lag in the lobbies, the transmissions making me have to use the paddle shifters for the standard cars and some premiums (which by the way showed PD's pure lazyness all together). Then last I see something implemented in the game that is completely useless.
It just amazes me they would rather put in temp gauges knowing that it is pretty much useless than actually fixing the things that have been in need of fixing since GT5 and probably before then (aka the clutch model).

I remember when I drove the Lotus 97T on Le Mans straight the temperature on the dash reached the maximum and it affected the acceleration or top speed (don't rememeber exactly, I need to check again)

I will have to go try this right now then to see it for myself. I have sat with a few cars and that gauge did absolutely nothing. Not to mention pretty much all cars are automatically running at the perfect temp all of the time.

 

[SR20DE_s13]

Only reason i put this game on pre-order was because i heard about the course creator.

jibbed.

 

[Imari]

I was going to write a long diatribe on this topic, but I'll just put it like this:

PD are no doubt as frustrated with themselves and the circumstances surrounding the delay as you are. They need your support as this is no doubt a very difficult time for them. Hating on them for something they're hating on themselves for is not fair.

I'm sure they are.

The major difference being that they have my money and I don't. I rather think that however many millions of dollars they've made from sales goes some way to making them feel a little better. And if it doesn't, then at least they can spend it on coke and hookers and that certainly will make them feel a little better.

They're still human at the end of the day. They go there, work their fingers to the bone for us, try their damnedest to make the Course Creator work with technology from 2005 that wasn't meant for it, and then some of them come home and log on to GTPlanet to see all these scathing comments from people like myself who have no idea what it takes. Business or not, continuing to bash them for circumstances most likely beyond their control is just wrong.

If those circumstances aren't in their control, whose control are they under?

Polyphony chose to advertise those features as being added to the game in the future, Kaz went as far as to say that it was going to be a close call whether the Course Creator would make it into the release version. They made their own bed, and now they get to lie in it.

I'm not going to argue every point in that post and instead pose you this question: Would you like to be on the other side of this? No wonder PD doesn't announce delays here - instead of being greeted with understanding and thanks for giving us an update to the situation, they'd be greeted with hatred and acidity. Because, you know, we "love" them.

Again, making their own bed.

Speak for yourself about "love". I can understand that sometimes stuff just goes wrong and they can't get the features out like they wanted. What I can't understand is the complete lack of communication or support for the customer. If I'm in a restaurant and my meal is taking a long time to come, I'm willing to be patient if the waiter keeps me informed.

"We've had a small fire, one chef has gone to hospital and the others are trying to make do with the half of the kitchen that wasn't damaged."

OK, that sort of sucks that I'm going to have to wait but I can sympathise with people having a tough time and we can get through it together.

Polyphony doesn't work like this. We get to sit in the restaurant with the occasional "It'll be out soon, we promise we haven't forgotten you." It's not enough. I don't know whether there's been a death in the kitchen or whether it's just the owner being a tightwad and not hiring enough staff (which certainly seems like an accusation that could be fairly levelled at Polyphony).

At some point they have to realise that the delay is out of the ordinary, and so the communication needs to take a step beyond the ordinary as well. We're coming up on a year post-release now. I can understand that they maybe can't give dates, or won't for very good reasons. But at the least they need to explain in clear terms the obstacles that meant that they couldn't release the features that they promised, and what they're going to do to either make sure that the customer gets what they paid for or are compensated appropriately.

 

[fghwe3]

Didn't Kaz do an interview a while back saying that the course creator is ready? I am guessing the delay has something to do with iTunes approving the app. I know Apple spend alot of time vetting and checking any app before it hits the app store, and it takes ages before they approve it. So it might be an apple problem.

 

[snowgt]

They're still human at the end of the day. They go there, work their fingers to the bone for us, try their damnedest to make the Course Creator work with technology from 2005 that wasn't meant for it, and then some of them come home and log on to GTPlanet to see all these scathing comments from people like myself who have no idea what it takes. Business or not, continuing to bash them for circumstances most likely beyond their control is just wrong.

If the technology from 2005 wasn't meant for a course creator the way PD planned it, whose fault is that? In the end, it's PD's job to develop software that can run on the hardware they have at their disposal. To plan something that uses, say, 20% more resources than available only in the hope that through optimization in the development process they will in the end magically arrive at something that the hardware actually can support, is not really good practice, and it's no excuse for not being able to deliver promised features anywhere near in time. (I don't want to have a discussion what "in time" means, but 1 year after release is a little late in my book)

 

[Imari]

Didn't Kaz do an interview a while back saying that the course creator is ready? I am guessing the delay has something to do with iTunes approving the app. I know Apple spend alot of time vetting and checking any app before it hits the app store, and it takes ages before they approve it. So it might be an apple problem.

No, there is expected to be two parts to the course creator. Allow me to quote from the gran-turismo.com site:

This feature, available at a later stage through an update, will allow you to create your own custom tracks that can be driven in the game. Additionally, in another update we will add the possibility to generate a track by capturing the GPS coordinate data of a mobile app while you are driving that course. This GPS-generated tracks will be available in the game as playable content.

As you can see, there is expected to be one update which will add the ability to create your own custom tracks. Then there is expected to be a second update that will add the GPS import functionality.

It's possible that they're trying to push out the two of them at once, but that would seem slightly silly. If they're both ready bar approvals, they might as well give us the first part while they wait for approvals for the second.

 

[jontikis]

You're characterizing this like your best mate is all bent out of shape because he left the back gate open and the dog got out and hasn't been seen for a week. This is business not friendship, and PD is due any and all criticism based on the product they put out, how well it works, and how complete it is, how it stacks up to the competition and any number of other ways consumers routinely measure value. Saying nice things on an anonymous internet forum isn't going to help them make better decisions, allocate their resources more efficiently, plan any better or get the work done any quicker. An internet forum filled with justifiable discontent over real shortcomings with the product, might make them stand up and take notice.

In short, they got our support when we shelled out literally $100's of millions for GT5/6. If that isn't enough support for them, they should take up another profession.

@Johnnypenso
I won't disagree with you mate. But it wouldn't be good at all if we were getting a Course Maker, full of bugs, glitches, problems etc. This would make things worse. Also, if this GPS app works like they said it will work, can you imagine how much time, tests and checks needs to be fully finished ? (personally I can't). A few months ago, Kaz said that "the Course Maker II is in Beta testing" and "it's working on his hands". I believe we will get it with a Spec 2.0 update around late November or the first week of December, which includes the first anniversary of GT6. Until then, just hope for the best.

 

[Imari]

@Johnnypenso
I won't disagree with you mate. But it wouldn't be good at all if we were getting a Course Maker, full of bugs, glitches, problems etc. This would make things worse. Also, if this GPS app works like they said it will work, can you imagine how much time, tests and checks needs to be fully finished ? (personally I can't). A few months ago, Kaz said that "the Course Maker II is in Beta testing" and "it's working on his hands". I believe we will get it with a Spec 2.0 update around late November or the first week of December, which includes the first anniversary of GT6. Until then, just hope for the best.

Nobody's asking for them to rush out an unfinished product. Everybody wins if stuff is actually finished. Releasing unfinished products was how we got into this mess in the first place.

What we are asking for is a little communication, and some reassurance that whatever it is that has happened was an act of God and not just mismanagement. Or if it was mismanagement, then an admission of such and some reassurance that the matter has been dealt with and will not happen again.

Personally, I can't see any way that they can push out all the stuff that's due by the one year anniversary of GT6. We are almost certainly going to be still waiting for stuff after December, the only question is how much.

Actually, the other question is "what excuses are going to be made for Polyphony if 12 months have passed and the game still isn't complete?" Because I rather think that selling customers a product that needed more than 12 months more development without putting a big "EARLY ACCESS ONLY" warning label on it such as is common with Steam games is pretty dishonest.

If PS4 hadn't come out, would they have released when they did? Or would they have done the right thing and kept developing it? I can only assume that the game sold when it did because they knew that trying to sell GT6 on PS3 this Christmas would have made it a laughing stock.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Actually, the other question is "what excuses are going to be made for Polyphony if 12 months have passed and the game still isn't complete?" Because I rather think that selling customers a product that needed more than 12 months more development without putting a big "EARLY ACCESS ONLY" warning label on it such as is common with Steam games is pretty dishonest.

I always thought about this. Has a console game ever had such a label? Or maybe they should have sold the game in "beta" form.

Although this doesn't seem like something you would do for a game that's on disc.

 

[Imari]

I always thought about this. Has a console game ever had such a label? Or maybe they should have sold the game in "beta" form.

Although this doesn't seem like something you would do for a game that's on disc.

No, you're right. I've never seen a physical game do it, nor would I expect such a game to sell particularly well.

Then again, GT5P was pretty much that in all but name and it sold very well for what it was. It just turned out that there was such a big gap between GT5P and GT5 proper that they weren't really that similar, but the idea was OK.


I'd say it would have been more honest to sell GT6 as GT6P. Announce that GT6 is going to be on PS4, is in development and has a bunch of features that can't rightly be done on PS3. But all the content still works, and they can give us a game with early versions of their improved game modes, physics and online. Announce that there may be updates as the game ages because they want to keep people interested, but major work is going to go into GT7.

I'd have said from that they could have sold the same game that we have now, but everyone would be a lot happier because of the way it's presented. And that they're being honest that they can't do what they want on PS3 and need to focus on PS4, because at the moment all I read from PD is excuses after the fact.

 

[snowgt]

If PS4 hadn't come out, would they have released when they did? Or would they have done the right thing and kept developing it? I can only assume that the game sold when it did because they knew that trying to sell GT6 on PS3 this Christmas would have made it a laughing stock.

I think that about sums it up. In all likelihood some time in early 2013 Sony asked PD to create a second game for PS3 by Christmas at the latest, because the PS4-launch date had been set. That meant they had to release everything that was there at that time, and that was far from being complete. A realistic release date would have been summer or autumn 2014.

Judging from the state of completeness, generally it seems like the GT-games' release dates for the PS3 have been determined exclusively by marketing perspectives, rather than development. And while that may have been a strategy that made sense in terms of maximizing revenues in the short term, it may cost them eventually in terms of customer satisfaction (and future sales).

 

[NixxxoN]

Slowlyphony digital

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

Slowlyphony digital

Um, that's PD-bashing. I specifically said "no PD-bashing" in the OP.

 

[Imari]

I think that about sums it up. In all likelihood some time in early 2013 Sony asked PD to create a second game for PS3 by Christmas at the latest, because the PS4-launch date had been set. That meant they had to release everything that was there at that time, and that was far from being complete. A realistic release date would have been summer or autumn 2014.

Judging from the state of completeness, generally it seems like the GT-games' release dates for the PS3 have been determined exclusively by marketing perspectives, rather than development. And while that may have been a strategy that made sense in terms of maximizing revenues in the short term, it may cost them eventually in terms of customer satisfaction (and future sales).

I wonder if their contract doesn't say something like "2 full games per console generation". It would make a certain amount of sense from a historical perspective, Sony probably know that 2 games per is about the sweet spot. From there the decisions for GT6 are kind of sensible given how much time they lost to GT5.

 

[NixxxoN]

Um, that's PD-bashing. I specifically said "no PD-bashing" in the OP.

That's lamenting not bashing. I actually love PD's work but I think they're too slow thats all. They should hire more people and go faster.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

They're still human at the end of the day. They go there, work their fingers to the bone for us, try their damnedest to make the Course Creator work with technology from 2005 that wasn't meant for it, and then some of them come home and log on to GTPlanet to see all these scathing comments from people like myself who have no idea what it takes. Business or not, continuing to bash them for circumstances most likely beyond their control is just wrong.

There are a lot of assumptions in that paragraph. Citations needed.

If I say I'm going to do something at work, sell a product based off said promise, and never deliver, I would get in trouble for it. PD shouldn't get pity for the same thing; especially if they already have my money.

Blaming the PS3 isn't right either; PD knows - or at least, should know - the system better than nearly anybody else. If they can't get the Course Creator working on it as they originally envisioned, that's their fault for not setting a reasonable goal with the hardware they're on. Toyota doesn't claim the next Yaris is a 200mph, sub-4-to-60 supercar with the same 1.5L engine.

 

[CeeJay]

I used to be really excited for the course creator but now I've totally given up on it. Way too many awesome games to play right now instead of sitting around wondering when some promised feature of GT6 will ever get released. If Kaz & PD are moving on then so am I.

I actually have more of a morbid curiosity to see the final outcome of all of this, I want to see if PD pretends they never mentioned it and purges everything that mentions the course maker from their website or if they put out a "sorry we're not going to finish this part of the game" sort of thing. I really thought at some point they'd pull the advertising of the course maker feature from the online stores that sell GT6 but it's still mentioned on store sites. That really doesn't sit well with me.

 

[ironman44321]

People get too involved with this stuff. The course maker is my most wanted promised feature for GT6, but I'm going to go sit here and whine about it not being out yet.

I'm still pretty confident we'll get the course maker though, we've had a pretty steady stream of updates so far and I don't see any reason for that to stop now. The GPS course maker I'm less confident about, but I've had doubts about that feature since the day it was announced. I suspect we'll have to wait for GT7 for that one.

 

[Imari]

People get too involved with this stuff. The course maker is my most wanted promised feature for GT6, but I'm going to go sit here and whine about it not being out yet.

Gotta do something while I wait for the next iRacing session to go live.

The GPS course maker I'm less confident about, but I've had doubts about that feature since the day it was announced. I suspect we'll have to wait for GT7 for that one.

It always did seem a bit ambitious. But then if the GT6 course maker is truly free, like ModNation Racers sort of free, then I imagine that it probably wouldn't be too massive a task to parse a bunch of GPS points and string them into a ribbon of track. Bob's Track Builder can do it, I believe.

I'm sure it's more difficult than it sounds, but I can't see it being limited by hardware or anything. If the course maker is sufficiently flexible, it shouldn't be that big a leap. Probably making the app for it is the hard part.

 

[ironman44321]

Gotta do something while I wait for the next iRacing session to go live.


It always did seem a bit ambitious. But then if the GT6 course maker is truly free, like ModNation Racers sort of free, then I imagine that it probably wouldn't be too massive a task to parse a bunch of GPS points and string them into a ribbon of track. Bob's Track Builder can do it, I believe.

I'm sure it's more difficult than it sounds, but I can't see it being limited by hardware or anything. If the course maker is sufficiently flexible, it shouldn't be that big a leap. Probably making the app for it is the hard part.

My biggest concern as far as the GPS function was always a matter of being able to get enough data for it to be worth it. The app would have to take a point at least a couple times a second for you to be able to get anything even sort of resembling the road you were trying to recreate. Especially if it's a road with a higher speed limit.

 

[Zlork]

People get too involved with this stuff. The course maker is my most wanted promised feature for GT6, but I'm going to go sit here and whine about it not being out yet.

I'm still pretty confident we'll get the course maker though, we've had a pretty steady stream of updates so far and I don't see any reason for that to stop now. The GPS course maker I'm less confident about, but I've had doubts about that feature since the day it was announced. I suspect we'll have to wait for GT7 for that one.

Idem

 

[sirjim73]

My biggest concern as far as the GPS function was always a matter of being able to get enough data for it to be worth it. The app would have to take a point at least a couple times a second for you to be able to get anything even sort of resembling the road you were trying to recreate. Especially if it's a road with a higher speed limit.

Honest question... Does it need to be that precise...? If I drive from a to b my satnav shows all the curves and bends on the way. All it needs to know is where I turn left or right and it knows what road I'm on for the next part.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'll just put this here.

If you take a very close look at the new Sierra track, you will notice it's surprising resemblance to a course maker track from GT5. I am confident in saying it is a course maker track. It is likely a track they put together for testing and then decided it was good enough to be additional content (I can't argue. I think it's pretty good, plus I like the rally mode).

Just go compare. You'll see for yourselves.

Course maker needs to come with the ability to share it with others or it becomes less useful. So, I would speculate that community features are the hold up. I can see it being a Christmas release.

 

[HuskyGT]

It was never announced; just overly-hyped. I was very excited for it, but it's too late now. Even if PD finally releases it, I doubt that will make me go back.

One can be very patient, but that is something that won't last forever. Some of us, after many years have decided to move on. It's not like PD will lose anything by having some of their day-one fans go to other franchises. They'll be alright.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

I cant see this GPS thing being that accurate tbh, it might pick up you left & right turns but I doubt it will pick up all the the dips, bumps, ups & downs, blind corners that make your particular favourite piece of road so fun to drive in real life.

 

[HuskyGT]

I'll just put this here.

If you take a very close look at the new Sierra track, you will notice it's surprising resemblance to a course maker track from GT5. I am confident in saying it is a course maker track. It is likely a track they put together for testing and then decided it was good enough to be additional content (I can't argue. I think it's pretty good, plus I like the rally mode).

Just go compare. You'll see for yourselves.

Course maker needs to come with the ability to share it with others or it becomes less useful. So, I would speculate that community features are the hold up. I can see it being a Christmas release.

I noticed that. Unfortunately, despite sierra is a very beautiful looking track, it has the same feel than custom tracks in GT5. And at least for me, that means it feels incredibly bland. I think I did a lap in sierra three times and that was enough for me.

 

[Imari]

My biggest concern as far as the GPS function was always a matter of being able to get enough data for it to be worth it. The app would have to take a point at least a couple times a second for you to be able to get anything even sort of resembling the road you were trying to recreate. Especially if it's a road with a higher speed limit.

Hmm, good point. Straights is fine, but corners I'd imagine would want a fairly high point density.

That could be tough, and I guess to make it look nice you'd need some sort of smoothing algorithm so that the road didn't look like an angular PS1 construct.

I wonder how often a normal GPS can take points? Really it's just two numbers needed for lat and long (and height if they want to be anal about it I suppose), so as quick as the GPS can calculate numbers they can just dump them into a text file. It could be hundreds of points a second for all I know.

It was never announced; just overly-hyped.

Are you still talking about the Course Maker? It's on the gran-turismo.com. website, and has been spoken about by Kazunori several times. It has most definitely been announced.

I cant see this GPS thing being that accurate tbh, it might pick up you left & right turns but I doubt it will pick up all the the dips, bumps, ups & downs, blind corners that make your particular favourite piece of road so fun to drive in real life.

One could hope that if the course maker is powerful enough to accept a generic track from a GPS trail, then you should have enough control to tweak it after the fact and add those things in. Then again, that's logical and I'm slightly wary of applying logic to the design of GT features.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

It was never announced; just overly-hyped. I was very excited for it, but it's too late now. Even if PD finally releases it, I doubt that will make me go back.

One can be very patient, but that is something that won't last forever. Some of us, after many years have decided to move on. It's not like PD will lose anything by having some of their day-one fans go to other franchises. They'll be alright.

You go play your Forzas and Assetto Corsas, then. I'll be here waiting on the next generation of GT players... and the next, and the next, and the next, until either the series ends or I die.