Tuning options..real or not?

[lbishov1]

What tuning options mirror the real world and which do not?

 

[ryzno]

None.

 

[ALB123]

I would guess that tuning transmission gearing is accurate because that only involves some mathematics. Anything else is probably a crapshoot.

 

[Lambob]

treat them as sliders, ignore all digit info.

 

[Slottsfjellet]

I am quite new to this forum and GT6.
The tuning section looks OK to me. Info about the tuning of engine seems realistic, and stages with different turbos.
For a standard engine it is a curve for HP and torque, I cannot see why this is not put into the car, I would guess it probably is. So with a tuned engine it would probably be put in new HP-curve and torque-curve. That should be quite realistic.
Of course I am a newbie, but to me much of the tuning seems realistic. I would guess approx 50-75% realistic.

What I think is totally unrealistic is people here on the forum that wants tire pressure. And some also wants tire temperature, measured in 3 places per tire.
If this was implemented I would think 95-99% of the gamers would not be able get any benefit of it.

Perhaps I misunderstand how tuning mirrors reality, if I am I hope someone with more experience will explain it to me.

 

[lbishov1]

Maybe I should be more specific. I'm asking about suspension tunes, do they mirror real world changes?

 

[Slottsfjellet]

That is more difficult and complex.
I would guess they are quite good, as people manage to find good tunes by experimenting.
If they were totally off, it would be hard to find good tunes.
I am sure some here know a lot about this.

 

[DolHaus]

Maybe I should be more specific. I'm asking about suspension tunes, do they mirror real world changes?

The basic principals used in real world suspension tuning apply in game for the most part, some elements are a little bit odd but are easy enough to work with.

 

[Dave_87]

What I think is totally unrealistic is people here on the forum that wants tire pressure. And some also wants tire temperature, measured in 3 places per tire.
If this was implemented I would think 95-99% of the gamers would not be able get any benefit of it.

That's been in Forza Motorsport for some time and can be very useful to ensure you are getting the optimal amount of tyre on the road at all times. The figures you use to set a car up completely change the second the car starts to move due to suspension compression, steering angle etc, so you may think your tyre is running XX.X amount of degrees camber when static, but in reality its always different. On GT6 it could be very helpful when setting up cars for the 'endurance' races to ensure the maximum tyre life.

 

[Slottsfjellet]

That's been in Forza Motorsport for some time and can be very useful to ensure you are getting the optimal amount of tyre on the road at all times. The figures you use to set a car up completely change the second the car starts to move due to suspension compression, steering angle etc, so you may think your tyre is running XX.X amount of degrees camber when static, but in reality its always different. On GT6 it could be very helpful when setting up cars for the 'endurance' races to ensure the maximum tyre life.

What you say I think underlines what I mean, this is complex.
I understand what you are saying and why you think it is a good idea. My reservation is due to that I think PD have to simplify very much to get something that can run on a PS3, secondly I am not capable of finding the correct pressure for all times on varying cars.

To complicate it even further is not a good idea. Tire pressure is also very complicated. Too much pressure will give too little contact area and at the same time it will make tire more rigid sideways as is desired. Lowering pressure will give better contact at the same time too little will build up heat in tire and increase wear quite much.
Too much pressure can also stiffen the suspension to make it worse handling. All this is not linear and happening at different tire pressures, so while you might get better contact area the car might wobble and wear is dramatic.

What you say is of course correct, but it is also limits to what can be programmed and modelled in PS3 and I would think suspension variables (once set) is static in PS3.
I would think that optimum tire pressure is modelled, optimum contact area,no bad effect from tire to suspension and optimum vertical rigidity.

If you look at rerun of cars in GT6 you will see that it is not 100% realistic movement, I would guess simplified models are used for lots of things.

Just my 2 cents, but I would prefer some things are not up to the user.

 

[JohnyPiston]

Really, I do not know, but maybe I live in sort of dream reality. For me the tuning options work as they should. I am using two references: Firstly about a year ago I got the book "High-Performance Handling for Street or Track" by Don Alexander. Using his recommendations for Camber, Toe, Ride Height and Roll Bar settings seems to work as intended for me in GT6 ...especially for FF cars. My second reference is years of RC racing and modern day RC cars have adjustable suspension geometry that is about identical to what you would find in bespoke real life race cars. They have tuning options that go way beyond what any game can offer. Again, Camber, Toe, Ride Height and Roll Bar adjustments work in GT6 as they do in my high end RC cars.

The problem with GT is the limited tuning options. There is no Ackerman, Caster and Roll Center adjustment possibilities and ofcourse, no tyre pressure adjustments. Because of this, adjustments to the handling seems to happen in isolation. Changing your ride height in GT6 for example changes your roll center (by placing it higher) but the physics engine does not then recalculate the effect that your current camber setting will have on the car with the higher ride height. Because of this, I think many people say the whole thing does not work.

But the bottom line is if you want more steering you can get it in GT6 by changing the front spring settings or the roll stiffness. If you want the rear to be more planted you can get this in the same way ...but at the cost of some steering. That is another thing GT6 does fairly well - if you get more steering, the rear will be slightly "light". Get the rear more planted and the car seems to understeer more. Again, maybe I am dreaming but at this basic level for me the game seems to work as it should in terms of suspension adjustments ...if you consider the fact that a lot of needed options are missing.

Another thing is the driver. No amount of tuning will help the late braker, and the guy with the heavy right foot coming out of corners. Also, no amount of suspension changes will be detected by drivers who are not able to be consistent. You need to be able to take a car out to a track, hit a number of laps and have most of those be within hundredths of a second from each other. Overall your fast laps should not be greater than a second from each other. Get this consistency and you will notice changes to chamber, toe, ride height and so on.

This is just my 2 cents but I admit that all in all, we have inferior suspension geometry modelling in GT6. However, for me it is more than acceptable for a game. Ultimately high performance handling is about managing the balance of the car and, by doing so, affecting how much of the tyres at all four corners are in contact with the ground. GT6 does the balance thing very nicely ...but leaves the player no way of knowing what is happening at those four corners. The only way I can know is by putting it on the track and putting in those consistent laps. The clock never lies.

 

[ALB123]

Really, I do not know, but maybe I live in sort of dream reality. For me the tuning options work as they should. I am using two references: Firstly about a year ago I got the book "High-Performance Handling for Street or Track" by Don Alexander. Using his recommendations for Camber, Toe, Ride Height and Roll Bar settings seems to work as intended for me in GT6 ...especially for FF cars. My second reference is years of RC racing and modern day RC cars have adjustable suspension geometry that is about identical to what you would find in bespoke real life race cars. They have tuning options that go way beyond what any game can offer. Again, Camber, Toe, Ride Height and Roll Bar adjustments work in GT6 as they do in my high end RC cars.

Are you saying that from day one you were using Camber in your GT6 tunes with positive results? From my own experiences and from what I read on this forum Camber was not working properly at all for many months. This was evident by considerable loss in cornering grip and severely reduced lap times even when applying very conservative amounts of camber.

Changing your ride height in GT6 for example changes your roll center (by placing it higher) but the physics engine does not then recalculate the effect that your current camber setting will have on the car with the higher ride height. Because of this, I think many people say the whole thing does not work.

When you say "roll center", I'm assuming your speaking about the vehicle's center of gravity. While I can't speak with 100% certainty on the effects it has on the applied camber, I would dispute the assertion that changing the center of gravity has zero effect on the rolling stability of the vehicle. It most certainly does. Perhaps that's not what you meant, but again, I have mainly stayed away from the Camber setting because GT6, for the most part, has not implemented Camber properly. I know there is a lot of debate on the effectiveness of using Camber in the most recent updates - many people believe it is working much better now, but I still don't believe it works exactly as it should.

Another thing is the driver. No amount of tuning will help the late braker, and the guy with the heavy right foot coming out of corners. Also, no amount of suspension changes will be detected by drivers who are not able to be consistent. You need to be able to take a car out to a track, hit a number of laps and have most of those be within hundredths of a second from each other. Overall your fast laps should not be greater than a second from each other. Get this consistency and you will notice changes to chamber, toe, ride height and so on.

I agree completely. While I am not a top driver I do alright and I have a very good understanding of physics in general and racing methodology. It is amazing how many people refuse to subscribe to simple notions like "slow in, fast out". While I don't spend a lot of time racing online, I have seen it in just about every race I've participated in online in public rooms. Dive bombers who plow through the apex and then get passed by the smooth driver who nailed his corner perfectly who then go on to complain that GT6's tire model sucks, or that's why they prefer to only use RS tires, etc... They refuse to adjust their driving style regardless of their outcome in the race. They are the same people who usually end up taking me out, plowing into me and then saying something about how slow I am and how fast they are... It's ridiculous.

I'm sure we can all agree that Gran Turismo's vehicle physics, suspension model and tire model can all be improved significantly. However, I think for a Playstation game, they do rather well to recreate a very realistic driving experience. PC Sim racing will probably always trump console Sim racing for the simple fact that they will always have more processing power, which allows for much more complex models to be enacted, and it is vastly easier to update PC software if you have an internet connection, especially if a lot of that code sits server-side rather than client-side.

 

[JohnyPiston]

I described my experience. I even included the words "I might be dreaming". Disagreement is to be expected and is acceptable. There is no need for me to defend any statement at all. After all, I have made no objective statements in anything I said. It was entirely subjective.

 

[ALB123]

I described my experience. I even included the words "I might be dreaming". Disagreement is to be expected and is acceptable. There is no need for me to defend any statement at all. After all, I have made no objective statements in anything I said. It was entirely subjective.

I wasn't doubting anything that you said. All I was doing was providing my own experiences and thoughts on how things work. Perhaps there was something I could have learned from you. Perhaps I haven't been tuning my vehicles optimally and some explanation could have pointed me in the right direction.

I'm sorry you took my statements as being critical of yours. I did not intend to come across that way. Again, sorry about that. Have a nice day...

 

[JohnyPiston]

No no no ...I am not offended at all. I just wanted to make sure I was not being forceful in what I said :-). MY apologies ... :-)

 

[DolHaus]

Really, I do not know, but maybe I live in sort of dream reality. For me the tuning options work as they should. I am using two references: Firstly about a year ago I got the book "High-Performance Handling for Street or Track" by Don Alexander. Using his recommendations for Camber, Toe, Ride Height and Roll Bar settings seems to work as intended for me in GT6 ...especially for FF cars. My second reference is years of RC racing and modern day RC cars have adjustable suspension geometry that is about identical to what you would find in bespoke real life race cars. They have tuning options that go way beyond what any game can offer. Again, Camber, Toe, Ride Height and Roll Bar adjustments work in GT6 as they do in my high end RC cars.

The problem with GT is the limited tuning options. There is no Ackerman, Caster and Roll Center adjustment possibilities and ofcourse, no tyre pressure adjustments. Because of this, adjustments to the handling seems to happen in isolation. Changing your ride height in GT6 for example changes your roll center (by placing it higher) but the physics engine does not then recalculate the effect that your current camber setting will have on the car with the higher ride height. Because of this, I think many people say the whole thing does not work.

But the bottom line is if you want more steering you can get it in GT6 by changing the front spring settings or the roll stiffness. If you want the rear to be more planted you can get this in the same way ...but at the cost of some steering. That is another thing GT6 does fairly well - if you get more steering, the rear will be slightly "light". Get the rear more planted and the car seems to understeer more. Again, maybe I am dreaming but at this basic level for me the game seems to work as it should in terms of suspension adjustments ...if you consider the fact that a lot of needed options are missing.

Another thing is the driver. No amount of tuning will help the late braker, and the guy with the heavy right foot coming out of corners. Also, no amount of suspension changes will be detected by drivers who are not able to be consistent. You need to be able to take a car out to a track, hit a number of laps and have most of those be within hundredths of a second from each other. Overall your fast laps should not be greater than a second from each other. Get this consistency and you will notice changes to chamber, toe, ride height and so on.

This is just my 2 cents but I admit that all in all, we have inferior suspension geometry modelling in GT6. However, for me it is more than acceptable for a game. Ultimately high performance handling is about managing the balance of the car and, by doing so, affecting how much of the tyres at all four corners are in contact with the ground. GT6 does the balance thing very nicely ...but leaves the player no way of knowing what is happening at those four corners. The only way I can know is by putting it on the track and putting in those consistent laps. The clock never lies.

Very well put 👍

The suspension modelling is far more complex than it was in GT5, its not perfect by a long shot but it does fit in with general tuning techniques and ideas for the most part. Changes are a lot more subtle than before and as a result you have to be extremely consistent to notice the difference at times.