Trail Throttle Oversteer is missing???
- Thread starter gmoney1
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- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
Being FR shouldn't dictate if the car can or can't be induced int lift off oversteer should it? I could get lift of oversteer from my 306 TDi, that was fwd. I thought it depended more on the chassis than the drive train.
I have just checked and it seems that Trailing throttle oversteer is another word for lift off oversteer and snap oversteer.
I have just checked and it seems that Trailing throttle oversteer is another word for lift off oversteer and snap oversteer.
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- 23,800
- Philippines
Although I haven't noticed any lift off oversteer in the normal car I most definitely do get it a fair bit on the tuned car (mostly in the turn 3/4 complex right hander). Also further to niky's point, Traction Control System (TCS) does exactly that, controls traction. TCS doesn't just work under acceleration you know...
the Interceptor
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- Germany
- theInterceptor77
Just for clarification: lift-off oversteer happens when you transfer the weight to the front of the car, the rear axle becomes light, and you overcome the grip of the rear wheels, right? So once the rear wheels don't grip anymore, how is traction control in an FR vehicle going to change that?
- 23,800
- Philippines
It limits the amount of weight transfer to the rear, for one... and it keeps the rear tires stuck to the ground. I know, lift-off oversteer doesnt' depend on unsticking the rears with power, but the violence of the transfer forward has an effect on how easy it is to initiate oversteer. With TCS on, you have less rearward bias to transfer into forward bias on lift-off.
I could be totally off-base, but my point is: unless you can do it in real life on the exact same track with the same tires (warmed up), you can't specifically say it should do it.
I could be totally off-base, but my point is: unless you can do it in real life on the exact same track with the same tires (warmed up), you can't specifically say it should do it.
- 1,067
- No46_TheDoctor or SSRacingUK
- 601
- eggs2see
Wow a lot of misinformation flying around here. TCS will not lessen the effects of lift-off oversteer as tcs generally controls the power by limiting rpm, closing the throttle or even limiting boost in turbo cars. Lift off oversteer is caused by weight transfer and not by power. I think some people are confusing tcs with asm, which is designed to limit a car sliding through a corner often by applying carying levels of brake to the wheels.
To get back to the OP. It is most certainly possible in this game, and is very noticeable in the stock car, however the added downforce on the tuned car seems to eliminate most lift-off oversteer as far as i could tell.
To get back to the OP. It is most certainly possible in this game, and is very noticeable in the stock car, however the added downforce on the tuned car seems to eliminate most lift-off oversteer as far as i could tell.
- 8,381
- The Black Lodge
Not everybody is online 24/7 you know.
And a simple copy/paste of 'Trail Throttle Oversteer' into Google will teach you that it's synonymous for lift-off oversteer (yes, I looked it up too, since I had no idea what he was talking about 
).
the Interceptor
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- theInterceptor77
How so? Given you were in a steady state of acceleration when you lift off, the TC was never active to begin with. Therefore, the momentum transfered to the front of the car should be just the same with and without TC.
My point is that TC aids traction by cutting power from the engine the moment it overcomes the traction of the propelled wheels. Since there is no engine power involved when lift-off oversteer occurs, the TC can not do anything to prevent it.
- 676
- GTP_TrievelA7X
Well, actually, TCS's sole purpose is to increase traction, which should in theory increase the weight transfer, which is the opposite of what you said.
So if TCS is working right, you'll have more forward weight transfer on lift-off.
A prime example of this would be Mercedes E55 AMG.
But 370's, I believe, are a very mild understeer car, with zero lift-off oversteer. Actually, come to think of it, other than your local blatent oversteering RWD, RWD's typically never have lift off oversteer, that's usually reserved for FWD, Trucks, and mid-rear engine cars. The vehicles that are REALLY unbalanced in weight ratio, or have more weight on the rear.
So, technically, what's the difference between lift-off oversteer, and trailing throttle oversteer?
- 1,702
- balang_479
Seismica
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- GTP_Seismica
Lift off oversteer has little to do with TCS, it only takes affect under acceleration, not deceleration.
It is caused by the removal of weight on the rear wheels under deceleration. less weight on the rear and more weight transferred to the front means the front, heavy and grippy, slows down and turns in, whilst the rear keeps on going quickly, and under turning this leads to the back end stepping out. In a well designed car the back end doesn't seem to step out at all, instead the front end steps in more to help steering. You can see Lotus have this at the heart of their Elise design.
Because the weight distribution of front engine rear wheel drive cars is naturally front heavy, the affect is lessened because the weight transfer is minimal. Oversteer occurs naturally in FR cars because of this. So by that i would say its spot on, although someone who has actually drove the car in real life could give a better account.
It is caused by the removal of weight on the rear wheels under deceleration. less weight on the rear and more weight transferred to the front means the front, heavy and grippy, slows down and turns in, whilst the rear keeps on going quickly, and under turning this leads to the back end stepping out. In a well designed car the back end doesn't seem to step out at all, instead the front end steps in more to help steering. You can see Lotus have this at the heart of their Elise design.
Because the weight distribution of front engine rear wheel drive cars is naturally front heavy, the affect is lessened because the weight transfer is minimal. Oversteer occurs naturally in FR cars because of this. So by that i would say its spot on, although someone who has actually drove the car in real life could give a better account.
- 2,021
- N. Ireland
- JamboGT
TCS does not increase traction in the slightest, this is a common misconception. It merely limits wheelspin so the traction limit is not exceeded.
There is some serious misinformation out here. A few of you are spot on, but still have no real anwser to the question on whether trail throttle oversteer exsist on the demo. I am a part time performance driving instuctor so I am very familiar with this concept. As with most performance driving/racing schools the students experience and learn this concept early on. Easiest and safest way to do this is on a slalom cone course. As the students weave thru the cones at a constant speed they are asked to lift off the throttle while turning in. This as said before by a few others causes any and all cars (with very few exceptions) to oversteer. So try it yourself in the demo. Weave back and forth on the straight at say 50mph with contant gas. note: do not induce any understeer as this will effect the demonstration. Then do the same thing but this time lift off the throttle while turning in. Again since TCS has nothing to do with this and ASM is off, the car should induce T.T.O. but from what I see this is not happening.
- 818
Lift off oversteer occurs in any car, regardless of driveline arrangement, but its severity is dependant on the cars initial weight balance, centre of gravity height, rotational inertia of the driveline, damper stiffness, spring stiffness and probably several other factors that aren't immediately springing to mind (hell, tire stiffnes would play a part, which is dependant on temperature and pressure). Its a combination of the driven wheels braking slightly due to the engine and weight transfer forward. As others have mentioned, traction control will not help at all and you really can't know the severity without actually driving the real car.
- 931
- Montgomery, AL
Maybe you aren't near enough to the tires' limits of traction for the lift to induce oversteer.
The first lap I ran with the stock car, I lifted about half a second after turn-in while entering the 5th corner, thinking I was coming in a little too quickly due to the tire noise and the sensation of understeer. Right after lifting, the nose dipped and the rear end started to swap around on me... I remember smiling and thinking "ok, this isn't going to be a cakewalk." To me it sounds like you're not pushing the tires enough. Lift-off oversteer definitely happens.
Scaff
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That to be honest is about the most accurate answer so far, as while lift off oversteer can potentially occur in any car, it depends on a huge range of factors and as such its not possible to categorically state that a car should or should no being doing it unless you can exactly recreate the same situation both in game and in the real world (using the same car and corner combo).
Keep in mind that you can set a car up to almost totally remove lift off oversteer, or you can make it an almost certainly. The common trait of almost all French hot-hatches is to bias them towards lift off oversteer (the Pug 205 Gti being the classic example), mainly achieved by a stiff rear anti-roll bar and a very soft (or non-existent) front anti-roll bar. If you reverse this set-up you get a car that wants to loose front end grip long before the rear and almost no chance of lift off oversteer.
That's just one example of how you could bias a car towards or away from lift off oversteer, and given that, unless we have direct experience of the set-up and handling characteristic of the exact same car on the exact same corner we can't say for sure, one way or the other, that its right or wrong in the demo.
Scaff
- 600
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
Its certainly possible (lift off oversteer was practically impossible in the BMW Z3 for example), however it does need to be tuned out for it to be difficult to notice, rather turned 'down'.
Lift off oversteer is not always a desirable handling trait for a mass-market road car, the less customers you have traveling through hedges backwards simply because they back off the throttle a little too quickly, the better.
The vast, vast majority of road cars (regardless of target audience) are tuned to understeer on the limit, its safer for the 'average' driver in that regard. Now many (in particular RWD and MR cars) can then be forced to transition to oversteer, mainly via power-over situations.
Lift-off oversteer, particularly to the degree the old Pug 205's dealt it out, is not normally considered a desirable trait for a road car, certainly not by the vast majority of manufacturers (and I've worked for a few).
Scaff
Well said Scaff and Wolfracer. Although I do not agree with the idea of lift off over steer not being an issue with the BMW Z3. I live an hour away from where they used to build the Z3 and Z4 and have tracked both cars extensivly. The Z3 rotates when streering input is given and the throttle is off like any other sports car. Remember all BMWs are very close to 50/50 weight balance. Back to the point. From what I have found is that T.T.O. is absent from the demo would love for someone to prove me wrong. A video showing this would be great. Remeber when Trail Throttle Oversteer is intiated the only way to save the spin is to apply throttle and give approiate wheel input. I think some people are still confused by this concept and how to intiate it.
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
If you live an hour away from the place they built them you would be in the US, the EU spec cars had quite a different suspension set-up on the Z3 than the US model ones.
Certainly all the ones I have driven on road or track demonstrated a large reluctance to lift off oversteer, the Z4 however is a totally different beast.
Regards
Scaff
- 200
- JimmyLoops
after watching the lead times replays, Is Lift off Oversteer even neccesary for a track like Indy? Am I off base by saying the 370z seems to be a "momentum" kinda car, rather that a point n shoot kinda car? Some drivers may know what I'm refering to. I'm a bit puzzled myself about this post...
- 931
- Montgomery, AL
^ I don't think he's saying it should be there in terms of usefulness for this track (as far as I'm concerned, lift-off oversteer is never useful); I think he's just commenting that it doesn't stand up to his idea of a driving sim without it.
Like I said earlier, though, I've definitely induced oversteer with a quick throttle lift... I think he just wasn't pushing the limits of traction enough when he was trying to induce oversteer with a throttle lift.
Like I said earlier, though, I've definitely induced oversteer with a quick throttle lift... I think he just wasn't pushing the limits of traction enough when he was trying to induce oversteer with a throttle lift.
OK, lets start over. Im not stating that Lift Off Oversteer is necessary to put down a fast lap, or that is necessary to drive slowly, or that it is a factor in any way with regards to the 370, Indy's road course, and the way you approach this when driving. I am asking if T.T.O. is present in the new physics engine of the demo??????? Has anyone truely witnessed this phenomena while driving either car????????? Please Google and watch video of Trail Throttle Oversteer (lift off oversteer) if you are still uncertain, so as to move to an actual answer of the ORIGINAL QUESTION.
