Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[Prince.M5]

It's not a very good circuit. It's popular with Formula 1 teams for testing because the climate in Spain is fairly stable year-round, and also because the circuit has a variety of corner types whilst remaining fairly moderate in terms of downforce and setup requirements.

Yeah, seems like this track favours motorcycle racing more. Already proven in the recent WTCC and AutoGP races that this circuit couldn't really provide a decent racing entertainment. However, I'd like to see how the Moto2 race fare on that circuit (yeah I missed last year's).

 

[homeforsummer]

Yeah, seems like this track favours motorcycle racing more. Already proven in the recent WTCC and AutoGP races that this circuit couldn't really provide a decent racing entertainment. However, I'd like to see how the Moto2 race fare on that circuit (yeah I missed last year's).

I'd say with the WTCC the emphasis should be on "recent" for Valencia. I remember watching it four or five years back when the series was mainly Alfa Romeos and BMWs and there was some fantastic racing there. I think the main trouble is that the current WTCC is a bit tedious anyway. The series has gone a bit stale.

It does lend itself better to bike racing though, I agree.

 

[Prince.M5]

I think the main trouble is that the current WTCC is a bit tedious anyway. The series has gone a bit stale.

This one I very agree. I think the reason is because we lack the participation of car manufacturers unlike in BTCC. Chevrolet seem to have been dominating not just because of the Cruze itself but because the team itself is a very high budget one and definitely spent a lot to make the car superior to even the 320TC.

The race distance is very questionable because two 20 minutes race a weekend isn't enough - perhaps they should do something like BTCC. It's much more enjoyable I believe.

It has already shown some improvements to the series earlier this year but now it's going off the cliff.

 

[homeforsummer]

It definitely needs some rejuvenation. BTCC went through some dark days in the early 00s but by 04-05 it was getting some of its spirit back with more manufacturers and right now I honestly think it's up there with the Supertouring days of the mid 90s in terms of excitement.

WTCC needs that. It needs to be cheaper to compete in, it needs more manufacturers and I reckon they need a bit more spice in the circuit selection. A good 50% of the current WTCC circuits are utterly characterless and most are too quick for close racing too - what the hell were they thinking swapping Vallelunga for Monza, for example, which is far too open for close racing, and why Suzuka East which has no overtaking opportunities to speak of, when somewhere like Okayama would be much more suited to touring cars?

And don't get me started on Curitiba or Oschersleben, both of which are utterly dull to watch racing on.

The only two stand-out circuits the series currently uses are Donington Park and Macau. Why they don't visit Zandvoort is beyond me, and if it were my choice I'd have them visit a few more street circuits which always throw up excitement, and throw in a North American race and maybe one at Abu Dhabi too, which is much better with tin-tops than it is for F1.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It definitely needs some rejuvenation.

...

and throw in a North American race and maybe one at Abu Dhabi too, which is much better with tin-tops than it is for F1.

2012 WTCC calender currentley indicates they will race at Infineon, which should be interesting, but the rest of the calender isn't great... I always quite liked Brno too, but thats gone.

March 11 - Monza, Italy
April 1 - Valencia, Spain
April 15 - Donington Park, UK
April 29 - TBC, Germany
May 6 - Hungaroring, Hungary
May 20 - Marrakech, Morocco
June 10 - Porto, Portugal
July 22 - Curitiba, Brazil
September 23 - Sears Point, USA
October 21 - Suzuka, Japan
November 4 - Shanghai, China
November 18 - Macau, China


Valencia, Donington, Marrakech, Suzuka and Shanghai... really not the best selection IMO.

 

[Prince.M5]

... Donington...

Wait, thought that one provides a lot of entertainment? Actually it did in this year's edition. Expecting it to be a lot better in 2012.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Wait, thought that one provides a lot of entertainment? Actually it did in this year's edition. Expecting it to be a lot better in 2012.

To be fair, it's not terrible, but I went to the WTCC and Italian V8 Superstars this year at Donington, and they seemed a little processional, obviously the TV perspective could have been different.

 

[homeforsummer]

Donington provides great racing in the BTCC (always has done) so if it's not in the WTCC then it's clearly the series itself that's at fault - perhaps it just doesn't have the right mix of drivers. At least as a circuit Donington is interesting to watch and spectate at, which is more than can be said for several others.

I'm not keen on Brno as a WTCC circuit - again, it's far to open and despite the longish straight into tight corner format, it doesn't seem to encourage great racing. It's much better in bikes where they can go side-by-side in the corners. It's a bit more processional in WTCC.

Infineon could be good for a laugh though. At the very least there should be some Knockhill-style kerb jumping.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

April 29 - TBC, Germany

Race of Germany was confirmed to be in Austria a few weeks ago http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=6773

Donnington is a great track, touring cars are always great there and this years race has easily been the best of the season as far as I'm concerned, the action was better than at Brands Hatch in recent years and its probably the best track in the country (Silverstone has all the money but that doesn't stop the track from being one of the worst in F1).

Edit: I hope they use the stockcar layout at Infineon, seems like it would suit WTCC more than the layout IndyCar use.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Donnington is a great track, touring cars are always great there and this years race has easily been the best of the season as far as I'm concerned

Like I said, its not terrible, buts its not great. As far as UK circuits go, it wouldn't be my pick, its a bike track, and thats about as good as it gets for Donington.

 

[Ardius]

I agree with the majority that feel Touring Cars go just fine at Donington, isn't the BTCC a blindingly obvious example of this? Very rarely has the BTCC rounds at Donington in any year been dull or boring!

More often than not, Brands Hatch and Silverstone have been the dullest races as far as Touring Cars go, though sometimes Silverstone can pull a decent race out of the bag. Brands usually requires a little bit of rain as usually its too difficult to pass and the nature of the circuit with its hills and high speed spreads the field quite a bit.

I'd say take the WTCC to Oulton Park . Or being a little less biased, it would be interesting to throw in Thruxton or even Knockhill. Perhaps there should be a Scottish round so we can throw in both! But then again, I like to think of Knockhill as the BTCC's "Monaco" - a crazy circuit thats iconic for the series, but the more people that get to see Touring Cars taking crazy amounts of curb and airtime the better!

I think generally the WTCC would do well to learn from Alan Gow's philosophy with BTCC - stick to smaller circuits and try to maximise the amount of racing the spectators get to see as well as not simply leaving the series just to its racing but also work on its "entertainment". Stuff like 3 races, only 10/15 laps, random reverse grid 3rd race, etc. Its a formula that works and really makes the series stand out a good deal more from F1 and sportscars which are always 1 hour or more race distances.

Not to mention that the support race package for the BTCC is just as high quality (although the driving standards might not be). Going to a BTCC event really feels like excellent value for money when you get so much racing in 1 day! (or even the whole weekend). Not to mention the great paddock access though this varies from circuit to circuit.

 

[homeforsummer]

I agree with the majority that feel Touring Cars go just fine at Donington, isn't the BTCC a blindingly obvious example of this? Very rarely has the BTCC rounds at Donington in any year been dull or boring!

*Thinks back to 98 in the wet... ahhhh*

More often than not, Brands Hatch and Silverstone have been the dullest races as far as Touring Cars go, though sometimes Silverstone can pull a decent race out of the bag. Brands usually requires a little bit of rain as usually its too difficult to pass and the nature of the circuit with its hills and high speed spreads the field quite a bit.

Silverstone was best in the BTCC around the late 90s when they used what I think was called the International Circuit (if the full track was the GP circuit and the short one that cuts from Magotts to Brooklands is the National circuit) - basically the one anyone who played TOCA Touring Cars/2 will be familiar with. I always remember great racing at that circuit.

Brands is generally pretty close on the Indy circuit and I preferred the GP circuit when there was a proper chicane at Dingle Dell that the cars used to physically leap over:

Might not have been any better for overtaking but it was exciting to watch.

I'd say take the WTCC to Oulton Park . Or being a little less biased, it would be interesting to throw in Thruxton or even Knockhill. Perhaps there should be a Scottish round so we can throw in both! But then again, I like to think of Knockhill as the BTCC's "Monaco" - a crazy circuit thats iconic for the series, but the more people that get to see Touring Cars taking crazy amounts of curb and airtime the better!

Funnily enough I was thinking of mentioning Oulton yesterday. With the full Island Loop used by the bikes, or even the current BTCC layout, it's great for touring cars. Even the short circuit was pretty good.

Thruxton might be suitable for the WTCC. There are good overtaking opportunities and since most of it is flat out the cars should run close.

Knockhill is one of my favourites but from an international perspective it might not have the commercial clout required.

(Silverstone has all the money but that doesn't stop the track from being one of the worst in F1).

Disagree completely. Silverstone invariably has some of the best racing in an F1 season, and did so even before stuff like KERS and DRS was introduced. It's a place where skilful drivers can really cut through the field.

It's a quick circuit too, which is why it's far better for F1 than it is for touring cars.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'd agree with Oulton and Knockhill and maybe chuck in Snetterton, but in terms of how prepared a circuit might be to host an international series, I think Rockingham would have to be a strong contender.

Tracks aside, the WTCC needs a stronger field of teams as well... 'the Chevrolet show' is a little tedious, it would be nice to have BMW back with a proper works outfit, and at least one other, maybe Honda or VW?

 

[homeforsummer]

It's as simple as being a cost thing and the BTCC is proving that. Introduce regs to bring down the cost, and teams will flock in.

 

[Prince.M5]

Tracks aside, the WTCC needs a stronger field of teams as well... 'the Chevrolet show' is a little tedious, it would be nice to have BMW back with a proper works outfit, and at least one other, maybe Honda or VW?

'The Chevrolet Show' is definitely making WTCC feels silly to watch in my opinion. I'm expressing my feeling of dissapointment here. As I said somewhere up in this thread, the RML Chevrolet is a team with a bloody high budget and sometimes it feels like a bit unfair to the rest of the field. Not saying that they're cheating but just unfair...

But one of the reason of their success also, is because its their drivers who develop the car and not the manufacturer. All three of them Alain, Yvan and Rob gave a lot of mileage in their cars just to better the turbo, chassis and everything making them a race winning team. The car is no different to one used by Bamboo Engineering since they've signed an agreement to use the same car as the RML from earlier this year but they couldn't really show something like the RML boys do.

Now this contradict to what BMW is doing this year with the 320TC. Augusto and Andy put in a lot of test in the 320TC and sell it to the customers. That is the different and when I think of it again, why not if BMW actually just compete in this year's championship with their improved 320TC? They had the chance to let the RML down.

You know what I'm thinking last night? BMW could perhaps reconsider getting back into the fame of Touring Cars once the brand new F30 TC is ready to be prepared.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Disagree completely. Silverstone invariably has some of the best racing in an F1 season, and did so even before stuff like KERS and DRS was introduced. It's a place where skilful drivers can really cut through the field.

It's a quick circuit too, which is why it's far better for F1 than it is for touring cars.

It used to be good until they butchered it, faster tracks give more action in F1 because of the lower downforce.

 

[MatskiMonk]

You know what I'm thinking last night? BMW could perhaps reconsider getting back into the fame of Touring Cars once the brand new F30 TC is ready to be prepared.

The E90 320TC isn't really an improved version of the 320Si... the 320TC kit was more of a sticking plaster for the 320Si to keep it within the regs, rather than just abandoning all the BMW Motorsport customers that had Si's. To be honest I think the 3 series is getting a little too big, I prefer Saloons to hatches any day of the week, but maybe it's time for the 1 series to start earning some more motorsport stipes.

 

[homeforsummer]

The E90 320TC isn't really an improved version of the 320Si... the 320TC kit was more of a sticking plaster for the 320Si to keep it within the regs, rather than just abandoning all the BMW Motorsport customers that had Si's. To be honest I think the 3 series is getting a little too big, I prefer Saloons to hatches any day of the week, but maybe it's time for the 1 series to start earning some more motorsport stipes.

Or they do what they've done in the BTCC with the NGTC regs which is raise the minimum length to encourage saloons back again. Note the Avensis and A4 - I can't believe it'll be too long before we see a competitive 3-Series again, whether factory developed or otherwise.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Insignia

muller in a honda?
http://yfrog.com/j2k15iwj

 

[aarror]

muller in a honda?
http://yfrog.com/j2k15iwj

Oh please, please let this be happening! With Thompson and Muller coming back, this will be one hell of a weekend!

 

[Ardius]

muller in a honda?
http://yfrog.com/j2k15iwj

Oh please, please let this be happening! With Thompson and Muller coming back, this will be one hell of a weekend!

As I said in the BTCC thread (damn these general threads!) - its a photoshop. That car is a roadcar done up in a race livery that a stunt driver will do some demonstrations in as part of Honda's promotion of the event.

Muller will be currently pretty busy preparing for the next WTCC race.

 

[homeforsummer]

(damn these general threads!)

This general thread was here two years before the dedicated BTCC thread My assumption was that all touring car discussion could be here (since there's only a handful of people here taking part in the discussions), but someone felt the need for a dedicated BTCC thread anyway...

As for Muller, he's recently signed a contract for another year with Chevy in the WTCC so I don't think we'll be seeing him in the UK any time soon.

 

[Ardius]

Yes, I realise one came before the other, doesn't mean I have to like this thread!
The same problem with the "Le Mans general discussion" applies here - two conversations on the same subject can start to happen as people open up threads dedicated either to a specific series or to a specific race. Why have such a jumbled mess of conversation about different race series as well as the races themselves in one thread? Especially with series like WTCC, BTCC and DTM which frequently race on the same weekend - so we can end up with 3 or 4 dicussions going on at the same time in this thread.
Better to seperate out the dicussion into particular threads rather than mix it all up into one.

We seem to manage not having people talk about V8 Supercars in this thread, why should it be any different with BTCC?

 

[homeforsummer]

Given the large crossover between the series (the last few pages in this thread have been comparing WTCC with BTCC) I see no particular problem with it. Is this thread really that hard to follow? I personally found it less confusing before another thread sprang up and resulted in similar discussions being had in two places at once.

 

[Ardius]

Its not hard to follow now, but if one day WTCC did finally regain some popularity and/or DTM, it would be just a little confusing.
You only have to look at the Le Mans thread to see how much of a mess it can be when people wander in talking about completely different series.

And my point is that seperate threads are inevitably going to appear for more popular series. There is always going to be a Le Mans 24 thread and a Spa 24 thread - but someone is inevitably going to talk about both of them in the "General" thread as well.
It was only a matter of time before a seperate BTCC thread was made - I personally I prefer it as there is a fair bit more to talk about in BTCC terms than there is for WTCC, DTM, STCC, etc currently especially with the well-covered support races that come with it.

 

[Furinkazen]

Its not hard to follow now, but if one day WTCC did finally regain some popularity and/or DTM, it would be just a little confusing.
You only have to look at the Le Mans thread to see how much of a mess it can be when people wander in talking about completely different series.

And my point is that seperate threads are inevitably going to appear for more popular series. There is always going to be a Le Mans 24 thread and a Spa 24 thread - but someone is inevitably going to talk about both of them in the "General" thread as well.
It was only a matter of time before a seperate BTCC thread was made - I personally I prefer it as there is a fair bit more to talk about in BTCC terms than there is for WTCC, DTM, STCC, etc currently especially with the well-covered support races that come with it.

As of now BTCC is returning to its glory days. I felt that the series was big enough to warrant its own thread, and I'll almost certainly want to do the same in 2012.

 

[homeforsummer]

As of now BTCC is returning to its glory days. I felt that the series was big enough to warrant its own thread, and I'll almost certainly want to do the same in 2012.

That's fair enough, but I don't know whether another thread is required for each season. It's not like F1 where the threads get thousands of posts and one is required for every race. GTP went a good seven years before anyone created a touring car thread of any sort, so I don't see post numbers suddenly exploding.

 

[Prince.M5]

So this weekend we have the 19th and 20th race of the season for WTCC in Japan. This is the first time for WTCC to host a race of Japan in the Suzuka East Circuit which includes the main straight and the famous esses...

The story of the week though, Alain Menu seems to be a little out of contention of fighting for the championship after being about 70 points behind Rob Huff. However, the title fight belongs to his team mates, Rob Huff and Yvan Muller in which if Yvan wins it, it will be his 2nd championship title in WTCC.

For Turks fans, this weekend he will drive for Wiechers-Sport team and also for the Race of China.

There's going to be a lot of action this weekend where I would predict the FWD cars are going to struggle for tyre wear due to the stress on the esses part of the circuit. Awesome stuff this is!

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

So this weekend we have the 19th and 20th race of the season for WTCC in Japan. This is the first time for WTCC to host a race of Japan in the Suzuka East Circuit which includes the main straight and the famous esses...

Toshihiro Arai 8th in FP1!

 

[Prince.M5]

Toshihiro Arai 8th in FP1!

Yeah I caught that one. Impressive outing I have to say... The Volvo is going very strong here too, finishing second with just 1 tenths off Alain. Then there comes the long list of BMWs struggling to put a good lap time. Yeah I know it's just practice but seems like yet again they're struggling.