Transition from Gran Turismo to real life, things you need to be aware of. (Updated poll 7/27!)

[Ettick]

I need to drive on it again then. But its still amazing how good a 16 year old game is. Shows that you dont need a ton of processing power for a good racing sim.


I think simraceway is also based on rfactors physics, and that game is the real spinning simulator.

I have never played simraceway but I haven't heard many good things about it.

 

[sk8er913]

I have never played simraceway but I haven't heard many good things about it.

I heard a few good things about it, and I played it with a controller before. So my expectations were a little too high. Its worth a download because its free though. Just if you plan on using FFB its going to take awhile lol.

 

[OdeFinn]

Its not me, its the people in this thread.

Btw having driven for nearly 3 hours in the 4 hours of Tsukuba, I know its probably spelled incorrectly. I have decided that I didn't give GT enough credit when I originally created this thread, because today I heard the noise that represented what I originally ranted about not being there. It is indeed tgere, but you can't feel it. There is no acknowledgement from the wheel that you are bouncing. Just the sound of the RPMs oscillating. I'm glad im able to change my vote after having experienced it in game.

Could someone with more experience try to explain to me whats happening and how I can minimize its effect as a driver?


This is approximately the same as what I do. Hear the bouncing/oscillating in the corners? What can I do to minimize that, it slows me down and is very stressful to my pressure points in the seat.

Looks like the tires are on a slippery surface not asphalt and slip angle is not working.
Maybe you can try to reduce rear tyres pressure. Tyres need to grip the surface and this slippery surface should require lower pressures.
If you can, try some ballast in the front.

Would prefer totally opposite, more pressure to rear, solid rear axle, no differential, inner wheel jumps because of higher speed than traveled distance on good grip surface. (Some corners can be also opposite tire, cause of slower speed, depends where your mass is)
Increasing pressure rear makes it slide smoother, you just have to find amount of wanted/needed slide on rear. Practically you make less grip to rear, but only that much at it helps you maintain speed and driving lines.

Crazy drivers who just want keep maximum grip can bend body to outer side on curve, and by that lifting inner rear a bit, reducing contact there, avoiding that jumping.

Edit: rent kart, then if you don't have possibility to change pressure on tires then just throw it harder in corner to break traction bit more and push harder throttle. Small opposite turn before throw in makes it easier.

 

[sk8er913]

So what were the problems with FFB in GT6? I would say that its too smooth on the straight.

 

[Robbks]

A lot of users had issues with the wheel see-sawing when going straight if they weren't holding it tight enough.
But that's just an issue with how FFB operates generally,
the motors need some Force acting on them to be able to provide Feedback to the driver.

As you say driving in a dead straight line, on a flat track, the wheel does go light in the centre when there's no bump or yaw forces acting on it.

An inherent design issue, not a game issue

 

[Ettick]

A lot of users had issues with the wheel see-sawing when going straight if they weren't holding it tight enough.
But that's just an issue with how FFB operates generally,
the motors need some Force acting on them to be able to provide Feedback to the driver.

As you say driving in a dead straight line, on a flat track, the wheel does go light in the centre when there's no bump or yaw forces acting on it.

An inherent design issue, not a game issue

No other game I've played makes the wheel move back and forth nearly as much as GT6. In fact, that effect is basically nonexistent in most PC sims I've played.

 

[Mike_grpA]

No other game I've played makes the wheel move back and forth nearly as much as GT6. In fact, that effect is basically nonexistent in most PC sims I've played.

It was even worse in GT5 too.

 

[sk8er913]

No other game I've played makes the wheel move back and forth nearly as much as GT6. In fact, that effect is basically nonexistent in most PC sims I've played.

In sims based on rFactor there is a wheel setting called occelation magnitude that fixes it.


So are we all agreed that the main problem is a lack of meaningful bumps that disallows the feeling of the road? I have noticed that vibrations in the wheel vibrate your whole body and can simulate much more than just steering.

 

[RobbiefromBC]

Probably the biggest issue I have with GT6 and it's 'realism' is that fact that the steering is waaay too light and forgiving in places it shouldn't be. when I'm cornering in my race car, the wheel's fighting me and I can feel every single bump on the road through a corner, whereas in Gran Turismo I might get the odd gear chatter from the internals of my G27. I don't expect it to be 100% as close as possible to the real thing, but maybe a little more effort on wheel kickback and feeling through the wheel would be much appreciated.

 

[sk8er913]

Updated:

- New section: Forcefeed back dynamics are poor
- Updated poll results expect a new poll soon.


Do you agree with my new section? Have any changes for me to make to it? Let me know. What would you like to see a poll about?

 

[cjr3559]

Probably the biggest issue I have with GT6 and it's 'realism' is that fact that the steering is waaay too light and forgiving in places it shouldn't be. when I'm cornering in my race car, the wheel's fighting me and I can feel every single bump on the road through a corner, whereas in Gran Turismo I might get the odd gear chatter from the internals of my G27. I don't expect it to be 100% as close as possible to the real thing, but maybe a little more effort on wheel kickback and feeling through the wheel would be much appreciated.

Agree, however GT5 still has the wheel weight but lacks in feeling fine road nuances (bumps, curbs, tire slip). GT6 is just the opposite.

 

[Thematic]

(I find) Suspension settings make a big difference to FFB. I think the existing FFB options - two values - can't make you feel all the bumps with, say, a default / stock AE86. If they do that's with specific hardware.

 

[sk8er913]

Agree, however GT5 still has the wheel weight but lacks in feeling fine road nuances (bumps, curbs, tire slip). GT6 is just the opposite.

I think the vibration on the curbs feels good though, tire slip is there, I can feel it..

 

[Ettick]

I think that GT6 has more vibration from curbs than most other games in fact.

 

[sk8er913]

I think that GT6 has more vibration from curbs than most other games in fact.

I haven't touched curbs in real life before, but I would expect them to vibrate like that, because curbs have rough surfacing.

 

[Venny_]

the violent af snap when you try to counter steer

 

[RobbiefromBC]

The kerbs are pretty realistic in GT6, in the sense that you find out pretty quick which ones you want to hit, and the ones you don't

 

[Robbks]

Distinguishing "Kerbs" from "Rumble Strips" is also important in what feedback to expect

 

[sk8er913]

the violent af snap when you try to counter steer

I experienced that in real life in both a kart and an e90 BMW. Or at least I think I feel it.

The kerbs are pretty realistic in GT6, in the sense that you find out pretty quick which ones you want to hit, and the ones you don't

Nurburgring 24H? None of the curbs are happy curbs.

 

[RobbiefromBC]

I experienced that in real life in both a kart and an e90 BMW. Or at least I think I feel it.




Nurburgring 24H? None of the curbs are happy curbs.

Must be hitting the wrong ones then

 

[sk8er913]

Must be hitting the wrong ones then

Depends a lot on your ride height and spring rate.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I haven't really read through the thread but I've read the OP and I'd like to add my two cents. I'm not a racing driver but I don't consider myself a poor or inexperienced driver.

1: Lift off oversteer. I'm sure this dead horse has been beaten a million times before, but I'm going to mention it again. Lift off oversteer was the only thing in real life that GT didn't prepare me for. When induced purposefully it's quite fun, but when it's unexpected it's important to know what to do. I nearly spun my parents' car (Honda Fit, 2nd gen USDM) on a very cold day when I lifted off mid corner to avoid understeering wide. The back end stepped out, and being used to oversteer only happening on a rear driven car in GT, I lifted off the throttle while overcorrecting and the back end swung the other way. I did get it under control without leaving the road or causing any damage, but it was the only time that GT's physics trained me poorly in real life. Obviously I'm not blaming GT for the incident; the fault was purely with me and my poor and immature driving, but I feel that if GT did implement realistic lift off oversteer I may have been better equipped to deal with the situation and even make it into a fun corner.

2: The sensation of speed. Again, it's been said. And this is much harder to implement in a game, I grant you. Wehnd riving at 80 mph down a tight country road, you feel as if you're going very, very fast. Even when you're doing 70 in a kart on a wide kart track, it feels incredibly fast and thrilling. In GT, anything below about 120 seems to feel fairly sedate. Part of this is because one is usually on a racetrack with few reference points, yes, but the vibrations and seat of the pants feel of speed isn't there and can't really be replicated. When I raced a Club 100 kart (2 stroke, about 75 mph top speed), the constant vibration in the chassis as a result of the engine was as wearing as anything. That's something GT will never really be able to replicate cleanly.

3: The satisfaction of shifting. This one is really just a budget thing; if I had more money I could buy a shifter and three pedal setup and have a more realistic setup, though for that money I could just buy a car. I find that the best bit of driving is the satisfaction of getting a shift just right when going into a corner. A perfect heel-toe is a great feeling, and GT isn't really able to replicate the mechanical joy of operating a car. I suppose it's not just shifting; the overall sensation is lost because it's being simulated rather than created physically.

That's pretty much it, really. GT is a surprisingly good learning tool when the above is accounted for, and it's still a great game regardless of how much whinging people do. And yes, I realise all those things have been said before many times, but I happen to agree with them.

 

[sk8er913]

I haven't really read through the thread but I've read the OP and I'd like to add my two cents. I'm not a racing driver but I don't consider myself a poor or inexperienced driver.

1: Lift off oversteer. I'm sure this dead horse has been beaten a million times before, but I'm going to mention it again. Lift off oversteer was the only thing in real life that GT didn't prepare me for. When induced purposefully it's quite fun, but when it's unexpected it's important to know what to do. I nearly spun my parents' car (Honda Fit, 2nd gen USDM) on a very cold day when I lifted off mid corner to avoid understeering wide. The back end stepped out, and being used to oversteer only happening on a rear driven car in GT, I lifted off the throttle while overcorrecting and the back end swung the other way. I did get it under control without leaving the road or causing any damage, but it was the only time that GT's physics trained me poorly in real life. Obviously I'm not blaming GT for the incident; the fault was purely with me and my poor and immature driving, but I feel that if GT did implement realistic lift off oversteer I may have been better equipped to deal with the situation and even make it into a fun corner.

2: The sensation of speed. Again, it's been said. And this is much harder to implement in a game, I grant you. Wehnd riving at 80 mph down a tight country road, you feel as if you're going very, very fast. Even when you're doing 70 in a kart on a wide kart track, it feels incredibly fast and thrilling. In GT, anything below about 120 seems to feel fairly sedate. Part of this is because one is usually on a racetrack with few reference points, yes, but the vibrations and seat of the pants feel of speed isn't there and can't really be replicated. When I raced a Club 100 kart (2 stroke, about 75 mph top speed), the constant vibration in the chassis as a result of the engine was as wearing as anything. That's something GT will never really be able to replicate cleanly.

3: The satisfaction of shifting. This one is really just a budget thing; if I had more money I could buy a shifter and three pedal setup and have a more realistic setup, though for that money I could just buy a car. I find that the best bit of driving is the satisfaction of getting a shift just right when going into a corner. A perfect heel-toe is a great feeling, and GT isn't really able to replicate the mechanical joy of operating a car. I suppose it's not just shifting; the overall sensation is lost because it's being simulated rather than created physically.

That's pretty much it, really. GT is a surprisingly good learning tool when the above is accounted for, and it's still a great game regardless of how much whinging people do. And yes, I realise all those things have been said before many times, but I happen to agree with them.

This might sound like a stupid question, but what exactly is heel and toe? Ive heard it a thousand times. But only know that its a useful racing technique that is more important in older racecars than newer ones..

The clutch and shifting in this game is terrible, I agree. I should add it to OP.

 

[RobbiefromBC]

This might sound like a stupid question, but what exactly is heel and toe? Ive heard it a thousand times. But only know that its a useful racing technique that is more important in older racecars than newer ones..

It's a technique used ultimately to create a smoother downshift during braking. While braking, you depress the clutch, select a gear, and blip the throttle with the side of your foot to match the speed of the engine with the speed of the wheels, while still applying brake pressure. Once you get the correct match, release the clutch. If done properly, you shouldn't feel the car jerk around when braking. It's a dying art form with all these new electronic gizmos floating around

 

[sk8er913]

It's a technique used ultimately to create a smoother downshift durning braking. While braking, you depress the clutch, select a gear, and blip the throttle with the side of your foot to match the speed of the engine with the speed of the wheels, while still applying brake pressure. Once you get the correct match, release the clutch. If done properly, you shouldn't feel the car jerk around when braking. It's a dying art form with all these new electronic gizmos floating around

That sounds difficult. Lol. Maybe the can have 3 or 4 different settings for different eras.

 

[RobbiefromBC]

That sounds difficult. Lol. Maybe the can have 3 or 4 different settings for different eras.

It takes some getting used to, but it becomes second nature after a while. Unfortunately, this is something GT6 isn't all that great with. When using the H pattern on my G27, I always find myself out of gear because the game doesn't register a gear change when there is even the slightest bit of throttle applied. The other issue is that the clutch slippage isn't all that great. It's not bad, but I can ride the clutch pedal while going down a straight and not notice any kind of slip, it's basically a light switch until it registers as 100% depressed.

 

[cjr3559]

This might sound like a stupid question, but what exactly is heel and toe? Ive heard it a thousand times. But only know that its a useful racing technique that is more important in older racecars than newer ones..

The clutch and shifting in this game is terrible, I agree. I should add it to OP.

Here's one of my all time favorite videos of Gan-San running the NSX Type R at the Nordschleife. An example of Heel-toe mastery. And note the sound and noticeable rumbling when he drives over the curbs.

 

[Ettick]

While on the topic of the clutch:
Sequential transmissions still use clutches but are for the most part only necessary when you're stopped and in gear. This is especially important for F1 cars since you can't start them back up yourself if you stall. However, in GT6, the clutch pedal is disabled and it's impossible to stall when you're in a car that has a sequential gearbox (or in sequential mode), so this is not simulated at all in it. I have not driven GT6 with an H-shifter and clutch much because I didn't enjoy it very much when I did (but I love driving with H-shifter in most other games).

 

[sk8er913]

While on the topic of the clutch:
Sequential transmissions still use clutches but are for the most part only necessary when you're stopped and in gear. This is especially important for F1 cars since you can't start them back up yourself if you stall. However, in GT6, the clutch pedal is disabled and it's impossible to stall when you're in a car that has a sequential gearbox (or in sequential mode), so this is not simulated at all in it. I have not driven GT6 with an H-shifter and clutch much because I didn't enjoy it very much when I did (but I love driving with H-shifter in most other games).

How does it work in a sequential? The GTR GT3 doesn't have a clutch pedal, is it a button on the steering wheel?

 

[Johnnypenso]

That sounds difficult. Lol. Maybe the can have 3 or 4 different settings for different eras.

I thought the same thing myself but like anything else, with practice it becomes second nature. Here's a good example of how it works with a sim rig. It works best of course, if the clutch is simulated properly, which it's not in GT.