Turbo VS NA Driting!

  • Thread starter HKS_T51KAI
  • 55 comments
  • 7,366 views
Yea, what's up with people saying they feel turbo lag...I feel absolutely none to any of my tuned cars...

The only instance I felt turbo lag is when I won a tuner Z car and put a large turbo into it. That thing wouldn't accelerate...


But all of my AWD drift cars are 450+ hp...hence, I'm tuning with turbo, hence the user name ForcedInduction.
 
-Cheezman-
GT4 doesn't simulate lag. Easy as that. But if I were a drifter, I would rather have a turbo than NA.


:dunce:

Agree. GT4 similated the peaky aspect of a big turbo, but not the lag. If you use the JUN Fairlady, you can see the boost gauge goes to max as soon as you hit the gas (at mid-high rpm). But in real life that car would probably take some time for the turbo to spool up at any rpm.
 
If there isn't the problem of lag in Gt4, so the turbo will make the car easier to drift, because you have more power and torque, making the car easier to break the traction.
 
nos2
Agree. GT4 similated the peaky aspect of a big turbo, but not the lag. If you use the JUN Fairlady, you can see the boost gauge goes to max as soon as you hit the gas (at mid-high rpm). But in real life that car would probably take some time for the turbo to spool up at any rpm.

Actually No, it wouldn't, modern turbo kits (big or small) barley show lag.
 
The reason why modern turbokits dont show lag is because of ball bearing technology. This allows the turbo to spool quicker at low rpm, or either because twin-turbo. What PD didnt take into work is the manufacture of the type of turbo, company. all the company designes thier turbo differently. HKS produces different turbo to TRUST(GREDDY).
HKS - uses Garrett turbo
TRUST - uses Mitsubishi turbo
Another PD didnt really show the efects of the vacuming process when foot is lifted of gas. Boost gauge, i dont think you would be running 30PSI in a 200sx just for 300HP. NA though is well constructed.
 
Xtreme Drifter
If there isn't the problem of lag in Gt4, so the turbo will make the car easier to drift, because you have more power and torque, making the car easier to break the traction.

Take a car that does not have turbo. Look at the power/torque curve. Add stage 3/4 turbo and see what happens to the curve. I haven't actually done this, but I am sure you will see that the curve will be steaper. Yes, you will have more MAX power and torque. This is more of a problem for me because of the huge spike in power that is hard to control with a ds2 (the immediate reaction to completely back off the gas sometimes results in falling out of the powerband). That is the issue I was referring to with my post. Nos2 also made this point. I never really thought of this as an issue until I went from drifting a BMW to a maxed out Nismo 270r. :lol: Just takes a few spins to adjust to the right angles and approaches for that car. :sly:
 
I read up on turbos and lag and whatnot and found out some cool stuff. Not sure if everyone knows it or not so Ill go through it real quick.

The term "turbo lag" is how long it takes your turbo to produce the psi it can once your engine is already up to speed.

example: You are coming down a straight coming up on a driftable hairpin... you brake and downshift, and your engine revs up to about 5000, where your turbo can produce 13psi. Turbo lag is how long it takes your turbo to create that 13 psi once you are already at the proper engine speed.

Boost response is the time it takes from when you floor the gas from a low engine speed to when your engine revs produce the exhaust needed to spool the turbo to create that boost pressure.

as a basic rule of thumb:

......|-------------------------boost response---------------------|
gas floored---------------------turbo engages------------------max psi
..................................................|---------turbo lag-----------|

I hate having to use dashes but the forum auto formats to remove spaces. :(

Strangely enough, GT4 doesnt simulate either... GT3 simulated boost response VERY well... you could feel it with the big turbo cars at the starting line when it took FOREVER to rev to like 6-7000 RPMs. According to what I read, most people mistake boost response for turbo lag.

I think turbo lag, like you guys are talking about, affects drifting more than boost response.
 
GT Drift Whor3
Strangely enough, GT4 doesnt simulate either... GT3 simulated boost response VERY well... you could feel it with the big turbo cars at the starting line when it took FOREVER to rev to like 6-7000 RPMs. According to what I read, most people mistake boost response for turbo lag.

I think that would be the engine curve....but maybe I'm the one getting this confused.
 
GT Drift Whor3
I read up on turbos and lag and whatnot and found out some cool stuff. Not sure if everyone knows it or not so Ill go through it real quick.

The term "turbo lag" is how long it takes your turbo to produce the psi it can once your engine is already up to speed.

example: You are coming down a straight coming up on a driftable hairpin... you brake and downshift, and your engine revs up to about 5000, where your turbo can produce 13psi. Turbo lag is how long it takes your turbo to create that 13 psi once you are already at the proper engine speed.

Im afraid thats wrong, Turbo lag is the time it takes once you have pressed the accelerator untill the turbo affects performance.

For instance- You are diving down a road in 3 gear at 2000 rpm and you come across the car you want to overtake. You press the go pedal to the floor and the time it takes for the turbo to spool up and produce boost is the lag time. This is caused by the turbo not spinning fast enough and not enough exhaust gasses being passed through to allow the turbo to spin at its needed revolutions. So if your car's turbo doesnt affect performance untill 5000rpm then you will probably have alot of lag. However just becuase a car has a laggy turbo doesnt mean it will always take a long time to spool up. If you are driving at pace then its possible to keep your turbo spinning as you change up a gear your revs will be higher than "daily" driving and your car will not drop down to such a low revolution or low rev range and there will be enough exhaust gasses passing through the turbo to cause it to spool up to its optimum quickly creating essentially a lag free acceleration.

Modern day turbo charges cars use various methods to overcome lag such as twin turbo engines where they have a smaller, quicker spooling turbo before a larger "lagger" turbo ( not to be confused with twin turbo installations found on engines like a V8 where there is a turbo producing boost for each bank of cylinders). manufactuers also use low pressure turbos as seen in the new Focus RS and mitsubishi have started using an electronic fan to aid lag. and the result is pretty much a lag free turbocharged engine
 
GT Drift Whor3
http://www.xmission.com/~dempsey/shelby/turbo101.htm

Thats the article I got it from and, according to what youre saying, that article is wrong.

Thats pretty cool about the twin turbos with the little turbos. What would that be used in? High performace race cars and the like probably, right?


Its not all wrong but the part about lag is. When i checked the internet to make sure what i said was right i stumbled across the site you got ur info from. I still maintain that it isnt all correct as there were alot of other sites which said otherwise and some of those were very reputable turbo companys.

Its time for me to go home from work now but i shall continue this discussion tomorrow.
 
GT Drift Whor3
http://www.xmission.com/~dempsey/shelby/turbo101.htm

Thats the article I got it from and, according to what youre saying, that article is wrong.

Thats pretty cool about the twin turbos with the little turbos. What would that be used in? High performace race cars and the like probably, right?

Sorry for the double post. Yes im still maintaining that the article is wrong, not all of it as its quite insightful but the parts about the turbo lag are indeed wrong. Below is what turbo lag is - If you still beleive that other website over this then i would talk to Wikipedia (where the below text was extracted from) and all the other websites wich say otherwise about changing there information as they are obviously in the wrong ;)

Now im pretty sure that what is written below is pretty much similer to what i posted yesterday. I did a quick search this morning for a more exact definition and found this.

Ohh.......Please read the paragraph in bold!



A lag is sometimes felt by the driver of a turbocharged vehicle as a delay between pushing on the accelerator pedal and feeling the turbo kick-in. This is symptomatic of the time taken for the exhaust system driving the turbine to come to high pressure and for the turbine rotor to overcome its rotational inertia and reach the speed necessary to supply boost pressure. The directly-driven compressor in a supercharger does not suffer this problem. Conversely on light loads or at low rpm a turbocharger supplies less boost and the engine is more efficient than a supercharged engine.

Lag can be reduced by lowering the rotational inertia of the turbine, for example by using lighter parts to allow the spin-up to happen more quickly. Ceramic turbines are a big help in this direction. Unfortunately, their relative fragility limits the maximum boost they can supply. Another way to reduce lag is to change the aspect ratio of the turbine by reducing the diameter and increasing the gas-flow path-length. Increasing the upper-deck air pressure and improving the wastegate response help but there are cost increases and reliability disadvantages that car manufacturers are not happy about. Lag is also reduced by using a precision bearing rather than a fluid bearing, this reduces friction rather than rotational inertia but contributes to faster acceleration of the turbo's rotating assembly.

Another common method of equalizing turbo lag, is to have the turbine wheel "clipped", or to reduce the surface area of the turbine wheel's rotating blades. By clipping a minute portion off the tip of each blade of the turbine wheel, less restriction is imposed upon the escaping exhaust gases. This imparts less impedance onto the flow of exhaust gasses at low rpm, allowing the vehicle to retain more of its low-end torque, but also pushes the effective boost rpm to a slightly higher level. The amount a turbine wheel is and can be clipped is highly application-specific. Turbine clipping is measured and specified in degrees.

Other setups, most notably in V-type engines, utilize two identically-sized but smaller turbos, each fed by a separate set of exhaust streams from the engine. The two smaller turbos produce the same (or more) aggregate amount of boost as a larger single turbo, but since they are smaller they reach their optimal rpm, and thus optimal boost delivery, faster. Such an arrangement of turbos is typically referred to as a "twin turbo" setup.

Some car makers combat lag by using two small turbos (like Toyota, Subaru, Maserati, Mazda, and Audi). A typical arrangement for this is to have one turbo active across the entire rev range of the engine and one coming on-line at higher rpm. Early designs would have one turbocharger active up to a certain rpm, after which both turbochargers are active. Below this rpm, both exhaust and air inlet of the secondary turbo are closed . Being individually smaller they do not suffer from excessive lag and having the second turbo operating at a higher rpm range allows it to get to full rotational speed before it is required. Such combinations are referred to as "sequential turbos". Sequential turbochargers are usually much more complicated than single or twin-turbocharger systems because they require what amount to three sets of pipes-intake and wastegate pipes for the two turbochargers as well as valves to control the direction of the exhaust gases. An example of this is the current BMW E60 5-Series 535d.

Lag is not to be confused with the boost threshold, however many publications still make this basic mistake. The boost threshold of a turbo system describes the minimum turbo rpm at which the turbo is physically able to supply the requested boost level.
Newer turbocharger and engine developments have caused boost thresholds to steadily decline to where day-to-day use feels perfectly natural. Putting your foot down at 1200 engine rpm and having no boost until 2000 engine rpm is an example of boost threshold and not lag.

Race cars often utilise anti-lag to completely eliminate lag at the cost of reduced turbocharger life.

We all agreed now?

Cheers

Spec....
 
The efectiveness of the turbo comes down to size, build, design and others....
there are 3 different types of turbo settings
Twin-Turbo
Sequential Twin-turbo
and Single.
i'd like to point out that sequential spools the faster and offers the most torque in terms of torque band, as we have 2 different sized turbos. My question is weather PD has achived to simulate all 3 different types of ssettings of turbo.
Using stage 4 turbo of a supra and yet still able to simulate the effects of Sequential turbo is unrealestic.
Twin-turbo is simulated by the quick spool rate of the turbo, as we got 2 turbo
Single is still unrealistic as in real life, boost shouldnt come untill 4000RPM, stage 4 turbo, the boost comes under 2500 RPM!
 
HKS_T51KAI
The efectiveness of the turbo comes down to size, build, design and others....
there are 3 different types of turbo settings
Twin-Turbo
Sequential Twin-turbo
and Single.
i'd like to point out that sequential spools the faster and offers the most torque in terms of torque band, as we have 2 different sized turbos. My question is weather PD has achived to simulate all 3 different types of ssettings of turbo.
Using stage 4 turbo of a supra and yet still able to simulate the effects of Sequential turbo is unrealestic.
Twin-turbo is simulated by the quick spool rate of the turbo, as we got 2 turbo
Single is still unrealistic as in real life, boost shouldnt come untill 4000RPM, stage 4 turbo, the boost comes under 2500 RPM!
This is all a question of car,turbocharger,waste gate(modern cars have taken the technology to extreme heights, even in basic sport cars).
In the end it's not so clean cut as I would like to admit.
 
The reason turbo lag is non existent is because before you race or drive, you do one MAJOR thing... REV THE ENGINE! Doing this allows the turbo to "catch up". Once you have the turbo spinning, it won't just die down, it will spin for awhile, so even if I have been driving around, and suddenly decrease speed (drift), the turbo will still show no lag because it is spinning and will remain spinning until I give it time to slow down. If I were to floor it before reving my engine, then yes, I would have to wait a few seconds. This is not simulated in GT4, rather, what you are feeling/seeing, is the games physics engine simulating your tuned transmission (if you have it too "wide").

Get it? Got it? Good!
 
Back