turbo over superchargers?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ExigeEvan
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Originally posted by Monster7
It basically comes down to what you like.

Both can be adjusted to suit a certain powerband, or driving style.

Some downfalls to both are:

Supercharger -

1. It takes power to make power.
2. For more boost you have to change a pulley.

Turbo -

1. Extra heat generated from the turbine.
2. The larger the turbo, the more lag. Not a real problem unless you're making 600hp+.

These are extremely vague, and I don't have the time to go in depth on the rest of the downfalls/benefits of the two.
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Originally posted by neon_duke
...if you have an adjustable wastegate, which not all turbo cars have. Certainly not stock.
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Originally posted by Monster7
And will "swapping out the rear end, double adjustable shocks, or the internet" cost you $5.00 and let you adjust your boost? Nope.
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So... how is duke being misleading again? He says not all cars come with an adjustable wastegate as standard - you say he's wrong because to buy one costs $5? Doesn't sound very stock to me.

In fact, it sounds like an insurance-declarable aftermarket engine modification to me.
 
He stated "IF you have and adjustable wastegate which not all turbo cars have".

Implying "not every wastegate is adjustable..." "At least not from the factory".

If you honestly can't see whats wrong with those remarks, I suggest you take a few automotive classes.

Or you could stop by Wyotech, and ask a few techs with over 20 years of turbo experience what is wrong with them. :lol:
 
Originally posted by Monster7
And will "swapping out the rear end, double adjustable shocks, or the internet" cost you $5.00 and let you adjust your boost? Nope.
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Really? Cool. I'll drop off the wife's Jetta 1.8T at your shop and you can adjust the boost to blow a peak of 23lbs ...for $5.00.

The car should then put about 250 to the wheels... hope you have a Dynojet handy, because I will want to post a chart. The "150whp for $5 dollars upgrade."

You da man.


///M-Spec
 
Originally posted by emad
so...that was a very entertaining arguement but now...back on the original topic:

which would be a better choice? Super or Turbo? What about in horse-power limited classes like WRC? They're limited to 300 hp so wouldn't a super handle the job as well as or better than turbo/mis-fire system combo?

Also, why do drifters use turbos if there is lag? wouldn't that make high speed exits a bit awkward?
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The simple answer is: "it depends".
Do you want to make big power from idle? Do you want big power on top?
The way I have always understood it, A supercharger makes big power on an engine that already makes its power down in lower ranges. Like a V-8 over 300 Cubic Inches. Since the Supe is driven off of a belt and has a lower RPM limit, you don't want to spin it as fast as it's possible to spin a turbo.
With an exhaust driven turbo, able to spin at near unfathomable RPM, it would be more effective on engines that make power in the upper ranges. However, this is not a hard, fast rule as on some engines, with a smaller turbo, and superior engineering they can make significant power from 2,000 RPM up to Redline.

So basically it depends on what you want the Forced Induction system to do. Explain what you want to do to the person matching the system to your car and driving style, and you can have a very tractable car with either system.

I tend to lean toward supes, only because they generally don't generate as much heat as turbos. And they generally make power from idle, to as many RPM as I wanna drive. (I like big slow revving V-8, BTW).

Monster, I believe that you and duke, Have argued your way to the same conclusion. He said you must make modifications to most vehicles to have adjustable boost. You said all cars can be equipped in such a fashion to have adjustable boost. You aren't even arguing different sides of the same coin. You're arguing the same side of the same coin. Not only that, you are vehemently agreeing with each other. (In such a way that it sounds like a disagreement.)
While you may know a butt-load about forced induction, Somebody really needs to slap the **** out of your language arts teachers!!!:lol:
 
Originally posted by Gil
While you may know a butt-load about forced induction
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just a theory but maybe they really were trying to release a butload of forced induction :odd:

anyways...so basically, the supercharger is *generally* more useful on bigger engines if you go by the you need power to make power thing?
 
Originally posted by Monster7
He stated "IF you have and adjustable wastegate which not all turbo cars have".

Implying "not every wastegate is adjustable..." "At least not from the factory".

If you honestly can't see whats wrong with those remarks, I suggest you take a few automotive classes.

Or you could stop by Wyotech, and ask a few techs with over 20 years of turbo experience what is wrong with them. :lol:
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If you can't tell the difference between a totally stock car neon_duke was talking about, and a car with an aftermarket modification - regardless of cost - that you were talking about, I suggest you take a class in English Language, or buy a dictionary. And don't ever become an insurance assessor.
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Really? Cool. I'll drop off the wife's Jetta 1.8T at your shop and you can adjust the boost to blow a peak of 23lbs ...for $5.00.

The car should then put about 250 to the wheels... hope you have a Dynojet handy, because I will want to post a chart. The "150whp for $5 dollars upgrade."

You da man.


///M-Spec
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No problem, bring the car by, it should take me 10 minutes to install the bleeder valve. And I do have access to a Dynojet model 248C, I hope that is adequate for you.

3 Dyno pulls w/o a wideband will cost you $75.00. With someone like you, who has such vast tuning knowledge, you probably won't need a w.b anyways. :lol:

My job is to work on cars. Apparently Famine and Gil's jobs are to correct peoples grammar on a video game forum. Now thats a real skill...
 
Originally posted by Monster7
My job is to work on cars. Apparently Famine and Gil's jobs are to correct peoples grammar on a video game forum. Now thats a real skill...
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I wouldn't so much call it a job as a hobby.

Your whole argument was seemingly based on the fact that adjustable wastegates are stock - neon_duke's was based on the fact that they are not. Only one of you could be right - him. Now if this wasn't the basis of your argument how are we supposed to know? Nobody here is a mindreader - we can only go on the basis of what you type. Typing what you mean - now that's a real skill. One you have yet to master. But you're right up there with the swinging assumptions and baseless insults. Well done.
 
Originally posted by Famine
I wouldn't so much call it a job as a hobby.

Your whole argument was seemingly based on the fact that adjustable wastegates are stock - neon_duke's was based on the fact that they are not. Only one of you could be right - him. Now if this wasn't the basis of your argument how are we supposed to know? Nobody here is a mindreader - we can only go on the basis of what you type. Typing what you mean - now that's a real skill. One you have yet to master. But you're right up there with the swinging assumptions and baseless insults. Well done.
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Look at post #22.

Is the word *stock anywhere in that post?

Maybe you should look into getting some new glasses for your "hobby". Click me

The end.
 
Originally posted by Monster7
Look at post #22.

Is the word *stock anywhere in that post?

Maybe you should look into getting some new glasses for your "hobby". Click me

The end.
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Here's your post, #22:
Originally posted by Monster7
:rolleyes: All turbo's are adjustable..
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The word "all" means, ummm, all. Including stock. Which means your statement wasn't true.

Now, take a look at post #23, my first post, which is incidentally when the "argument" began, as I had the nerve to disagree with someone so knowledgeable as yourself:
Originally posted by neon_duke
...if you have an adjustable wastegate, which not all turbo cars have. Certainly not stock.
:rolleyes: yourself.
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Any questions? Next time, I repectfully suggest that you lose the attitude when you don't have a leg to stand on.
 
Back on the original thread, and having compared a variety of aftermarket-modified systems on various modified cars I've known, I offer this opinion:

Superchargers do seem to favor larger-displacement, RWD cars, partly for parasitic load reasons and partly because of the way the boost comes in. Superchargers make more boost right away than most turbos do. On a FWD car that tends to overwhelm the traction more easily. Turbos, even small ones, come in slightly more slowly, which means that the car begins to roll a bit before the real boost arrives. This can make them easier to launch.

Even small-bore RWD cars seem to work pretty well with a blower because of this. There are a ton of supercharged Miatas running around, for instance.
 
Originally posted by Monster7
No problem, bring the car by, it should take me 10 minutes to install the bleeder valve.
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Wrong. You'll need a lot more than a bleeder valve to put 250 on the ground with a stock 1.8T. Tell anyone who knows VWs you're running 23lbs on the stock K03 and they'll chuckle. Tell them you did it with a 5 dollar part and 10 minutes work and they'll laugh in your face.


Originally posted by Monster7
And I do have access to a Dynojet model 248C, I hope that is adequate for you.

3 Dyno pulls w/o a wideband will cost you $75.00. With someone like you, who has such vast tuning knowledge, you probably won't need a w.b anyways. :lol:
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Nope, don't need one. I meter my own A/F. I just need a sniff. :trouble:

I never claimed to have vast tuning knowledge, unlike yourself, who seems to try to remind everyone everytime you're questioned. However, I do know enough to separate the BS from the facts. And your "150whp for 5 dollars" mod is pure cow manure.


///M-Spec
 
Originally posted by Monster7

My job is to work on cars. Apparently Famine and Gil's jobs are to correct peoples grammar on a video game forum.
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I wasn't correcting your grammar, I was pointing out that you were arguing to the same conclusion.
Now, I'm correcting your grammar. (or is it usage:odd: ) Sheesh, you know how to make work for a guy!:lol:

And at the risk of pointing out the obvious, This thread is in the Automotive/Cars in General section, not the video game section.

For the record, it's okay to be wrong.
It's okay to not like having it pointed out.
But, now it's time to be a man, and admit you were wrong.
Then, Suck it up and Drive on.
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Wrong. You'll need a lot more than a bleeder valve to put 250 on the ground with a stock 1.8T. Tell anyone who knows VWs you're running 23lbs on the stock K03 and they'll chuckle. Tell them you did it with a 5 dollar part and 10 minutes work and they'll laugh in your face.




Nope, don't need one. I meter my own A/F. I just need a sniff. :trouble:

I never claimed to have vast tuning knowledge, unlike yourself, who seems to try to remind everyone everytime you're questioned. However, I do know enough to separate the BS from the facts. And your "150whp for 5 dollars" mod is pure cow manure.


///M-Spec
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Where did I say you could achieve 150whp for $5.00? And where did I say you could safely run 1.6 bar of boost? Nowhere.

Here are your own words - "I'll drop off the wife's Jetta 1.8T at your shop and you can adjust the boost to blow a peak of 23lbs"

You're an adult, I install parts and what you do with those parts is your choice.

You have an open invitation to stop by the shop if you're ever in the area.
 
Originally posted by Monster7
Where did I say you could achieve 150whp for $5.00? And where did I say you could safely run 1.6 bar of boost? Nowhere.
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That's not the point. The entire Jetta scenario was bogus to begin with. It can't be done. No one who wants serious power from a 1.8T tries to run 23 lbs on the stock K03 turbo --its too small and won't flow enough CFM for the engine. Even if you could run 23, you wouldn't get 250 whp out of it. You'd need a larger turbo like a K04 or GT25/T28, all the plumbing, gaskets and adapters, a downpipe, diverter valve, high flow cats, exhaust, not to mention a fuel regulator and the nessessary ECU work to even get the car started.

But presented with this scenario, you said "No problem." Now, any sensible person with experience in turbo tuning would have said to me "You want me to up the boost ---to 23? On this car, with no other parts on it? No way. The car won't run." But instead, you said it can be done with a 5 dollar part, in 10 minutes.

But you weren't being sensible. Because if you were being sensible, you'd then have to admit there's a lot more to adjusting boost than just changing out a valve. No, you wanted to win an argument. Your whole argument in this series is predicated on your assertion that not only is the amount of boost adjustable, it is ridiculously easy and cheap (5 bucks, 10 minutes) to do in ALL systems. And that is simply not true. You don't have to be a turbo guru to know this.

This whole thing started with this:
Originally posted by TsLeng
Ah, thats the type of turbo that i want, adjustable.
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Which, in fact was a response to this statement:

Originally posted by ShobThaBob
More importantly, turbos can have their boost levels changed from inside of the car, stoplight to stoplight.* I have a bud who runs an Evo8 on just 5 psi most of the time (a lot less than stock) and bumps it up however high he wants it whenever he wants it. It just makes it easier on the engine, and streetable.
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*EMPHISIS IS MINE

To which you made this infamous reply:

Originally posted by Monster7
:rolleyes: All turbo's are adjustable..
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NOT IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH HE WAS SPEAKING. You wanted to bust TsLeng on a technicality, but Duke came in and busted you right back. If that doesn't sit well with you, then make sure you make 100% airtight statements before you get cocky about them.

I don't know how many more times you want to go over this, because you and Duke have already been through it at least 3.

Take my advice... let it go.


///M-Spec
 

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