Trail Braking in Gran Turismo sport.

[Amon]

Hi.

In the past ( from 2000 to 2008 ) i used to simrace very seriously with many Pc racing simulators. I first raced in, and then organized different championships with different sims. Starting from Gran Prix Legends, then Nascar 2002, Nascar 2003, and then GTR / GTR2.

All of them had one thing in common, speaking of driving tecnique. You had to master trail braking, and often in different situations you had to apply throttle while braking till the middle of the corner to kill understeer.

However, time has passed, and nowadays i'm a decent pilot in GT using gamepad as a control method. ( don't have space and opportunity to use a wheel nowadays ).

Age, kids, whatever.

Now comes the question. When i see fast lap replays, i always see going from braking to gas, but never use them both.

How do the fast guys achieve that ? Do they alter brake balance in realtime during the lap ? Watching Red Bull ring for example, we have uphill and downhill corners. Brake balance can't be optimal for both situations.

What's the magic ?

Thanks, and sorry for my English.

 

[StPeterMartyr]

I can't answer your question, with my DS4 right stick for brakes and throttle, trail braking is not an option.

ps#1: Never be sorry for your English! Just think of how fluent English native speakers are in Italian, French, German etc...

ps#2: Tell your avvie that protective masks should be available almost everywhere by now (I know, it isn't funny, I take it back)

 

[ringkurier]

Hi.

In the past ( from 2000 to 2008 ) i used to simrace very seriously with many Pc racing simulators. I first raced in, and then organized different championships with different sims. Starting from Gran Prix Legends, then Nascar 2002, Nascar 2003, and then GTR / GTR2.

All of them had one thing in common, speaking of driving tecnique. You had to master trail braking, and often in different situations you had to apply throttle while braking till the middle of the corner to kill understeer.

However, time has passed, and nowadays i'm a decent pilot in GT using gamepad as a control method. ( don't have space and opportunity to use a wheel nowadays ).

Age, kids, whatever.

Now comes the question. When i see fast lap replays, i always see going from braking to gas, but never use them both.

How do the fast guys achieve that ? Do they alter brake balance in realtime during the lap ? Watching Red Bull ring for example, we have uphill and downhill corners. Brake balance can't be optimal for both situations.

What's the magic ?

Thanks, and sorry for my English.

Excellent question, this is something I am wondering about, too.

But yes, fast drivers (and sometimes slow old grumpy men who pretend to be fast like me) are adjusting the brake balance from section to section. Especially usefull at Mount Panorama and Red Bull Ring.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I don't have the patience to mess with the brake balance multiple times in a lap. I usually set and forget unless I'm doing a longer race and need to adjust it to offset handling differences with worn tires. I do trail brake a lot but am using a wheel.

 

[Amon]

Thanks for your answers

It looks like some of you guys change brake bias on the go as I suspected, on certain tracks at least.

Anybody else ?

 

[Groundfish]

Trail brake a lot, don’t adjust on fly.
Bb0 racecars. Road fwd sometimes 5 rear.
Usually 1-2 sec off NA top ten times.
Wheel.

 

[OO_skyline_OO]

I share a similar background. Starting on GTR/GTR2/WTCC and also a bit of real-world karting, I would say trail braking is always the ultimate gold standard - particularly in karting.

But I would say PD only got it right with trail braking in the latest GT Sport title. Since GT5, tyre models and braking realism were not realistic compared to real world (though it was decent compared to other sim racing titles back then). In GT5/6, the car vibrates like crazy under braking, and ABS almost never work... as a result, trail braking was not really possible. My theory is ever since Kaz went real racing himself in a Lexus GT3, he was able to bring the real experience into GT Sport. All the racing cars like GT3/SF19/F1 become realistic enough, otherwise FIA would not have sanctioned official race series.

GT has one weakness when it comes to realism. The best laptimes are often not attainable in real life -- the top racers often outperform the best ever qualifying laptime at GT3/F1 level by a margin of 2-3 seconds. I have taken part in a couple of local eSport events, and observed the best players always do something that you probably won't attempt in real life -- e.g. super aggressive downshifting, taking unusual lines (that do not incur penalties of course)...etc. eSport is still eSport. I'm afraid if you applied a real life driving style into GT Sport, you will never achieve the top laptimes.

Recently, Lewis Hamilton's laptime is nearly 2 seconds slower than the fastest one by Hizal. I think that says a lot...

P.S. to those who have read my whole thread, thank you.

 

[splitwindow]

Mastering using downshift to get the car really rotating seems like a pretty big part of it I think?
I'm not sure what the physics are like now, but if I remember correctly it used to be accepted that the effect was unrealistically excessive and very advantageous.
Then again I'm pretty casual and drive auto more often than not so I may be way off the mark.

 

[Rangeraus]

Thanks for your answers

It looks like some of you guys change brake bias on the go as I suspected, on certain tracks at least.

Anybody else ?

Trailbraking is incredibly important in GTS. But I don't know of anyone who changes their BB during a single lap for different corners... but yes it is sometimes changed throughout the race based on tyres/fuel.

 

[Lost Sheltie]

I've seen Lightning adjusting his brake balance during the lap depending on the upcoming corner, but most don't simply due to effort.
You could try watching Tidgney's GT Sport driving school videos for some tips -

 

[BaareCZ]

I have always trail braked in GTS but back then I didn't even know that it's called trail braking and it's actually a special driving technique. It was completely automatic and instinctive. Never even thought about it. But if you play with a DS4 and use the right stick for throttle/brake then you don't stand a chance. R2 for throttle and L2 for brake is a must if you want to trail brake with a controller. And once you get used to it, it's so much better like that. I really do recommend doing it. I now have a wheel but you can get pretty quick and competitive with a DS4 as well in this game. As for the brake bias. It is very important and I do adjust it every time and differently in each type of car (FF, FR, MR). Sometimes to limit or affect tyre wear, other times to balance the car better on tracks with big elevation changes (Bathurst, RBR, Nürburgring, ...). But I very rarely change it between individual corners (except for said tracks). Usually just between laps. I don't have the Thrustmaster T-GT with a dedicated knob for it and also doing it mid-lap disrupts my focus somewhat.

 

[Amon]

Many thanks for the answers guys

 

[OO_skyline_OO]

I have always trail braked in GTS but back then I didn't even know that it's called trail braking and it's actually a special driving technique. It was completely automatic and instinctive. Never even thought about it. But if you play with a DS4 and use the right stick for throttle/brake then you don't stand a chance. R2 for throttle and L2 for brake is a must if you want to trail brake with a controller. And once you get used to it, it's so much better like that. I really do recommend doing it. I now have a wheel but you can get pretty quick and competitive with a DS4 as well in this game. As for the brake bias. It is very important and I do adjust it every time and differently in each type of car (FF, FR, MR). Sometimes to limit or affect tyre wear, other times to balance the car better on tracks with big elevation changes (Bathurst, RBR, Nürburgring, ...). But I very rarely change it between individual corners (except for said tracks). Usually just between laps. I don't have the Thrustmaster T-GT with a dedicated knob for it and also doing it mid-lap disrupts my focus somewhat.

Yes indeed, DS4 with motion steering (and R1/R2 as throttle/brake) is very driveable. I used to have G25 and G27 for GT5/6 but since GTS I've been on DS4...

 

[Amon]

Yes indeed, DS4 with motion steering (and R1/R2 as throttle/brake) is very driveable. I used to have G25 and G27 for GT5/6 but since GTS I've been on DS4...

Motion sensor for steering is an interesting approach to the problem. Does it really work from a performance point of view ?

 

[mthomas_95]

But if you play with a DS4 and use the right stick for throttle/brake then you don't stand a chance.

Heaven knows how I qualified for Live Events, gotten World Records and won Superstars races using that right stick

I think quite a lot of people don't actually know what trail braking is. It's turning into the apex and progressively lifting the brakes at the same time. Nothing to do with applying both throttle+brakes, which is a limitation of the right stick but pretty minor to be honest.

 

[BaareCZ]

Heaven knows how I qualified for Live Events, gotten World Records and won Superstars races using that right stick

Good for you, man. 👍 You're good. And how many others like you are there do you reckon? Not many, would be my guess. You think everyone has that kind of dexterity? Anyone can do it? And that's my point.

I think quite a lot of people don't actually know what trail braking is. It's turning into the apex and progressively lifting the brakes at the same time.

Come on. Don't underestimate us, mate. I think quite a lot of people (on this forum at least) actually know what trail braking is. Thanks for the lecture though. I've tried to learn it using the right stick but it's just waaaay easier to use L2 and R2 instead and that's why I (personally) would always recommend it to everyone over using the right stick.

Nothing to do with applying both throttle+brakes, which is a limitation of the right stick but pretty minor to be honest.

Minor? Well, that is your opinion and I disagree with it wholeheartedly. Everyone has a different driving style. I personally consider it pretty major. So, let's agree to disagree, shall we? Cheers, mate.

 

[Deadpool]

Being able to trail brake with light throttle application can be critical depending on the car. Say the 997 daily race at the Ring. Using a small amount of throttle helps to balance the chassis on the limit under braking. Lifting completely can create too much LTO.

Some cars are ridiculously stable and this isn’t applicable to those. It really depends on the car and driving style.

I like to have the car rotated a lil on entry to point my front end. I usually opt for cars that are “pointy” and it requires balancing the rear end a lot. It’s very difficult to manage this style with a DS4, some guys can work dark magic with a DS4, they are aliens and anomalies lol.

 

[mthomas_95]

And how many others like you are there do you reckon?

There's a much larger portion of A+ drivers that use pad than many realise. I personally think more pad people would be A+ if it wasn't for a mental block I see a lot across forums/social media that the wheel is far superior when the actual difference in lap times is tiny at most. In quite a few circumstances the pad is probably outright faster! Out of the top pad players, it's pretty varied whether they use the stick or triggers.

Thanks for the lecture though. I've tried to learn it using the right stick but it's just waaaay easier to use L2 and R2 instead and that's why I (personally) would always recommend it to everyone over using the right stick.

And I find the right stick easier to use than the triggers, but people should use what's comfortable for them. Your assertion was that the right stick was a major disadvantage which is not based on any evidence and risks misleading people, forcing them into a controller setup they're not comfortable with.

 

[BaareCZ]

I find the right stick easier to use than the triggers, but people should use what's comfortable for them.

100% agree. It is absolutely individual. But people should also be aware of the options available and the advantages/disadvantages of those options.

Your assertion was that the right stick was a major disadvantage which is not based on any evidence

Not based on any evidence? Ok, then. How do you you correct oversteer under heavy breaking or stabilize the car under heavy braking with throttle while using the right stick? You can't, can you? Just because your driving style doesn't require it doesn't mean it is a minor limitation. It only makes it a minor limitation for you. It is a major disadvantage of using the right stick and people who play GTS with a DS4 should be aware of that before they stick with it and have to adapt their driving style around that "minor limitation".

misleading people, forcing them into a controller setup they're not comfortable with.

Forcing them? Okay. Maybe the way I phrased it might have sounded a little definitive but I guess I have a little more faith in people and their intelligence. I think they will not use L2/R2 if it's not comfortable for them just because someone somewhere said they should. Especially now, when there's evidence (you) that it can be done with the right stick as well.

Before I got myself a wheel I played Gran Turismo for many many years using the right stick. Switching to L2/R2 was the best thing I could've done.

DISCLAIMER:
- Everything I write and have ever written on this forum is my personal opinion. It should not, under any circumstances, be taken as a proven fact or without any consideration.

 

[splitwindow]

I think quite a lot of people don't actually know what trail braking is. It's turning into the apex and progressively lifting the brakes at the same time. Nothing to do with applying both throttle+brakes,

Actually I've got to strongly agree with this.
It's been some time since I watched a top 10 lap time replay, basically because at the stage I'm at they're just more depressing than helpful to me .
However my observation has always been that the aliens do it entirely through ultra smooth and super progressive measured inputs and seem to pretty much never two foot it at all.

 

[Amon]

Heaven knows how I qualified for Live Events, gotten World Records and won Superstars races using that right stick

I think quite a lot of people don't actually know what trail braking is. It's turning into the apex and progressively lifting the brakes at the same time. Nothing to do with applying both throttle+brakes, which is a limitation of the right stick but pretty minor to be honest.

Of course using throttle under braking is different from trail braking, that's why opened this thread mate.

However not having split axes looks like a limitation to me, even if you don't want to use throttle under braking. With split axes transition from full throttle to full brake is istantaneous if you want to do so, while when having throttle and brakes on the same axis does not allow you that, you lose time going from full throttle to full brake every time you brake hard.

It's not a great loss, but it's a loss that happens on every hard braking during the lap. And when you are at your level that counts, and counts ever more if you start considering how many time you lose not on a single lap, but on a race.

This fact alone shows that your achievements could even be greater and you are limiting yourself without a real reason.

At least that's my opinion.

 

[BaareCZ]

However not having split axes looks like a limitation to me, even if you don't want to use throttle under braking. With split axes transition from full throttle to full brake is istantaneous if you want to do so, while when having throttle and brakes on the same axis does not allow you that, you lose time going from full throttle to full brake every time you brake hard.

Right? It's like playing with a wheel and only using right foot. Sure, it gets the job done but using both feet gets the job done a lot better.

 

[Amon]

Heaven knows how I qualified for Live Events, gotten World Records and won Superstars races using that right stick

I think quite a lot of people don't actually know what trail braking is. It's turning into the apex and progressively lifting the brakes at the same time. Nothing to do with applying both throttle+brakes, which is a limitation of the right stick but pretty minor to be honest.

Can i ask you a question ? How do you cope with tracks with Red Bull Ring braking wise ? You can't use throttle under braking to alter brake bias. But the track has at least two heavy braking areas, one going uphill, one going downhill. So you should, al least in my opinion, have different brake bias for those two zones. Do you alter brake bias on the fly ? And if you don't, how can you be fast having one braking area where the car understeers on corner entry, and the other where the car oversteers on corner entry ?

 

[watto79]

Right? It's like playing with a wheel and only using right foot. Sure, it gets the job done but using both feet gets the job done a lot better.

Don't quote me on this but I think Miyazono only uses his right foot. I'm sure I read somewhere that he, or another WT regular right foot brakes.

Senna had an unusual throttle technique.

Michael Johnson's running technique was something you wouldn't dream about teaching to a young athlete.

The "best" way to do anything is the way that works for the individual.

Personally the only way I can get a car around the multiple apex corner at Dragon Trail Gardens at speed consistently is by balancing the throttle and brake at the same time. None of the top 10 replays I watched were doing that, but try as I might, I'd be slower and/or would crash if tried any other method.

 

[Deadpool]

There's a much larger portion of A+ drivers that use pad than many realise. I personally think more pad people would be A+ if it wasn't for a mental block I see a lot across forums/social media that the wheel is far superior when the actual difference in lap times is tiny at most. In quite a few circumstances the pad is probably outright faster! Out of the top pad players, it's pretty varied whether they use the stick or triggers

The DS4 can match the times of a wheel or get very close. Some tracks/cars the DS4 suffers from not being as smooth.

Where the DS4 suffers and where the wheel IS FAR superior, is tire wear and consistency. While the DS4 can hold its own in a single lap time attack setting, it loses out big time to the wheel over a race stint.

 

[Groundfish]

Right? It's like playing with a wheel and only using right foot. Sure, it gets the job done but using both feet gets the job done a lot better.

I beg to differ, sir. I would qualify my comment with the following tho. Csl elite plus lc brake, pedals can be positioned right by each other, yes, there can be advantage to both feet, but only if one has the necessary coordination to use those feet quicker smoother and more accurately than a pickpockets hands in a tourist town.
A LOT of players have a big misconception about where a lot of laptime is gained.
Instantaneous transition from full throttle to full brake at the end of long straights for example, trying to hit that at latest possible second...
The car at that point is not accelerating much at all, overslow it slightly, have it out of balance slightly, these will not allow one to carry max speed on entry or apex, which leads to slower exit speed.
Sure, I will give you maybe on that one in a 100 miracle qual lap you might gain a portion of a tenth slamming and banging down gears and getting lucky and hooking up on exit, but that’s not done in race.
In race you will be inconsistent and make big mistakes doing that.
But the big thing there is the misconception involved about HOW to get the best times you can make, and make those times every. single. lap.
Lifting and transitioning pedal for a one foot guy (only saying with pedals setup nicely for that) coming off a straight is a big advantage IF you set the car into the turn on entry very well.
Lifting on exit is a major slowdown. Why? The car is accelerating rapidly. Interrupt that and you pay a huge price. End of straight that’s not the case and risking it all for some fraction of a tenth isn’t worth it. Certainly not in gr3 cars for example.
More important is adjusting the cars speed correctly there and it’s balance has a lot to do with what that speed is...
Plus, for some people their left foot will never have the fine control needed to use left foot braking.
There’s certain cases where you have to think for yourself and what you can do vs some theoretical ideal. 99.9999 percent of us will never be aliens, but we can all understand where the priorities are on a given track to make time.
Far as ds4, I haven’t used one in any game since trans world surf ps2. I don’t have the fine motor control needed. But, as an experiment I tried using pad one day last week for a few hours as a test.
Straight off, for myself the sticks are useless for me.
Honestly I couldn’t complete a lap on pad even using tcs. But, I finally switched to motion steer l2 r2. Then I was able to drive. It’s frustrating tho, the game has some background stuff on it seems...
But, using that controller setup the cars were at least drivable and on a really good lap at Interlagos I could come within 2.5 sec of my racepace. MT is a no go. Waaay too difficult. On the ring in the 911 we ran a week or 2 back I was within 20 seconds of my qual time. If I can do that, as essentially someone who has zero ds4 ability at all, I think it’s a setup worth trying.
Overall, I think each persons different and has their own driving style and strengths and weaknesses. It’s cool the game works and all can be competitive.

 

[KosmoKazi]

I'm not super quick (yet... working on it) in GTS but I have a little experience IRL... trail braking is key to my style. I like to use it to settle the front end, to apply more weight to the front for turning grip, to swing the rear end out for better angle onto the apex, and to overall cover up my mistakes (no one is perfect, a system that lets you constantly correct with more than one dimension of input will be better for a human driver) by overlapping all of the vectors to keep it 'within the circle'. I have enjoyed GT Sport compared to prior versions because it's the first one that seems to really get this to be more realistic. You can 'feel' the front end now instead of it just being a cliff of oversteer no matter what you did. Forza 6/7 had it down too, IMO, though I might need to go back to it and compare sometime, since I've focused only on GT since the holidays.

In karts, as a heavier driver (compared to the 140# jockeys) it is even more important, to turn the car on it's center axis on turns... the local fun place turned off their throttle/ignition with the brake a few years ago, it really caught me out. No more trail braking under throttle... had to adjust. (it can be heavy on the wear items, I'm sure). But even throttle-off trail braking into the corner will provide you with that extra input for control. Over shoot it a bit... add some more brake pressure with the wheel correction. Under shoot it... let up and let the car glide out from the apex without adjusting the wheel, maybe even get the car to slide on all four corners, so you can apply more throttle in parallel, might even be faster on exit then you planned.

I'm always looking to see how any mistake I make can be made an advantage, instead of a net loss. Most mistakes in racing can yield at least some benefit in the next section, even if it's less fast in total than the optimal line, you can recover some of it and even put it to use to set up something further up the road. Especially in a race. So the extra control is just another tool to use.

 

[Rangeraus]

The DS4 can match the times of a wheel or get very close. Some tracks/cars the DS4 suffers from not being as smooth.

Where the DS4 suffers and where the wheel IS FAR superior, is tire wear and consistency. While the DS4 can hold its own in a single lap time attack setting, it loses out big time to the wheel over a race stint.

Something I learned after being at DR A for over a year, is to be careful about using the reasoning of "Person A only wins because they have XYZ advantage". Because very likely there is someone else who can and will use exactly the same equipment you are using, and get a much better result (I learned this one the hard way).

There are World Finalists who still use a DS4 for regular FIA season races - they would not have qualified if they were 1 lap wonders (and couldn't manage entire races effectively).

 

[Redneckchef]

Something I learned after being at DR A for over a year, is to be careful about using the reasoning of "Person A only wins because they have XYZ advantage". Because very likely there is someone else who can and will use exactly the same equipment you are using, and get a much better result (I learned this one the hard way).

There are World Finalists who still use a DS4 for regular FIA season races - they would not have qualified if they were 1 lap wonders.

I can back that up. I have definitely been beating people at my level often enough by being smooth and consistent, allowing me to be easier on the tires. Then I see they are talking about FFB settings for their wheel or stuff like that holding them back. I'm on a DS4, just learning as I go and practicing different lines if I see others do them or find they provide the right advantages at the right time.

As for trail braking I find it is harder for me to do consistently on the DS4 but when it is worth a large amount of time on certain tracks I take the time to figure it out. Still a mid B/S driver, but staying consistent. And adding driving skills to the repertoire as I go.

 

[Deadpool]

Something I learned after being at DR A for over a year, is to be careful about using the reasoning of "Person A only wins because they have XYZ advantage". Because very likely there is someone else who can and will use exactly the same equipment you are using, and get a much better result (I learned this one the hard way).

There are World Finalists who still use a DS4 for regular FIA season races - they would not have qualified if they were 1 lap wonders (and couldn't manage entire races effectively).

Those are anomalies, and when it comes down to it, the very very top are on wheels and they have a advantage over the DS4 with tire wear. While they can certainly compete at the higher levels, they are def at a disadvantage. And when they are in the world finals, what is their preference......wheel, for obvious reasons. When you reach that very top, every little advantage helps wether it be a wheel or a load cell.

I can back that up. I have definitely been beating people at my level often enough by being smooth and consistent, allowing me to be easier on the tires. Then I see they are talking about FFB settings for their wheel or stuff like that holding them back. I'm on a DS4, just learning as I go and practicing different lines if I see others do them or find they provide the right advantages at the right time.
.

The FFB can def be a love hate thing. With the old 962/Sauber etc it is a workout. But the extra information it gives on the limit is a advantage in close racing making tiny adjustments on the limit.