Toyota fails..... Again

  • Thread starter Thread starter Azure Flare
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A good idea?

  • yes

    Votes: 6 7.9%
  • no

    Votes: 70 92.1%

  • Total voters
    76
-> Oh man...I had very high hopes for the FT-86:

- Could've been called Corolla GTS
- Could've been called Celica GTS
- Could've been called a Scion "fT"

- But noooo, make it a dumb down, more boring (but marginally profitable), Solara SE. :indiff:

-> The Subie version is by far still on the foggy side on the engine and drivetrain department. But it looks like the only choice now.

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+

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=


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(I wish...)

:indiff:
 
I was actually looking forward to the FT86 being launched in Australia, if it had of been competitively priced with decent power output and minimalist in options (say $21k Australian), I would have bought one.

But at another likely $10k Australian by the time its on the road, its just not worth it.

There are no cheap small affordable FR coupes in Australia at the moment. It needs to change!
 
that would have been a perfect gen coupe 2.0 competitor, We need more new cheap RWD coupes....come on Nissan..you can do it...apparently Toyota through in the towel..

Cheap RWD coupe? The 2011 Mustang V6 starts at $23,000. I test drove one of these last week, a 👍 on Ford, I might get me one of these.
 
The Mustang is cheap but if his comment is anything along the lines of how I'm thinking, he also means lighter and more nimble too.

If someone could produce something around the 1000-1100kg mark (any lower probably isn't realistic for modern cars), with perhaps an engine choice ranging from a 1.2 3cyl turbo to a 1.5/1.6 high revving NA, RWD, fairly basic, quick enough to be fun (I'm thinking in the 8-10 second 0-60 ballpark) and a good suspension set up then my theoretical money would be heading their way.

Of course in the meantime you could always try and find an AE86 or on the complete unlikely off-chance stumble across one of those proper coupe MX5s. But I suspect there's a market there for such a car as I described.
 
The Mustang is cheap but if his comment is anything along the lines of how I'm thinking, he also means lighter and more nimble too.

If someone could produce something around the 1000-1100kg mark (any lower probably isn't realistic for modern cars), with perhaps an engine choice ranging from a 1.2 3cyl turbo to a 1.5/1.6 high revving NA, RWD, fairly basic, quick enough to be fun (I'm thinking in the 8-10 second 0-60 ballpark) and a good suspension set up then my theoretical money would be heading their way.

Of course in the meantime you could always try and find an AE86 or on the complete unlikely off-chance stumble across one of those proper coupe MX5s. But I suspect there's a market there for such a car as I described.

Until you said 'RWD' you'd basically just described a Twingo GT:

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Which incidentally is probably what I'd upgrade to tomorrow, were a skip to fall on my car.


Of course Ford USA are supposed to be developing a tiny 3 cylinder with a turbo stuck on the back, so I suppose the prospect of a smaller RWD coupe from them wouldn't be totally out of the question. A sort of Mustang-lite, if you will.
 
If they can water it down, make it a little more plush, and really give what the older folks want, why not? It's a good business decision. It'll still be a nice car too. I'd buy one.

If I was 45.

This is bad because decisions like this are what got Toyota out of the car industry and into the appliance industry in the first place. I think most of us were looking forward to a Toyota that was finally supposed to be 'cool' and now it's not.
 
Until you said 'RWD' you'd basically just described a Twingo GT

...and the Renaultsport, with the 1.6 high-revving NA. We must be on the same wavelength because those engine choices and the weight, performance and so on were all drawn up with the RS Twingo in mind! (Why? Because it's pretty old-school as hot hatches go. Very little technology and an engine you have to rev the hell out of to get anywhere. Sounds like the good old 1980s!)

Essentially, my ideal car would probably be the aforementioned tin-top MX5 (actually, Smart would have made my ideal car if they'd given the Roadster a manual 'box). But if a company wanted to give it a few extra seats and make it a bit more "day to day" then I wouldn't mind. Which is pretty much what I'd assumed the FT86 would have been like.

But then part of me was worried the FT86 would be a bit too techy anyway. Technology has it's place, but I like my cars to be simple.

Whatever though. If the eventual car still looks similar to the concept it'll still be one of the best looking cars on the roads.
 
Well, until the economy turns around and gas prices level out, I imagine that the automakers are going to continue doing what they do until they see an opportunity. As much as I disagree with Toyota, the bean-counters are making a safe bet. Given their own circumstances, a safe bet is all that they can afford.

I'm still crossing my fingers that GM will put together a Chevrolet based on the Alpha platform with the 2.0L Turbo and seating for five. A poorman's 3-series, it would be, and I would be there on day one.
 
I was hoping that the FT-86 may spur Nissan on to revive the Silvia. But seeing as they're now aiming at men who are having a mid-life crisis but can't afford a Porsche that isn't a Boxter, I'm just disappointed in them. I really thought with the Lexus IS-F and LF-A (seeing as Lexus is Toyota's luxury arm) Toyota were going to be fun again. I don't want Toyota to turn into Kia, making cars for pensioners and soccer moms.
 
Of course Ford USA are supposed to be developing a tiny 3 cylinder with a turbo stuck on the back, so I suppose the prospect of a smaller RWD coupe from them wouldn't be totally out of the question. A sort of Mustang-lite, if you will.
;)

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And the title can be changed to add ".......And Again" as rumours going around now are that it has been delayed until 2013 and a hybrid powertrain is being considered instead.
 
And the title can be changed to add ".......And Again" as rumours going around now are that it has been delayed until 2013 and a hybrid powertrain is being considered instead.

So this whole Toyota/Subaru thing was just a waste of cash?

Sucks we won't be seeing an FT-86 or a Subbie version.:grumpy:
 
toyota is run by accountants these days...

no soul left :(, i hope the same thing doesnt happen to their trucks/4wds.
 
Here's the link to the Autoblog article. It is still just a rumour at the moment, but it IS Toyota we're talking about.
 
So this whole Toyota/Subaru thing was just a waste of cash?

Just about everything they've done since 2002 has been a waste of cash. Attempting to alter their brand perception into something that is more "people friendly" instead of "car people friendly" will eventually bite them in the butt. Honda is having exactly the same problem, losing touch with what made them special, and subsequently, sales are falling off and new product deadlines are being pushed back.

I'm not shocked by this, but certainly disappointed.
 
And the title can be changed to add ".......And Again" as rumours going around now are that it has been delayed until 2013 and a hybrid powertrain is being considered instead.

I'd still maintain that there's nothing wrong with a hybrid powertrain as long as the engine it's connected to is a good one (after all, there are Porsche and Ferrari hybrids being developed... I doubt they'll have anything other than fantastic engines) and that it's given a manual gearbox instead of a droning CVT, but the delay is a bit pants. It suggests to me that they may just abandon it altogether.
 
So it looks like neither of these cars is going to happen? This is a new low for Toyota. Not cool when they taunt us with something cool then take it away. Oh well. I really want to see Subaru just go ahead and build the thing to shove it in Toyota's faces. Especially if it sells.

I'd still maintain that there's nothing wrong with a hybrid powertrain as long as the engine it's connected to is a good one (after all, there are Porsche and Ferrari hybrids being developed... I doubt they'll have anything other than fantastic engines) and that it's given a manual gearbox instead of a droning CVT, but the delay is a bit pants. It suggests to me that they may just abandon it altogether.

At least somebody still has high hopes of the thing being halfway interesting. Between knowing Toyota, thinking it was all too good to be true from the start and all the reports of making it hella lame, I'd honestly be very surprised if this thing turns out to be anything more than a RWD Camry coupe thing. And that's if it even happens.
 
I'd still maintain that there's nothing wrong with a hybrid powertrain as long as the engine it's connected to is a good one (after all, there are Porsche and Ferrari hybrids being developed... I doubt they'll have anything other than fantastic engines) and that it's given a manual gearbox instead of a droning CVT, but the delay is a bit pants. It suggests to me that they may just abandon it altogether.

If they're truthfully monitoring the CR-Z, that hasn't exactly been praised for being good as a sports car. The problem is Toyota don't have a fabulous engine, it'd probably get a Camry hybrid drivetrain but going to the rear wheels.:scared: I don't mind the idea of using a small electric motor charged by a KERS as a push-to-pass/nitrous-like-effect, but let's be serious, it's Toyota.
 
If they're truthfully monitoring the CR-Z, that hasn't exactly been praised for being good as a sports car. The problem is Toyota don't have a fabulous engine, it'd probably get a Camry hybrid drivetrain but going to the rear wheels.:scared: I don't mind the idea of using a small electric motor charged by a KERS as a push-to-pass/nitrous-like-effect, but let's be serious, it's Toyota.
Lotus have been using Toyota engines for a few years now and the only complaint I've ever heard is the need to give them some revs, but you would expect that on something with VTEC.

The engine designs aren't a problem, it's a question of whether Toyota are willing to tune them "sporty".
 
Lotus have been using Toyota engines for a few years now and the only complaint I've ever heard is the need to give them some revs, but you would expect that on something with VTEC.

The engine designs aren't a problem, it's a question of whether Toyota are willing to tune them "sporty".

The reason nobody has complained is because Lotus supercharge them, and in the naturally aspirated models the car is so redicoulously light it doesn't matter anyway.;)
 
The reason nobody has complained is because Lotus supercharge them, and in the naturally aspirated models the car is so redicoulously light it doesn't matter anyway.;)
Yes and applied to a car that had serious track-potential to live up to. Applied to a heavier sports car and maybe with a slight increase in power you can still make a good engine of it. But Toyota aren't willing to make that choice.
 
The reason nobody has complained is because Lotus supercharge them, and in the naturally aspirated models the car is so redicoulously light it doesn't matter anyway.;)

The naturally aspirated models produce 190 bhp and rev to 8,500 rpm... (at 1.8 liters, that puts them over the 100hp/liter mark) pretty heady numbers for such a small mill, and enough to give even the naturally aspirated model lots of zing.

The new base mill is the same 135 hp model used in the Corolla, which is still mroe than enough for such a light car.... high output isn't always the be-all and end-all of track car performance... handling is... and that's what Lotus sells the Elise on.

-

Unfortunately, there is no 2 liter version of this engine... while the 190 hp 1.8 would be good enough for the base model, any "cheap" FR sports coupe from Toyota will likely end up weighing 200-300 kilograms more than a Miata and over 400 kilos more than the Elise.

It would thus need either a higher displacement mill or forced induction to give it good midrange performance. And Toyotas higher displacement mills (their 2.0 and 2.4s from the Corolla and Camry) suck. Horribly. No top end at all, and a terrible inability to hold on to high revs.
 
If they're truthfully monitoring the CR-Z, that hasn't exactly been praised for being good as a sports car.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. The vast majority of tests I've read have been very positive (not to mention that the CRZ isn't a sports car. It's a sporty-ish economical hatchback)

Perhaps in Oz where nothing gets a second look if it doesn't make more than 300bhp and have a Ford or Holden badge on the bonnet it's not up to scratch but I personally find it rather funny that a whole internet of keyboard warriors hates the CR-Z for not having over 200bhp and because it's a hybrid (in other words, the devil in automotive form) yet the motoring press give it good reviews. It sort of confirms what I've said right from the start, which is that the outright performance of it is irrelevant because they've made it fun to drive even at low speeds... which are the speeds most of us tend to do on the road anyway...

Though that's besides the point. If Toyota keep this thing RWD then they're already off to a good start regardless of the engine powering it. If it is going to be a hybrid, then that doesn't matter either as long as the engine is responsive and sounds good (like the CRZ is supposed to) and they've given it good controls (again, like the CRZ).

And all of that wouldn't matter too much anyway if Toyota decide to make the rumoured simpler RWD coupe. That might be a hybrid too looking at the way things are going, but I'm sure a light and simple RWD coupe is exactly what a lot of people want. If it's hybrid then what the hell, it's still a petrol car at the end of the day, just one that doesn't use much fuel around town. I can't see in any way how that's a bad thing.
 
You mean when they discontinued the Supra?

Actually, I wasn't even thinking of the Supra. Mostly that, by 2002, the last of the "wow, these are actually nice Toyotas" were either just being introduced, or were on the way to their deathbed. Basically, this was when Toyota made cars... Not cars, trucks, minivans, SUVs, crossovers, "things" (I'm looking at you Venza), and so on.

I can think of only two exceptions to my claim, the Matrix and Corolla XRS. But I think that has more to do with drivetrain choices than anything else.
 
Toyota has been making trucks and vans long before 2002.

but there is another possibility as to why the japanese aren't sending us decent sports cars anymore.

what if it was because there are so many posers who only buy baseline models and "pimp" them up?

why should Honda send us a Type R Civic if all most of us needs is a DX Civic and a bodykit?
 
but there is another possibility as to why the japanese aren't sending us decent sports cars anymore.

what if it was because there are so many posers who only buy baseline models and "pimp" them up?

why should Honda send us a Type R Civic if all most of us needs is a DX Civic and a bodykit?

I can see what you're getting at, but it's very unlikely. The more probable reason is the massive stack of rules and red tape they'd have to fight their way through to bring stuff like Type Rs to the States, where different safety and emissions regulations are commonplace. The trouble then is being able to sell enough to justify the cost of all that.

That's Type Rs in particular though, since you mentioned it. The main reason is that there's no such real thing as a Japanese sports car market anywhere at the moment.

I've been racking my brains to think of all the proper, ground-up sports cars the Japanese produce at the moment (as opposed to sporty versions of normal cars a la Civic Type Rs and Sis). I can come up with the Nissan 370Z, Mazda RX8, Mazda MX5, higher up you've got the Nissan GT-R and much, much higher up the food chain, you've got the Lexus LF-A. I'm not including Infinity G37s and the like (plush sporty coupes) because they're more luxury cars that have a naughty side rather than actual sports cars.

The Lexus is impressive, but also stupidly expensive and very ugly (IMO). The RX-8, GT-R and 370Z are all great, but not necessarily affordable for young people, and the MX5 is more affordable but some people would want higher performance.

I don't know if it's just me also, but is America really warming to the NC MX5 or not? Looking around the internet I don't really see a great deal of support for it like you see for the older models.

So the USA does get sports cars from Japan, but they aren't really as affordable as they once were. There's nothing along the lines of the MR2, for example, which would give the MX5 some much-needed competition. Nissan were threatening to build an MX5 rival for a while too but I reckon the international economy problems killed that one off for the time being.
 
I don't know if it's just me also, but is America really warming to the NC MX5 or not? Looking around the internet I don't really see a great deal of support for it like you see for the older models.

I see a few new ones around my area, they are easily outnumbered by Sky's and Solstices though.
 
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