Trailing Throttle Oversteer

R

revhead_1000

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Australia
Australia
revhead_1000
Hey all, I have just tried GTR2 and in that sim letting off the throttle mid corner caused TTO, however in project cars it just creates a slight oversteer that is easily controllable. Has anyone else been able to get TTO?

Also has anyone got any effect in the FFB that tells you when you are on the edge of grip? In GTR2 the steering goes light which is realistic but in project cars there is very little change in steering as far as I can tell. Has anyone found differently?
 
I think you mean "Lift off oversteer". Lots of cars are set up not to have much/any lift off oversteer. I do find it PCARs though. Even in some of the easy GT3 cars. The standard setup of the G55 GT3 will give you some. The little Caterhams will bite as well.
 
BigJimmy
I think you mean "Lift off oversteer". Lots of cars are set up not to have much/any lift off oversteer. I do find it PCARs though. Even in some of the easy GT3 cars. The standard setup of the G55 GT3 will give you some. The little Caterhams will bite as well.
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Both are its name, depends who you ask. Also the problem is that nothing gives it in a realistic manner.For example the Formula cars should have it, but if you just lift of you only get a little turn in which is unrealistic. TTO spins you backwards not just makes you turn a little tighter. I also find it hard to believe that every car has had it tuned out perfectly completely like is essentially the case.For example virtually all Mid engined cars should have a fairly serious issue with it due to how their centre of gravity works.
 
revhead_1000
but it shouldn't require a setup change, it should be part of the actual car physics given the sim claim.
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The default setups, especially the differential settings, were tuned to be easier controllable with a gamepad (because the vast majority of players doesn't have a wheel).
Reduce the limited slip deceleration lock and you should get more off throttle oversteer.
 
revhead_1000
but it shouldn't require a setup change, it should be part of the actual car physics given the sim claim.
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Look, PCARS fails misserably in many aspects as a sim. The way tyres react to camber and pressure changes is ridiculous, the wear rate of the soft compounds is usually too small, overheating does nothing to engine, brakes or tyres, intermediate tyres are useless in many classes, long etc.

But I don´t think you´re looking at a real problem here. The setup section is meant to make whatever changes to balance you deem correct. If you want a car that has a very strong fron end when you coast, you can have it. If you want something a bit more planted, you can have it.

Motorsport teams try to give their drivers a balanced car, not a death-trap that explodes when they coast. Because there will be some long radius corners where they´ll HAVE TO coast a bit in the middle.
 
revhead_1000
Both are its name, depends who you ask. Also the problem is that nothing gives it in a realistic manner.For example the Formula cars should have it, but if you just lift of you only get a little turn in which is unrealistic.
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No its not.

Oversteer is not simply large angle stuff, any time the rear tyre yaw rate is greater than the front tyre yaw rate a car is oversteering (feel free to disagree - but keep in mind that's Skip Barbers' definition not just mine). As such if you lift and the front turns in, the car is oversteering.


revhead_1000
TTO spins you backwards not just makes you turn a little tighter.
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No it doesn't, see above.

revhead_1000
I also find it hard to believe that every car has had it tuned out perfectly completely like is essentially the case.
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Why? Its more than possible in reality.

revhead_1000
For example virtually all Mid engined cars should have a fairly serious issue with it due to how their centre of gravity works.
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Its not even remotely that simply. A mid point CoG will give a car a greater Polar Moment, but that alone is not enough to automatically mean its a fairly serious issue. Suspension type (swing axle = bad, multi link = good), layout (roll centre location, roll bar set-up), wheelbase (long = good, short = bad), track width (wider = good, narrow = bad), track width offset (the wider the rear in comparison the better), tyre width (front and rear and the relationship between the two), CoG height (low = good, high = bad) and many other factors all affect how serious the degree of lift off oversteer is and all can (to a degree) be changed to affect how a car behaves in relation to lift off oversteer.

Now PCars doesn't get it perfectly right (AC is better in this regard), but its not as bad as claimed and SMS were quite open from the beginning about the fact that the default set-up on all cars was as neutral as possible to act as a kind of 'assist' for pad users.


dyr_gl
Look, PCARS fails misserably in many aspects as a sim. The way tyres react to camber and pressure changes is ridiculous, the wear rate of the soft compounds is usually too small, overheating does nothing to engine, brakes or tyres, intermediate tyres are useless in many classes, long etc.
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While I would agree that Pcars is not perfect (yet to find the sim that is) I wouldn't say 'fails miserably' and certainly I have had engines blow due to overheating, brakes overheat and increase braking distance (road cars suffer from this far more) and tyres overheat and become very, very tricky as a result.


dyr_gl
Motorsport teams try to give their drivers a balanced car, not a death-trap that explodes when they coast.
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Exactly. No such thing as a 'correct' set-up exists for a race car and I don't really blame SMS for going for a neutral/understeer bias as a starting point. A team will try and set a car up to suit (as much as possible) the style and preference of the driver.

dyr_gl
Because there will be some long radius corners where they´ll HAVE TO coast a bit in the middle.
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Or hold a constant throttle.
 
Scaff
No its not.
While I would agree that Pcars is not perfect (yet to find the sim that is) I wouldn't say 'fails miserably' and certainly I have had engines blow due to overheating, brakes overheat and increase braking distance (road cars suffer from this far more) and tyres overheat and become very, very tricky as a result.
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Of course the possibility is there. What I say is that it takes something really insane to make that stuff happen.

I´ve seen oil temps hit 135 Cº with no consequences. I´ve seen carbon brakes hit 1200 Cº in every big braking zones with no consequences. I´ve seen the soft tyres at 140Cº behave better than the hard ones at 105Cº. And then to make it worse you pit and get new brakes and engine for free, from the same mechanics that take 20 seconds to complete a normal stop :crazy:

And don´t get me started on gearbox and engine damage down to rapidfire downshifting. Again, same issue. Damage IS there but you NEED to go to a very short gear from top speed for something to happen at all.



This guy could spend all day driving like this and nothing would happen to him. Which is nonsense. I think that fail defines pretty well how the game performs in these areas, we´ll have to disagree there:cheers:
 
dyr_gl
Of course the possibility is there. What I say is that it takes something really insane to make that stuff happen.

I´ve seen oil temps hit 135 Cº with no consequences. I´ve seen carbon brakes hit 1200 Cº in every big braking zones with no consequences. I´ve seen the soft tyres at 140Cº behave better than the hard ones at 105Cº. And then to make it worse you pit and get new brakes and engine for free, from the same mechanics that take 20 seconds to complete a normal stop :crazy:

And don´t get me started on gearbox and engine damage down to rapidfire downshifting. Again, same issue. Damage IS there but you NEED to go to a very short gear from top speed for something to happen at all.



This guy could spend all day driving like this and nothing would happen to him. Which is nonsense. I think that fail defines pretty well how the game performs in these areas, we´ll have to disagree there:cheers:
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Just to note the "No its not" wasn't in reply to your post, as such I'm not sure why you included it, but I would appreciate it if you would remove it. It changes the tone of my reply to you in a manner that is very unrepresentative.

My point was not that its perfectly realistic (it's not and I said exactly that) but that the statement that overheating does nothing is simply not true, it does. Now it may not do it in a manner that 100% mirrors reality (quite clearly it doesn't), but its simply not accurate to say that it does nothing. Would I like the option to run it with more realistic consequences? Yes I personally would, but as it stands right now, nothing better in that regard exists on console.
 
No harm intended mate, I highlighted the bit I wanted to remove and that bit slipped above the cut. My bad :P

On the topic, I do think that the current situation is well described by "it does nothing", because it simply doesn´t come into play.

- Running overheated brakes won´t lenghten braking distances because you´ll get new ones next stop if you want.
- Running overheated tyres won´t force you to switch to a harder compound, you just run the overheated soft and go faster for the full stint anyway.
- Running an overheating engine doesn´t cost you horsepower, it just blows if you reach a -ridiculously high- limit, plus you can run a very high wastegate pressure because you can get a new engine each stop.
- Gearbox damage doesn´t come into play during normal driving, you are not penalized for constant red-line downshifting, you simply blow up if your finger slips 5 times in a row.

It´s a bit like flatspots. You notice the effect is coded in there if you run 7x wear and lockup all the time on purpose... but how does that help at all during races? For practical purposes there are no flatspots in the game. Same idea for the overheating detail. Sure, it´s coded in there but it does nothing at all, it doesn´t change the races in any way.
 
Scaff
No its not.

Oversteer is not simply large angle stuff, any time the rear tyre yaw rate is greater than the front tyre yaw rate a car is oversteering (feel free to disagree - but keep in mind that's Skip Barbers' definition not just mine). As such if you lift and the front turns in, the car is oversteering.



No it doesn't, see above.


Why? Its more than possible in reality.


Its not even remotely that simply. A mid point CoG will give a car a greater Polar Moment, but that alone is not enough to automatically mean its a fairly serious issue. Suspension type (swing axle = bad, multi link = good), layout (roll centre location, roll bar set-up), wheelbase (long = good, short = bad), track width (wider = good, narrow = bad), track width offset (the wider the rear in comparison the better), tyre width (front and rear and the relationship between the two), CoG height (low = good, high = bad) and many other factors all affect how serious the degree of lift off oversteer is and all can (to a degree) be changed to affect how a car behaves in relation to lift off oversteer.

Now PCars doesn't get it perfectly right (AC is better in this regard), but its not as bad as claimed and SMS were quite open from the beginning about the fact that the default set-up on all cars was as neutral as possible to act as a kind of 'assist' for pad users.



While I would agree that Pcars is not perfect (yet to find the sim that is) I wouldn't say 'fails miserably' and certainly I have had engines blow due to overheating, brakes overheat and increase braking distance (road cars suffer from this far more) and tyres overheat and become very, very tricky as a result.



Exactly. No such thing as a 'correct' set-up exists for a race car and I don't really blame SMS for going for a neutral/understeer bias as a starting point. A team will try and set a car up to suit (as much as possible) the style and preference of the driver.


Or hold a constant throttle.
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Umm yes it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer

And yes I am aware that it is not just wide angle stuff but TTO occurs when the car is at peak grip at which point letting off the throttle does cause large angle stuff. In fact it is demonstrated that this is the case in the Skip Barber by iRacing.

And no it is not possible in reality to completely remove it, it can only be minimised and in some cars, mostly midengined it can never be removed for example the toyota MR2. On top of that many of the cars in Pcars have the bad suspension and don't oversteer and they are the ones where the methods you would use to counter oversteer can't be applied.

And yeah project cars compared to other sims I have played is very poorly done. The FFB is lacklustre, there is no indication of brake rivbration in the steering, no steering getting light in cars when reaching peak grip except for one car so far (and that is what happens in real life). So yeah as a sim it is kinda bad.

But fair point about the alteration for pad users, though I find it unrealistic that all 100+ cars can be tuned so perfectly so that the throttle input has no effect on the grip levels at max grip like it does in Pcars.

@Scaff

I think you need to take some midengined cars to the skid pad, take them to max grip and lift of the throttle immediately, in all the cars I tested you just turn slightly tighter, and this happens with ALL cars (even the renault clio) with no consequences regardless of downforce or layout which is a joke.

Here is a video showing it happening in real life in an S2000:
 
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Animera
There must be something wrong with my MR2 then. It's never tried to kill me or spin around.
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Its only at the peak of grip, its not an issue if you aren't pushing it to the limit.

And for the record I know multiple people who both have driven/owned MR2's and are race drivers and they both say the exact same thing.
 
revhead_1000
Umm yes it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer
What oversteer is only wide angle stuff?

That's what my 'no its not' was in reference to.



revhead_1000
And yes I am aware that it is not just wide angle stuff but TTO occurs when the car is at peak grip at which point letting off the throttle does cause large angle stuff. In fact it is demonstrated that this is the case in the Skip Barber by iRacing.
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A point I didn't contest, what I said was that oversteer is not only wide angle stuff.


revhead_1000
And no it is not possible in reality to completely remove it, it can only be minimised and in some cars, mostly midengined it can never be removed for example the toyota MR2. On top of that many of the cars in Pcars have the bad suspension and don't oversteer and they are the ones where the methods you would use to counter oversteer can't be applied.
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I'm not only referring to mid engined cars (or for that matter front mid engined either), I'm referring to cars period and yes it is possible to tune it to such a degree that all you get is a mild tightening of the line (in comparison to an attempt to kill). I know because I've worked on the product launch for a number of such cars and driven them in that manner when developing product launch training for them.


revhead_1000
And yeah project cars compared to other sims I have played is very poorly done. The FFB is lacklustre, there is no indication of brake rivbration in the steering, no steering getting light in cars when reaching peak grip except for one car so far (and that is what happens in real life). So yeah as a sim it is kinda bad.
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On console (as I said before) I disagree, but from my brief experience with AC on PC that will be better when it hits console.

However I have experience all of the above in PCars, the pain with Pcars is that you have to tune the FFB for each car to get it.


revhead_1000
But fair point about the alteration for pad users, though I find it unrealistic that all 100+ cars can be tuned so perfectly so that the throttle input has no effect on the grip levels at max grip like it does in Pcars.
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I didn't say it was either perfect or even 100% realistic, which is how you have chosen to read my post.

My point was (and remains) that your definition of LOO in the real world being every car will attempt to kill you is simply not true (and as someone who grew up with early '90s hot hatches I have a lot of experience of ones that will).

revhead_1000
@Scaff

I think you need to take some midengined cars to the skid pad, take them to max grip and lift of the throttle immediately, in all the cars I tested you just turn slightly tighter, and this happens with ALL cars (even the renault clio) with no consequences regardless of downforce or layout which is a joke.
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I think you should be wary of assuming what people have and have not had experience at; also you shoudl be wary of reading what you want into peoples posts rather than actually reading what has been posted.
 
Scaff
What oversteer is only wide angle stuff?

That's what my 'no its not' was in reference to.




A point I didn't contest, what I said was that oversteer is not only wide angle stuff.



I'm not only referring to mid engined cars (or for that matter front mid engined either), I'm referring to cars period and yes it is possible to tune it to such a degree that all you get is a mild tightening of the line (in comparison to an attempt to kill). I know because I've worked on the product launch for a number of such cars and driven them in that manner when developing product launch training for them.



On console (as I said before) I disagree, but from my brief experience with AC on PC that will be better when it hits console.

However I have experience all of the above in PCars, the pain with Pcars is that you have to tune the FFB for each car to get it.



I didn't say it was either perfect or even 100% realistic, which is how you have chosen to read my post.

My point was (and remains) that your definition of LOO in the real world being every car will attempt to kill you is simply not true (and as someone who grew up with early '90s hot hatches I have a lot of experience of ones that will).


I think you should be wary of assuming what people have and have not had experience at; also you shoudl be wary of reading what you want into peoples posts rather than actually reading what has been posted.
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But not all cars can be tuned without replacing parts, which you can't do in Pcars. BTW what do you do as work since you work on cars if you don't mind me asking? And fair enough you clearly are someone who knows what they are talking about, I am just aware that there are still some cars in particular the yellow bird in Pcars which other people have had the exact same complaint about (see link from previous post). But yes I accept that the majority of the cars seem to have it tuned out and that

But not all cars can be tuned without replacing parts, which you can't do in Pcars. Also the fact that there is ZERO consequence in the game of litfing off the Throttle. Even if stuff is tuned out it is not possible for all the cars to have Lift off tuned out as not all of them have completely changeable suspension genomics (i Feel like that phrase may not have made any sense).

BTW what do you do as work since you work on cars if you don't mind me asking?

And fair enough you clearly are someone who knows what they are talking about, I am just aware that there are still some cars in particular the yellow bird in Pcars which other people have had the exact same complaint about (see link from previous post). But yes I accept that the majority of the cars seem to have it tuned out and that that is a possibility. However does it not seem suspicious that all the cars are like this, even those that are known to have issue with lift off oversteer? And I am talking about cars in general, I just used mid engined as an example because there are numerous examples of them having such an issue due to the way the car is balanced.

And no my definition is not that every car has it, I just used that as an example as that is the way most people are familiar with it being described. If you looked at my initial post I said nothing as to specifics but it in general. I then had to further describe it to another person who did not seem to understand what I was talking about.Though I realise I could have been clearer about it and the way i described it was a little misleading.

As for me supposedly reading what I want, no I didn't, you discussed things that are not entirely physics based but limit based, e.g. reving the engine at max revs for >65 seconds = engine blown. What I am discussing is the physics of how the car handles base on suspension and weight transfer, not tolerances which are easily done without physics in the game programming.

Also If you read the link I posted you will see that others have the exact same issue, so I'm clearly not going on about something thats imaginary.
 
revhead_1000
But not all cars can be tuned without replacing parts, which you can't do in Pcars. BTW what do you do as work since you work on cars if you don't mind me asking? And fair enough you clearly are someone who knows what they are talking about, I am just aware that there are still some cars in particular the yellow bird in Pcars which other people have had the exact same complaint about (see link from previous post). But yes I accept that the majority of the cars seem to have it tuned out and that

But not all cars can be tuned without replacing parts, which you can't do in Pcars. Also the fact that there is ZERO consequence in the game of litfing off the Throttle. Even if stuff is tuned out it is not possible for all the cars to have Lift off tuned out as not all of them have completely changeable suspension genomics (i Feel like that phrase may not have made any sense).

BTW what do you do as work since you work on cars if you don't mind me asking?

And fair enough you clearly are someone who knows what they are talking about, I am just aware that there are still some cars in particular the yellow bird in Pcars which other people have had the exact same complaint about (see link from previous post). But yes I accept that the majority of the cars seem to have it tuned out and that that is a possibility. However does it not seem suspicious that all the cars are like this, even those that are known to have issue with lift off oversteer? And I am talking about cars in general, I just used mid engined as an example because there are numerous examples of them having such an issue due to the way the car is balanced.

And no my definition is not that every car has it, I just used that as an example as that is the way most people are familiar with it being described. If you looked at my initial post I said nothing as to specifics but it in general. I then had to further describe it to another person who did not seem to understand what I was talking about.Though I realise I could have been clearer about it and the way i described it was a little misleading.

As for me supposedly reading what I want, no I didn't, you discussed things that are not entirely physics based but limit based, e.g. reving the engine at max revs for >65 seconds = engine blown. What I am discussing is the physics of how the car handles base on suspension and weight transfer, not tolerances which are easily done without physics in the game programming.

Also If you read the link I posted you will see that others have the exact same issue, so I'm clearly not going on about something thats imaginary.
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I've worked in the motor industry for most of my adult life, parts and service within dealerships, then as a trainer (writing, running and managing project launch and driver training) for manufacturers and I now work as a training manager for a company that supplies systems software and consultancy to both manufacturers and dealerships. I've also grown up in a petrolhead family, so its been both a job and an obsession for the best part of my 45 years on the planet.

I would quite agree that PCars doesn't get things right (again no sim does) and lift off oversteer is very moderate for the vast majority of the cars (in particular the road cars and doubly so for the Yellowbird), with the race spec cars a fair bit can be done to reintroduce it if needed, but its still not perfect (again AC models this better).

My main point was not about PCars, but rather about reality and it seems we may have been on the same page in that regard, just talking at cross purposes.
 

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