Transgender Thread.

  • Thread starter Com Fox
  • 2,148 comments
  • 113,164 views

How many Genders do you think exist?

  • 2 (Male and Female)

    Votes: 207 49.5%

  • 3 (Male, Female and Intersex)

    Votes: 18 4.3%

  • More than 3

    Votes: 50 12.0%

  • Don't care

    Votes: 143 34.2%
  • Total voters
    418
Scaff
Jordan Peterson has thrown a big strop (what a surprise) because twitter has temp banned him for dead naming Elliot Page and calling Elliot's surgeon a criminal.

metro.co.uk

Jordan Peterson suspended from Twitter for 'hateful conduct' towards Elliot Page

The Canadian psychologist refused to delete the tweet.
metro.co.uk metro.co.uk
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It just seems so damn petty to refuse to use someone's new name. All sorts of people change their names for all sorts of reasons and it will almost always be extremely rude to refuse to use the new name - this case included. Would it even be that strange to encounter a female named Elliot, anyway? That said, I feel like the "deadnaming" term is really not helpful. To me it suggests that there's automatically shame attached to the former name/state, I think that it's usually going to be healthier to accept life as it's played out (in oneself and others) rather than identifying the journey as having a "when I was a girl" dark history as part of it.

I don't know if somehow the surgeon technically committed a criminal act but to me that would just be akin to labelling a person a criminal that attempted suicide in a time/place when/where attempting suicide was deemed a criminal act. Heartless, pointless, and in very, very poor taste, even if it turned out to be somehow technically correct.
 
LeMansAid
It just seems so damn petty to refuse to use someone's new name. All sorts of people change their names for all sorts of reasons and it will almost always be extremely rude to refuse to use the new name - this case included. Would it even be that strange to encounter a female named Elliot, anyway?
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It's clearly not difficult which makes it super obvious when someone is doing it on purpose.

LeMansAid
I feel like the "deadnaming" term is really not helpful. To me it suggests that there's automatically shame attached to the former name/state, I think that it's usually going to be healthier to accept life as it's played out (in oneself and others) rather than identifying the journey as having a "when I was a girl" dark history as part of it.
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I think most trans people would disagree with you there, being deadnamed can be very distressing and although there are some trans people who embrace their pre-transition identity they are relatively rare. It's not about them failing to embrace their "old" identity, it's that their "old" identity was just something assigned to them at birth. Once they transitioned they became who they always were, and that assigned identity is dead and gone.
 
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LeMansAid
It just seems so damn petty to refuse to use someone's new name. All sorts of people change their names for all sorts of reasons and it will almost always be extremely rude to refuse to use the new name - this case included. Would it even be that strange to encounter a female named Elliot, anyway?
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Indeed

LeMansAid
That said, I feel like the "deadnaming" term is really not helpful. To me it suggests that there's automatically shame attached to the former name/state, I think that it's usually going to be healthier to accept life as it's played out (in oneself and others) rather than identifying the journey as having a "when I was a girl" dark history as part of it.
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I would imagine that it's going to vary from person to person, and while it can be done accidentally, my understanding is it becomes undeniably problematic (and potentially harmful) when used deliberately and maliciously. It's the difference between, say an aunt, being otherwise accepting of transition and accidentally using a deadname, and one who is not accepting and is doing so to deliberately upset and offend.
LeMansAid
I don't know if somehow the surgeon technically committed a criminal act but to me that would just be akin to labelling a person a criminal that attempted suicide in a time/place when/where attempting suicide was deemed a criminal act. Heartless, pointless, and in very, very poor taste, even if it turned out to be somehow technically correct.
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That I am aware of they have commited no crime and Peterson is simply projecting, he has however since walked it back (while using an odd turn of phrase).

boingboing.net

Jordan Peterson says he has "post-coital" regrets about his remarks on Elliot Page's top surgery

Twitter presence Jordan Peterson claimed that Elliot Page's top surgery and the doctor performing it was "criminal". He's now admitting he was incorrect, even as he compares such procedures to…
boingboing.net boingboing.net
 
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Scaff
That I am aware of they have commited no crime and Peterson is simply projecting, he has however since walked it back (while using an odd turn of phrase).

boingboing.net

Jordan Peterson says he has "post-coital" regrets about his remarks on Elliot Page's top surgery

Twitter presence Jordan Peterson claimed that Elliot Page's top surgery and the doctor performing it was "criminal". He's now admitting he was incorrect, even as he compares such procedures to…
boingboing.net boingboing.net
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There's not many people out there who, when having apparent regrets about something, come out and publicly compare it to something worse instead. The post-coital thing is just bizarre though.
 
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Moglet
There's not many people out there who, when having apparent regrets about something, come out and publicly compare it to something worse instead. The post-coital thing is just bizarre though.
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It's Peterson; doubling down, blaming everyone but himself, and bizarre rants are all par for the course.

It is all of course just because he's being so persecuted /s.
 
LeMansAid
That said, I feel like the "deadnaming" term is really not helpful. To me it suggests that there's automatically shame attached to the former name/state, I think that it's usually going to be healthier to accept life as it's played out (in oneself and others) rather than identifying the journey as having a "when I was a girl" dark history as part of it.
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:lol:

I snorted.
 
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Danoff
This is walking it back?

news.yahoo.com

Jordan Peterson says he would ‘rather die’ than delete his 'hateful' tweet about Elliot Page

Canadian clinical psychologist and YouTube personality Jordan Peterson said he would “rather die” than delete the tweet he posted about actor Elliot Page last month. Speaking to the National Post, Peterson, 60, said Twitter had temporarily suspended most of his account's features on June 28...
news.yahoo.com news.yahoo.com
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Reminds me of the Babylon Bee who are still locked out of their Twitter account for refusing to delete a transphobic tweet.

I don't get how a clinical psychologist with so many cited academic papers could think gender affirmation surgery was illegal.
 
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TexRex
:lol:

I snorted.
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I feel the shame should be attached to the act of denying someone's gender identity rather than the possibility that others may feel they have to self-censor. At the very least, as far as the present is concerned, to me it sounds more polite to call people by the names they've chosen, rather than pretending they still have the names assigned to them at birth. What happened in the past may be trickier but I talked about that in an earlier post.
 
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UKMikey
What happened in the past may be trickier but I talked about that in an earlier post.
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And I'll readily admit that I've had difficulty wrapping my head around it.

I think it ultimately rests on the individual to decide how to view their past before they chose to--and took steps to--live as their true self.
 
TexRex
And I'll readily admit that I've had difficulty wrapping my head around it.

I think it ultimately rests on the individual to decide how to view their past before they chose to--and took steps to--live as their true self.
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More discussion is probably needed.
 
Moglet
I think most trans people would disagree with you there, being deadnamed can be very distressing and although there are some trans people who embrace their pre-transition identity they are relatively rare. It's not about them failing to embrace their "old" identity, it's that their "old" identity was just something assigned to them at birth. Once they transitioned they became who they always were, and that assigned identity is dead and gone.
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I think it's always going to be somewhere from rude, to disgustingly malicious to deliberately use someone's old name. In addressing the word "deadnaming" (a word not invented by the perpetrators of the practice but rather by victims and allies of victims), I wanted to question whether or not it's a fair and healthy umbrella term. Do we even know that Elliot wants the Ellen-period history/name to be considered dead? I think it's an extreme and presumptuous tag to put on someone else's experience

People have lives within their life - I can understand a reformed murderer wanting to (without going into denial) view their former self as a dead stage of their life, but in a situation where a child was raised as a she but ultimately understood themselves to be a he there's not necessarily been any wrongdoing. I still wouldn't begrudge anyone that chose to actively distance themselves from their upbringing (especially if they suffered severely through the experience) but I do maintain that accepting one's journey through life is usually going to be healthier than wanting to "kill off" the past.

TexRex
I think it ultimately rests on the individual to decide how to view their past before they chose to--and took steps to--live as their true self.
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That's, to some extent, what I'm trying to put across.

ps. Not sure that I'm comfortable with having encouraged your cocaine consumption.
 
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Moglet
There's not many people out there who, when having apparent regrets about something, come out and publicly compare it to something worse instead. The post-coital thing is just bizarre though.
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For Peterson, it's weirdly tame. The man has said some far more bizarre things when musing.
 
LeMansAid
Do we even know that Elliot wants the Ellen-period history/name to be considered dead?
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Watch the first season of Umbrella Academy again. Or at least the opening credits of the first episode...
 
Famine
Watch the first season of Umbrella Academy again. Or at least the opening credits of the first episode...
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Ha, I hadn't even thought of an "umbrella term"/"Umbrella Academy" link. I know very little of the show and haven't seen any of it. Aside from the direct question of what Elliot would actually choose I was mainly making a broader point about assumptions, though. Hypocritically, I'm now making the assumption (based on you've written) that Elliot does want the "Ellen-period" "dead".
 
Famine
Watch the first season of Umbrella Academy again. Or at least the opening credits of the first episode...
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I just went and checked that out. He must have had them change the credits, because season 1 was released before he came out as trans.

Juno, not so much, the part is still credited to Ellen. I tried to take a screenshot, but apparently you can't screenshoot a Prime Video movie.
 
LeMansAid
I think it's always going to be somewhere from rude, to disgustingly malicious to deliberately use someone's old name. In addressing the word "deadnaming" (a word not invented by the perpetrators of the practice but rather by victims and allies of victims), I wanted to question whether or not it's a fair and healthy umbrella term. Do we even know that Elliot wants the Ellen-period history/name to be considered dead? I think it's an extreme and presumptuous tag to put on someone else's experience

People have lives within their life - I can understand a reformed murderer wanting to (without going into denial) view their former self as a dead stage of their life, but in a situation where a child was raised as a she but ultimately understood themselves to be a he there's not necessarily been any wrongdoing. I still wouldn't begrudge anyone that chose to actively distance themselves from their upbringing (especially if they suffered severely through the experience) but I do maintain that accepting one's journey through life is usually going to be healthier than wanting to "kill off" the past.
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I believe the term was coined within the trans community to begin with and is widely used to refer to any name that the person was previously using. Whether it's a healthy or fair term to use for everyone is too big of a question to answer; I think it's probably good enough to use it to refer to "old" names unless someone tells you that they are OK with their AGAB identity.
 
LeMansAid
I think it's always going to be somewhere from rude, to disgustingly malicious to deliberately use someone's old name. In addressing the word "deadnaming" (a word not invented by the perpetrators of the practice but rather by victims and allies of victims), I wanted to question whether or not it's a fair and healthy umbrella term. Do we even know that Elliot wants the Ellen-period history/name to be considered dead? I think it's an extreme and presumptuous tag to put on someone else's experience

People have lives within their life - I can understand a reformed murderer wanting to (without going into denial) view their former self as a dead stage of their life, but in a situation where a child was raised as a she but ultimately understood themselves to be a he there's not necessarily been any wrongdoing. I still wouldn't begrudge anyone that chose to actively distance themselves from their upbringing (especially if they suffered severely through the experience) but I do maintain that accepting one's journey through life is usually going to be healthier than wanting to "kill off" the past.
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Just because the word for a thing contains the letters D, E, A and D doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who identifies with what that term describes literally wants that piece of their life dead or killed. That may be true for some, specifically the people who chose that word and popularised it, but the experience of being referred to by your "old" name seems so universal in the trans community that I imagine it's useful to have a concise term to refer to that even if the actual word chosen doesn't necessarily literally express your emotions.

The gaming community is pretty good at using words in ways that are not strictly literal to express or describe. "Owned" does not mean you think someone was your slave. "Noob" does not mean that you think someone is new. "AFK" doesn't necessarily mean that there's a keyboard involved at all, or even that you're physically separated from your control device. And so on. I think we can probably understand how this works for trans people.

If you must have a literalistic way of reading the word, then you can also look at it as a name that is dead - that old name is no longer living and descriptive. It describes the person that was, not the person who is now. Just because someone or something (in this case a name) is dead doesn't mean you have to forget them or necessarily wanted to kill them. Their passing may have been part of the natural order of things. This requires that you read the word as "deadname"-ing rather than dead-naming.

Ultimately, it's a useful word and interrogating the specific elements that make up that word sort of misses the point. Is it worth questioning whether an opponent in CoD really thinks you sleep with your mother, or is it worth simply accepting that they're using a slightly bizarrely worded slur and understanding that they just want to insult you? As long as you understand the meaning it doesn't really matter that much how a word is spelled.
 
Imari
Just because the word for a thing contains the letters D, E, A and D doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who identifies with what that term describes literally wants that piece of their life dead or killed. That may be true for some, specifically the people who chose that word and popularised it, but the experience of being referred to by your "old" name seems so universal in the trans community that I imagine it's useful to have a concise term to refer to that even if the actual word chosen doesn't necessarily literally express your emotions.

The gaming community is pretty good at using words in ways that are not strictly literal to express or describe. "Owned" does not mean you think someone was your slave. "Noob" does not mean that you think someone is new. "AFK" doesn't necessarily mean that there's a keyboard involved at all, or even that you're physically separated from your control device. And so on. I think we can probably understand how this works for trans people.

If you must have a literalistic way of reading the word, then you can also look at it as a name that is dead - that old name is no longer living and descriptive. It describes the person that was, not the person who is now. Just because someone or something (in this case a name) is dead doesn't mean you have to forget them or necessarily wanted to kill them. Their passing may have been part of the natural order of things. This requires that you read the word as "deadname"-ing rather than dead-naming.

Ultimately, it's a useful word and interrogating the specific elements that make up that word sort of misses the point. Is it worth questioning whether an opponent in CoD really thinks you sleep with your mother, or is it worth simply accepting that they're using a slightly bizarrely worded slur and understanding that they just want to insult you? As long as you understand the meaning it doesn't really matter that much how a word is spelled.
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I kind of agree with you, and I think that there's plenty of examples where terms should be distanced from their literal meanings. I'm fairly sure that we've interacted in the past on here regarding sayings like "gentleman's agreement" and "knife to a gunfight", noting that those can still logically apply when there's no actual men or guns involved.

This one, for me, is more similar to the term "slut shaming", though. I've never understood why the defence of someone's sexual activity would refer to them using a word almost exclusively used as a pejorative. Anyway, I'll choose to say something more like "disrespectfully used their old name" over "deadnamed them" just as, for the sake of who I'm defending, I won't use "slut shamed them". I don't know, maybe I'm just being weird about it for no good reason.
 
RESHIRAM5
Issues Trans Men face isn't really talked about as often as it should be, because of **** like this.
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The irrational fear of penises in women's restrooms has come up in this thread. This man doesn't even have one. (That he doesn't have one and the moral panic surrounding transgender restroom use is likely why he was instructed to use the restroom that most corresponds to his genitalia.)
TexRex
"What's so bad about a penis?"

A penis doesn't pose a threat in and of itself, and while one who has malicious intent may possess a penis, the penis they possess is a rather impractical implement with which to do harm.

Though, to be fair, some penises may be more effective implements than others. Wink, wink; nudge, nudge.

Still, a knife would be more effective. Or a metal bar. Or a whole frozen fish. Or a live cat, flailed by its tail. None of these things must be wielded by an individual who possesses a penis.
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I'm a man. I have a penis. The penis I have is the one I've had from birth. I maintain I'm not a legitimate threat in any environment due to my being a man or my possessing a penis. Any suggestion that I am a threat because of either or both of these factors is sexist.
 
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