Toyota FT-HS Hybrid: 0-60 in 4 seconds

[YSSMAN]

Sounds like you have sports car and muscle car confused. Last I checked, my MR2 was a sports car. Yet it gets decent MPG depending on how I drive it. In the 30's when I actually keep it below the VVT point. It uses a silky smooth revving 20V 4 banger. And its a blast drive, pure and simply. Its got a computer, and a "fancy" engine that actually uses modern technology, but its hardly soul less.

I guess Clarkson and I are the last of a dying breed then...

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of modern sports cars that are great. As a matter of fact, I quite fancy the Elise and the MX-5, however I still like my things distinctively old school on many occasions. An old MGB still embodies a lot of what I hold dear when it comes to sports cars, hell even the old 911s and even the 2000GT of yore. Simply put, they just don't build them like they used to...

However, the American companies still think getting over 30 MPG in the compact car is a big deal. I see these big stickers on the sides of Chevy dealers with something like 33MPG on the side of a Cobalt with exclamation points and all... and I just laugh. I drive my Corolla less than friendly, and get over 35 with it. And I'm fairly certain my Corolla is gonna last longer as well.

I'm well aware that on average, most American small cars get a few MPG short of the Japanese competition. But so do the Germans, and the Koreans are still behind as well. So yes, we all point and laugh at the American car companies, despite the fact that a rather negligible 2 MPG difference on the highway. However I do wish to point out that GM is aiming to become the most fuel efficient automotive company by the end of the decade, and a good guess is that they could do it. However, new EPA testing may hurt everyone more than expected, so it will be interesting to see how cars and trucks are effected.

...And on reliability, well we know the old saying; "GM cars will run badly a lot longer than most cars will run at all."

Realize that someone has to try new technology before anyone else will follow suit. Toyota and Honda started with Hybrid cars, now the Americans are trying to get in on it (or they had plans at least). Just whoever goes first gets fingers pointed at for trying something different.

New technology is going to happen, and I realize that. However, that doesn't mean that everyone has to like it. There have been a lot of great advancements over the past 10 years alone in the automotive industry that have been great, and there have been some that have just been plain stupid. The more crap we add to our cars, the less we actually get to drive them. And next thing you know, cars will just follow each other in straight, narrow lines, everyone doing 45 MPH, half-dead on their way to school or work.

...Thus the reasons why sports cars were invented. If Toyota wants to go about their business with "the future of sports cars," they can be my guest, but I'd be more than happy to spend my money over at the Nissan or Mazda counter to get sports cars that deal in realism, and will be more satisfying to my needs as a driver, not as the guy who thinks hes driving.

And thats why the American car companies sales continue to slide. Its also why we have the most traffic fatalities per whatever you want to compare to each year. Its also why the American cars have the nasty rep of being unreliable, and why they depreciate faster in value.

Doing the "American" thing is just getting everyone else to stare in shock and then shake their heads. You have this attitude of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but more along the lines of don't mess with it at all. Like Philly pointed out, sports cars are about performance. Regardless of how you get it. Typically the best performance will come from the newest technology.

Often times I cannot help being a Michigan man. So much of everyone's lives are dictated by the automotive industry that even those who do not consider themselves to even care about cars and trucks in fact do a small bit. You see, many of the people here live, breath, and die Ford, GM, or DCX. I know that is indeed a far-cry from Washington or California, where the Japanese automakers have pretty much taken over. It certainly is a difference of environment, and it is part of the reason why Michigan remains at the epicenter of automobiles in this great country of ours.

One thing we do love here in Michigan is to piss-off Sierra Club type folks, particularly with events like the Woodward Dream Cruise, the Camaro Rally in Hell, and the Grand Rapids Classic Cruise. The scent of gasoline and burning rubber, the rumble of those old V8s, seeing what America looked like in it's greatest days.

But then again, we have completely different thoughts on what a sports car is. The Tesla is a brilliant idea, although nothing new to me, as I have been racing with a guy that builds a faster electric car, and has been doing so for years now. The Elise is probably the purest sports car I can think of. High revving DOHC motor, lightweight, and using some advanced design methods. It lakes fancy computers (unless you get the package for the driving aids).

You (YSSMAN) seem to think you need at least a V8, 5 liters of displacement, and pushrods to be a sports car. Its a rather stark difference from my view.

As pointed out earlier, I quite fancy the Elise, as it does embody what a sports car should be. Same goes for the MX-5, the Solstice, the Sky, assorted Caterhams, TVRs, etc. I'm sure that they are all the technology-filled cars that I'm supposed to hate, however I like each and every one of them. The difference is, these are cars that you drive, have fun in, and can still do most of the crazy stuff that we automotive types go looking for. Certainly I love my Camaros and Corvettes, Mustangs and Vipers, but there too is plenty of room for the rather basic, small-engined sports cars. After all, if it wasn't for cars like the MGA, Austin Healey, Triumph TR, etc (did I ever mention how much I like classic British sportscars?), we wouldn't have cars like the Corvette or even the FT-HS Concept today.

Toyota use to make fun cars, and not that long ago (the MR2 Spyder). They can do it again, they are just exploring something new. If it flops, you'll be happy because Toyota screws up again in your mind. If it works out, you can still get your V8 push rod from GM.

I think we have been in agreement on that before. Toyota can still build fun cars, but it often times seems as though they don't want to, or if they do, don't want to sell them in America. If Toyota could slap together a small, RWD sports coupe powered by the 2JZZE, match it up with a five or six speed manual, and push it out the door for $25K or less, they wold gain back a ton of reputation not only from myself, but from a lot of the sporting community. Maybe Nissan, GM, Ford, DCX, etc can convince them to go back to RWD, but until then I'll be remembering the old Celica Supras in fond memory.

Not to mention that all of our current beloved names will eventually be without gasoline engines, provided they keep the nameplates. A hydrogen-powered Corvette? It could happen.

Most folks are in a realization that it could happen in a not too distant future, however most of us prefer to think more positively. Chances are that most sports cars will remain gasoline or bio-fuel powered for decades, and will probably remain so while most "average" cars convert to hydrogen, ethanol, etc.

I am in total agreement with Azuremen. I have a lot of respect for you Brad, but I can't see how you can dismiss this from being a sports car because it doesn't destroy the earth, and you have to fill it up with $100 of petrol every trip.

It isn't necessarily a complete dismissal of the idea altogether, but more of a distaste for the idea, as it just doesn't fit the mold that I see before me. Sure, it could turn out to be "cool" or whatever, and it could turn out to just be a design exercise for Toyota to say "Hey, look what we can do!" If I had an outright guarantee by Toyota saying that none of the driveability of a sportscar would be sacrificed in a situation like this, there would be a slight possibility that I would buy-in, but given their reputation as of late, it is a no-go.

A good signal for the idea being that of a "good one," will be when the Europeans pick it up. But given that much of the movement for fuel efficiency in Europe and America has moved towards diesels, it may be a while before an idea such as this works out. Hybrids may come and go, and they may be here to stay, who knows. I personally am not sold on the idea as a whole, despite the merits that it may produce.

If Toyota can prove this to be as good as what it is supposed to be, I could be impressed. We will see I suppose, as there is bound to be a time that I realize that Hybrids are the future... That or my Toyota chip in my neck isn't working... Until then, the next step from gasoline for me is diesel, and I plan on staying there a while...

 

[niky]

(by the way...Motor Trend loved it. I think i'm gonna let that subscription expire.)

You're still subscribed to that rag?

If this is the future car styling, then I'm going to like future cars

Not me... I prefer my styling functional, thank you... and that styling is far from functional.

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RE: 0-60 times, Electric motors, AWD, and gearing.

Short gearing doesn't make the best 0-60 times. Every shift, no matter how well executed, adds about half a second to your time (pet peeve, my car has a short box, and it takes me two shifts to hit 60). The Corvette, as well as many other "supercars" and "super" sports cars can do the benchmark (or almost do it) in first gear.

Case in point? The Fiat Panda 4x4. One magazine or another (don't have my books with me here...) managed to rip off a spectacular 0-30 mph time (scoff... it's pretty hard to get the Panda to 60... ) by dumping the clutch at redline in second gear.

We don't have enough details on this engine, but "electric supercharger" is mentioned. This probably means that 400bhp is "on boost" power only, and that at other times, it's much less. Still, an electric supercharger is almost as linear as all-electric.

With AWD, it's traction and instant response that give you spectacular 0-60 times. The EVO FQ400 ain't exactly lightweight, and it gets sub-4-second times easily.

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A $30,000 price tag seems kind of farfetched given the technology, but it should be possible if they ditch the electric supercharger (which carries both the price penalty and weight penalty of needing a capacitor bank or battery pack) for a VGT-equipped turbocharger. With the right parts sharing, it should be okay.

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RE: sports cars: While I agree that driver involvement is sorely lacking in the Toyota/Lexus current range, you merely have to look downmarket at cars like the MR-S and the Yaris/Echo to find something close to actual driver involvement (close, in the case of the Echo, though I dislike the chassis and dead steering feel, actual, in the case of the MR-S).

No way we can judge this one until it comes out. Lexii may be boring, but then, Toyota can afford to slap all those doodads and killjoys on their "luxury" models. If budgetary restrains force them to offer nothing but basic traction control on this one, it might come out well.

 

[harrytuttle]

If we all ran around in Toyota's little "Utopiamobiles" like the Prius and the FT-HS, the world would be a very boring place indeed. They aren't anything pretty to look at, not at all invigorating to drive, and certainly a crime against humanity when it comes to any die-hard automotive enthusiast.

New technology is overrated, plain and simple. This is why people still build Cobras and Sevens, this is why the Corvette and Viper remain so successful. There isn't any reason to do something completely different if there isn't any reason to do it to begin with... When it works, it works.

I think you and I have discussed our displeasure with Toyota's & Honda's quite a few times. I do appreciate their intentions, but the execution is just awful.

As for new tech vs. old tech, I think they're simply different. Chevrolet has proven that an OHV V8 can be just as efficient and powerful as the ridiculously high-tech BMW V10 or Mercedes 6.2L V8. I think the level of technology -- used appropriately -- doesn't change the efficiency or ability of anything. It just changes the character, which is of utmost importance and probably the biggest deciding factor when it comes to sports cars.

One could argue that what cars should be is exactly what they were created for; transportation devices. I don't think the early guys had visions of racing and gross displays of power in their heads, it was all about shortening the travel time.

Isn't that kind of the definition of "going faster"? And I assume you forgot about all the chariot races in the BCE. Back then, horsepower was taken quite literally. When you show up with 8 stallions in front of your wheeled wooden bucket, people back up.




Because 8 horses means 8 times the stink.

 

[Philly]

30 large? Does this mean I could get a gas only model for around 25K? That would beat an STi for much less. Add some forced injection? Beat a many more cars for much much less? I don't believe the price tag. Just the car minus the drivetrain could probably be worth more than $30,000.