Turbocharger, Supercharger, or Naturally Aspirated?

[MrKipling43]

you're just sitting there, wishing that the engine was properly mapped.

efa

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Thats why you stay in the powerband Gear tuning is essential, without the power/torque graph i wouldve voted NA, but we do have it so i voted turbo because i like to thrash the car round sticking it in the high revs and keeping it here.

Oh, so to make a turbo with lag work, you need a top speed of roughly 200km/hr? Modern turbos hardly have lag though, so what's ya'll real reasoning for them? I love the supercharger whine, and they look so bad-ass under the bonnet, too bad PD don't model supercharger noises, and in GT4 only used superchargers running like 5psi of boost, maybe less.....

efa

I don't know what efa means.

 

[kekke2000]

Modern turbos hardly have lag though, so what's ya'll real reasoning for them?

You obviously haven't seen when Top Gear tested the turbo lag on the Impreza.

 

[Kryz11]

Turbo. Wonder what cars do I like that are Turbo'd?

<----------*ahem*

Honda Civic?

 

[Kryz11]

OPPS sorry for double post.. 2nd one this week. I need a break from GTPlanet

N/A Since it takes more engineering then just slapping a super or turbo charger in a car and saying I can beat you're car. Al tho I am not ANTI super or turbo chargers

 

[craste]

I used to have a Focus RS and when the turbo kicked in around 3K revs the shove it made in your back was great and it made it really exciting to drive. My cousin has just brought a BMW M3 (last shape) and although its obviosley a quicker car to 60 it doesn't 'feel' as fast because as its an NA engine the power curve is alot smoother throughout the rev range.

He thought my RS 'felt' quicker than his mates Audi RS4 for the same reason also.

But hey this topic's like swings and roundabouts - its what floats your boat at the end of the day.

I've never driven a Honda Civic type R but they are supposed to revs so high they make your hairs on your neck stand on end (although they don't have much torgue) so there is good and bad points against all three types of engine.

What is important though is that when you do get a chance to drive your car - drive it like its stolen as much as you can because in the not to distant future cars will be on -lock-down via GPS and our big brother/nanny governments - so enjoy flooring your cars while you can.
But be safe - theres a big difference between a fast driver and a fast and safe driver.

 

[Kryz11]

I used to have a Focus RS and when the turbo kicked in around 3K revs the shove it made in your back was great and it made it really exciting to drive. My cousin has just brought a BMW M3 (last shape) and although its obviosley a quicker car to 60 it doesn't 'feel' as fast because as its an NA engine the power curve is alot smoother throughout the rev range.

He thought my RS 'felt' quicker than his mates Audi RS4 for the same reason also.

Another reason that BMW feel's slower is not because of NON turbo, it's because its a BMW. They are really comftable cars, bigger then FOCUS and more stable. In focus, everything is just plan, shackey, and smaller there for lets say going 100MPH in focus feeels like you are doing 130, and in BMW going 130 feels like 80mph. It's a BMW speed is there, but you never feel it . More expensive German cars are like that.

 

[Nicksfix]

N/A
Although the sounds of a turbo and supercharger are pretty sweet.

 

[MrKipling43]

I don't know what efa means.

Edited For Accuracy

To understand the lack of lag modern turbocharged cars have, you really have to have experienced turbo technology of old (as in, early nineties) when the gear was pretty much irrelevant! If you went from a constant throttle to flooring it, you'd have time to roll a fag, light it and smoke most of it before it came 'on boost'.

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

I'll love the sound of a supercharged V8.

Over in the UK it sounds so different to the usual turbocharged 4 cylinders and the turbocharged diesel engines.

 

[zodicus]

Turbo for me both my Daily driver and drag car are turbocharged

 

[RedSuinit]

Modern turbos hardly have lag though, so what's ya'll real reasoning for them?

Um, what "modern turbos" are you thinking of. In order to get rid of turbo lag, you need a turbo that is basically a perfect match to your engine, and has a wicked spool, so that the turbo will be spooling at idle. I've only heard of maybe 3 turbos that can do this, and I've only heard of it being done on 1.8 to 2.2 liter engines. The only specific turbo I can think of is the Hass GT28RS (so SICK!) that someone I know put onto a MR2 Spyder, and it really does spool at idle. Turbo lag is no factor in his car, and it is so fast. (Making 220 RWHP, on a 2180 lb. car with a full tank and my freind in it) If I was to Turbo aan engine it would probably be the 3rd generation 3sGTE (standard engine in the 93 - 98 MKII MR2 or 93-94 in the U.S. because the didn't sell the 95 turbo in the U.S. ) with the GT28RS (60mm bore) because that thing would also spool at idle leaving you with no turbo lag, but still reaching 200 ft-lb of torque at 3500 RPM and reaching around 300-350 HP at about 6300 RPM, (depending on how well you tune the turbo) at the wheels with about 15 psi of boost. (Oh, and this car has a 7000 RPM red-line)

 

[MrKipling43]

The Variable Vane jobbies on the new Porsche Turbos spring to mind immediately.

The Litchfield Type 25 has hardly any lag, neither does the new STi or any number of diesels.

Any way, he never said 'get rid of' - he said 'hardly any'. Which are two very different things.

 

[craste]

A lot of manufacturers are putting two turbos in cars to reduce lag so they work in the lower rev ranges and then the other kicks in in the higher rev ranges so that the effect is like a NA engine but with the added benifit of a smaller capacity so more BHP and MPG and less emmissions.

Turbo charging has made a big come back and because of the global credit crunch and the need to be greener - TURBOS will be in more and more cars going forward.

 

[RedSuinit]

The Variable Vane jobbies on the new Porsche Turbos spring to mind immediately.

The Litchfield Type 25 has hardly any lag, neither does the new STi or any number of diesels.

Any way, he never said 'get rid of' - he said 'hardly any'. Which are two very different things.

Good point, I misunderstood his post, and as for the new STi, yes it has average lag. When I hear hardly any lag, I think 2250 - 2500 RPM or less, the STi? Stock the turbo kicks in around 3000 RPM, (REALLY bad lag is around 4000 RPM in my opinion) but as someone posted before, if you're complaining about lag, you're in the wrong gear. (Or are in first gear taking off)

The Litchfield Type 25 was designed by Litchfield to fit and perform excellently on the Subaru's 2.5 lt. engine, and the Typt 25 Subaru, heck it practically isn't a Subaru anymore with all those after-market parts put onto it. Plus the engine and Turbo on that car have been tuned to work together rather well, but even then it doesn't reach full spool until close to 2800 RPM.

You would have to tell me what diesels you are referring to. The only turbo diesel I hav experience with (Turbo diesels is not my cup of tea) had terrible lag, and this was the VW 1.8TD Jetta. But I do know that quite a few TD's out there use the VV turbos, which get excellent spool.

But even still as I said the number of turbos that can achieve this are few and far between, and need to be a practically perfect match to the engine that you are trying to turbo-charge.

And we're not even getting into boost threshold.

Luke

 

[Motominded]

is it even possible to mix both the turbo and supercharger together??

Always look to group B for those answers. Lancia Delta S4

 

[RedSuinit]

A lot of manufacturers are putting two turbos in cars to reduce lag so they work in the lower rev ranges and then the other kicks in in the higher rev ranges so that the effect is like a NA engine but with the added benifit of a smaller capacity so more BHP and MPG and less emmissions.

Turbo charging has made a big come back and because of the global credit crunch and the need to be greener - TURBOS will be in more and more cars going forward.

Sequential twin turbos, yes work as you say, and that makes up close to 50% of Twin Turbo Engines. However, the other 50% are parallel twin turbo engines, which uses both turbos at the same time, in order to get even MORE power.

But, yes we will see more and more turbocharged cars because they are more efficient with less emissions as you say.

Always look to group B for those answers. Lancia Delta S4

NICE.

Luke

 

[MrKipling43]

I've driven the Type 25 (with Iain Litchfield in the passenger as it happens) and even though you don't hit peak torque until about 3,200rpm (about 420lb/ft), you simply wouldn't believe how flat the torque curve is.

Of course there's a noticeable ramping up in acceleration when you get to full boost, but it's so drivable, you'd never describe it as being 'laggy'.

Also, the revs that you hit full boost at is irrelevant to 'lag', providing that the engine has sufficient grunt to carry it towards full boost. If you see what I mean.

Iain's line on the T25 is "from the moment the air hits the air filter to the moment it leaves the exhaust, nothing it touches is standard".

 

[RedSuinit]

I've driven the Type 25 (with Iain Litchfield in the passenger as it happens) and even though you don't hit peak torque until about 3,200rpm (about 420lb/ft), you simply wouldn't believe how flat the torque curve is.

Of course there's a noticeable ramping up in acceleration when you get to full boost, but it's so drivable, you'd never describe it as being 'laggy'.

Also, the revs that you hit full boost at is irrelevant to 'lag', providing that the engine has sufficient grunt to carry it towards full boost. If you see what I mean.

Iain's line on the T25 is "from the moment the air hits the air filter to the moment it leaves the exhaust, nothing it touches is standard".

Jealous, that's all I have to say. Utter jealousy.

Just so you know, I wasn't saying that the car "felt" laggy (I wouldn't know, I've never driven one. I am referencing a Dyno plot that I found. Yes, it is the Litchfeild Type 25 ) And you're right the car does have a beautiful torque and HP curve, but even still the turbo (not the engine) does lag, taking time to reach full spool, (which was my point) but I have now been corrected that the Type 25 doesn't reach spool till almost 3200 RPM, I was misinformed about the spool. (Even though I thought that it reached spool 400 RPM faster than it really is. )

Luke

 

[MrKipling43]

Jealous, that's all I have to say. Utter jealousy.

Just so you know, I wasn't saying that the car "felt" laggy (I wouldn't know, I've never driven one. I am referencing a Dyno plot that I found. Yes, it is the Litchfeild Type 25 ) And you're right the car does have a beautiful torque and HP curve, but even still the turbo (not the engine) does lag, taking time to reach full spool, (which was my point) but I have now been corrected that the Type 25 doesn't reach spool till almost 3200 RPM, I was misinformed about the spool. (Even though I thought that it reached spool 400 RPM faster than it really is. )

Luke

Oh ok, I see what you mean now.

You're talking about how long it takes for a turbo to reach the point at which it's compressing the most air, rather than the subjective issue of Turbo lag, in the form of The Kick In The Arse.

The T25 is mega btw. I was having a bit of trouble with entry understeer, so Iain told me to be a bit more aggressive on turn. For some bizarre reason I decided to try this technique on Bruntingthorpe's 85mph right hander - Clicky (you'll have to select 'Satellite' to see it) - and the longest powerslide I've ever done ensued. My Bro, who was in the passenger seat, reckoned it was about five seconds and I was on the lock stops. Great fun. Very scary.

You wouldn't believe how fast it was on the road either - I thought I'd nip past a car at one point on a single carriageway on the way back from Brunters, and ended up overtaking 8 cars. I WANT ONE!

 

[RedSuinit]

Oh ok, I see what you mean now.

You're talking about how long it takes for a turbo to reach the point at which it's compressing the most air, rather than the subjective issue of Turbo lag, in the form of The Kick In The Arse.

The T25 is mega btw. I was having a bit of trouble with entry understeer, so Iain told me to be a bit more aggressive on turn. For some bizarre reason I decided to try this technique on Bruntingthorpe's 85mph right hander - Clicky (you'll have to select 'Satellite' to see it) - and the longest powerslide I've ever done ensued. My Bro, who was in the passenger seat, reckoned it was about five seconds and I was on the lock stops. Great fun. Very scary.

You wouldn't believe how fast it was on the road either - I thought I'd nip past a car at one point on a single carriageway on the way back from Brunters, and ended up overtaking 8 cars. I WANT ONE!

YES! When most people talk about lag (or the proverbial "kick in the arse") what they're actually referring to is the boost threshold (the RPM that it takes to get full flow through the exhaust so that the turbo can produce air compression (boost)). I am talking about the technical definition of turbo lag (how long it takes to get the turbine rotor to overcome its rotational inertia, so that it is rotating fast enough that it can produce air pressure when the boost threshold is reached).

Good grief! That's one wide right hander! I bet that was fun! Yeah looking at the specs, (just the SPECS) I can tell this car is incredibly fast, I wouldn't mind driving one myself if I ever got the chance.

Luke

 

[spyrrari]

Not so easy to prefer one of the 3...
If i want to drive a car with a screaming/singing engine, offcourse NA
If i want to drive a car wich gives you the well known kick in the but, TURBO
If i want to drive a car wich has a little of both,supercharged

So,for me,its really depending on the mooth i have,or the purpose on what i want the car to be,or do,on that particullar moment...

As i have driven loads of cars with all 3 sort of engines,and have a favorite in every kind,i can't really choose.....


spyrrari.

 

[STJ88]

is it even possible to mix both the turbo and supercharger together??

Nissan was the first to do it on a street car with the 1988 march super turbo. 930cc I4 with 110bhp.

 

[GT_Fanatic]

I opt for a turbo or two.

 

[Dark_Ryder]

Turbo offcouse, nothing beats turbo lag... you'r just sitting there, wating for hell to break loss!

i agree with what hes saying but N/A is still the best way to go

 

[blademask]

NA, all power, all the time.

 

[zodicus]

In my WRX theres pretty much not turbo lag. Anything over about 2500 rpm and as soon as you mash the gas it hits full boost. the stang should be at full spool at 4k but its a drag car so it wont ever see anything below that any way. So again basically no lag. Its not hard to get a turbo to not be punchy you just have to size it to the motor and power goals you have.

 

[panSPEED]

Quote:
Originally Posted by panSPEED
if i could get an R32 GTR, i'd NA the hell outta that thing and slap some ITB's on it. oohh man.


R32 GTR already has ITB's out of the factory (just not NA)

BUT

Autech did make a RB26DE (NA tuned GTR engine) in R32.

I may have misunderstood you somehow, but i don't think you're right, man. turbo cars have intake plenums, the whole reason for ITB's is to get rid of that intake plenum so you can evenly distribute airflow to all cylinders. the RB26DETT DOES have individual stacks that connect to an intake plenum, but that's not ITB. NA=ITB's, Turbo=not. just sayin..

 

[Kryz11]

Always look to group B for those answers. Lancia Delta S4

so where is the engine?

 

[MustangSVT]

I'll go with turbo. I like the whine it makes and it has some sort of exhaust blowoff too when you shift gears or something like that, I don't know exactly how it works, all I know is it sounds awesome.