"Tranny Trick" De-bunked

[sukerkin]

Take a look here DK & RK - I think that this may be the effect you are seeing (just a guess but it sounds a similar phenomenon):

http://www.granturismobynumbers.com/ubb/Forum31/HTML/001155.html

 

[DarkKni9hT]

Ummm... Yeah... in a totally over the top, algorithmic, in depth scientific study sort of way, that'sexactly what I meant. My brain hurts now.
I guess I wasn't on pipe crack after all.

 

[Oliver DePlace]

Didn't read to whole thing, but I gathered that he's saying to move the auto slider past your intended value then return in order to get the proper ratios (didn't GT3 max out at 5.499?).

Anyway. The tranny trick gives the transmission gear-set the tightest and highest ratio package. The gear spacing is the same whether you start with a low(right slider) or high final. The individual gears will have different values, but combined with the final drive will come out the same or vary by an insignificant amount.

Example:
One is standard tranny trick with a final drive of 5.500* and Auto 1.
The other has a final drive of 2.500* and Auto1.
(these * values must be set before the auto-slider is moved.)

2.243 x 5.5 = 12.3315
1.657 x 5.5 = _9.1135
1.278 x 5.5 = _7.0290
1.027 x 5.5 = _5.6485
_.860 x 5.5 = _4.7300
_.751 x 5.5 = _4.1305

4.936 x 2.5 = 12.3400
3.646 x 2.5 = _9.1150
2.812 x 2.5 = _7.0300
2.260 x 2.5 = _5.6500
1.893 x 2.5 = _4.7325
1.652 x 2.5 = _4.1300

The top gear-set will allow a lower, usable final drive ratio.

I wonder if they coded something in GT3 that rewards putting the gear reduction as far downstream as possible (doubt it).

The tranny trick doesn't improve the performance of all cars on all tracks.
I tried matching lap times at Laguna in a Camaro using all 6 gears as opposed to gearing it to use only 5 and couldn't do it. The 5 speed was consistently faster there.

No hard and fast rules when it comes to gearing. I've alway found that test sessions, to determine the flow and what gears are used where, are very important when you're trying to find the best compromises.

Other than downforce and tires, the gearing will bring you the greatest returns.
IMO

 

[Miniklobb]

it's a simple problem that the most area under the powerband is the way to set up the gears. simple enough it's a simple math problem if your peak swept area under the power curve is narrow then you want narrow gears to use this. but in th muscle cars that have vast amounts of lowend tourqe you might even short shift or shift befor the redline to keep the car in it's power band, while going a little past to acount for the added force of easier gearing on the engine as opposed to the next gear. thats why american style cars can be great for acceleration even with four gears and reving out to 5500rpm. you just need to match the gearing to utilize the powerband thats it. and ajust final drive ratio to the track to balance low and top speed power.

 

[Oliver DePlace]

Yep, a good place to start, but you have to drive the setup to know for sure.
It might look perfect on paper, but it might not drive like it.

 

[rk]

Didn't read to whole thing, but I gathered that he's saying to move the auto slider past your intended value then return in order to get the proper ratios (didn't GT3 max out at 5.499?).

Hello, Oliver, welcome to rk's werld, er thread. Let me tell you what I just read, hmmm? "Didn't read 'the' (which?) whole thing, but I am going to respond to what I want to see; I am assuming that he (who?) is saying something about something else, and it has something to do with GT3."

Anyway. The tranny trick gives the transmission gear-set the tightest and highest ratio package. The gear spacing is the same whether you start with a low(right slider) or high final. The individual gears will have different values, but combined with the final drive will come out the same or vary by an insignificant amount.

Wrong. The "Tranny Trick" allows GT3 users inordinate amounts of acceleration and speed by accessing a "glitch" or "bug" in the physics engine which has since been plugged, no doubt removing the one glaring imperfection in GT code that was opened by creating the auto-set. What remains is a watered down version that really just jiggles the gear ratios around. If the final arrangement is tighter, then the top end suffers; if the top end is adequate, than somehow, somewhere, one or more gears is made taller to support it; and whether it provides faster acceleration is dependant on the rather arbitrary fact of it's ability to properly bracket a car's powerband.

The tranny trick doesn't improve the performance of all cars on all tracks.

To quote ZZTop: "You sure got that right."

No hard and fast rules when it comes to gearing.

Oops, actually there are, you must not have found them when you used the search feature: You want to set your final to top out near the end of the longest straight of the course you are tuning for. Then you want to run the course, carefully noting where the engine sits in relation to the powerband while exiting turns that require acceleration. You then want to alter the individual ratios such that the exit of each of the turns finds your engine squarely in the powerband, giving you the best oomph into the rest of the course. All this must be done with a constant eye to lap times and compensated to suit.

I've alway found that test sessions, to determine the flow and what gears are used where, are very important when you're trying to find the best compromises.

As have (I am sure) many of us.

 

[Oliver DePlace]

Hello, Oliver, welcome to rk's werld, er thread. Let me tell you what I just read, hmmm? "Didn't read 'the' (which?) whole thing, but I am going to respond to what I want to see; I am assuming that he (who?) is saying something about something else, and it has something to do with GT3."

Thanks for the welcome rk. 👍

The first paragraph, in my original post, was referring to sukerkin's link to GTBN.
I'm sorry you thought I was talking about GT3 when I was talking about GT4. I assumed this thread was a discussion of the gear trick as it applies to GT4. Maybe it was my reference to a possible GT3 coding problem. If so, my apologies.

Anyway. The tranny trick gives the transmission gear-set the tightest and highest ratio package. The gear spacing is the same whether you start with a low(right slider) or high final. The individual gears will have different values, but combined with the final drive will come out the same or vary by an insignificant amount.

Wrong. The "Tranny Trick" allows GT3 users inordinate amounts of acceleration and speed by accessing a "glitch" or "bug" in the physics engine which has since been plugged, no doubt removing the one glaring imperfection in GT code that was opened by creating the auto-set.

I disagree with the "Wrong", bit.
The possibility of a "bug" (in GT3) was alluded to in my original post.

If the final arrangement is tighter, then the top end suffers; if the top end is adequate, than somehow, somewhere, one or more gears is made taller to support it; and whether it provides faster acceleration is dependant on the rather arbitrary fact of it's ability to properly bracket a car's powerband.

I think it goes without saying that if the gearing is too short (for adequate top speed), you have to lengthen it somewhere, regardless of their spacings.

No hard and fast rules when it comes to gearing.

Oops, actually there are, you must not have found them when you used the search feature: You want to set your final to top out near the end of the longest straight of the course you are tuning for. Then you want to run the course, carefully noting where the engine sits in relation to the powerband while exiting turns that require acceleration. You then want to alter the individual ratios such that the exit of each of the turns finds your engine squarely in the powerband, giving you the best oomph into the rest of the course. All this must be done with a constant eye to lap times and compensated to suit.

True, there are things that are a given when choosing the gears. I just meant that you can't do it without actually taking the car out onto the track.
I could propose a gearing rule: Adjust the settings until you have reached optimum performance.
Vague enough and obvious enough to be of no help and could apply to all aspects of tuning.

 

[djaft3rb3ats]

ok, rk already owned u guys and he has officially debunked the tranny trick, lets leave at that and can we close this thred already? the clear winner is rk, dont argue. peace


djaft3rb3ats

 

[DarkKni9hT]

At the risk, no the fact, of repeating myself, set the final to 3.83 or 4.11 depending on your car and preference. Let the autoset do the rest. I'm 83.7% done GT4 with a win ratio of 85.2% and those are the only to final gears I use, based on knowledge from my tuner friend and prior perfomance in GT2 and GT3.
I believe also that my test results posted earlier in this thread, though not hugely extensive, tend to lend credit to the slight advantage given to the 3.83 gear in several cars and a couple of different tracks. I would go into testing thirty more cars on all the tracks in the game, but I really don't have that much spare time, or the level of devotion to care enough. What I have said is solid and works for me.
Bottom line.... you can screw with your tranny till you are blue in the face. Eventually it boils down to outdriving your opponents. The .0281 seconds per lap that you manage to find by gearing yourself to death can be recovered in any properly taken corner. 💡 Tuning is fun, but it's about the driving folks.

 

[djaft3rb3ats]

At the risk, no the fact, of repeating myself, set the final to 3.83 or 4.11 depending on your car and preference. Let the autoset do the rest. I'm 83.7% done GT4 with a win ratio of 85.2% and those are the only to final gears I use, based on knowledge from my tuner friend and prior perfomance in GT2 and GT3.
I believe also that my test results posted earlier in this thread, though not hugely extensive, tend to lend credit to the slight advantage given to the 3.83 gear in several cars and a couple of different tracks. I would go into testing thirty more cars on all the tracks in the game, but I really don't have that much spare time, or the level of devotion to care enough. What I have said is solid and works for me.
Bottom line.... you can screw with your tranny till you are blue in the face. Eventually it boils down to outdriving your opponents. The .0281 seconds per lap that you manage to find by gearing yourself to death can be recovered in any properly taken corner. 💡

wow. lets close this thread


djaft3rb3ats

 

[DarkKni9hT]

Why?

 

[djaft3rb3ats]

omfg darkknight, need i quote MYSELF? rk has already debunked this, no one is posting in this thread but u (and me trying to close it) theres just no point to it anymore, admit defeat and play the game, everyone else has

djaft3rb3ats

 

[rk]

OK, done deal, while I support anyone's right to an opinion, and indeed welcome them at times, that is all we are offering at this point. The "big guns", those who participate in OLR, have already weighed in on the subject and no one has refuted their observations in the interim. If anyone would like to re-open the argument, please start another thread, I will read it and I will post there if I have anything pertinent to add. thank you all for your imput, it is our members that make this community strong.
Case closed.