Tyre rotation?

[hawkeye122]

So, I took my fathers 2001 Camry (The 2.2, Manual. Smokes M3's all day) to the dealer to get the oil changed (For free).

"Would you like us to rotate the Tyres? The rears are looking a bit worn.."
"Uh, no. I'm fine, thanks."

As far as I can remember, I've always been told that if you have a Front wheel drive car, you want the best tyres on the front. And here the man at the dealer wants me to switch them out, so I have less grip in the front when theres rain? This didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.


For those of us who don't buy 4 tyres at a time...


Do we want the good ones on the front or the back?

 

[eiriksmil]

Front tire grip even for cornering and braking is much more important than rear wheel grip. Also applies to RWD cars.

Tire rotation is a point as to wear the tires equally, thus lasting longer. I don't care though, I drive until the fronts are busted and change them up.

 

[Greycap]

Front tire grip even for cornering and braking is much more important than rear wheel grip. Also applies to RWD cars.

Wrong, very wrong. Always better tyres in the rear because understeering in an emergency is infinitely better than spinning the car.

Tire rotation is a point as to wear the tires equally, thus lasting longer.

Indeed. Best done every year before a noticable difference can be seen.

 

[carracerptp]

So, I took my fathers 2001 Camry (The 2.2, Manual. Smokes M3's all day) to the dealer to get the oil changed (For free).

"Would you like us to rotate the Tyres? The rears are looking a bit worn.."
"Uh, no. I'm fine, thanks."

As far as I can remember, I've always been told that if you have a Front wheel drive car, you want the best tyres on the front. And here the man at the dealer wants me to switch them out, so I have less grip in the front when theres rain? This didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.


For those of us who don't buy 4 tyres at a time...


Do we want the good ones on the front or the back?

Yes, I have been told the same thing, the company wouldn't do it any other way (it was in their policy).

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

The front tires will wear faster than the rears. If the front tires appear new, and the rear tires appear old, it means that the tires were just rotated. The old front tires were put on the rear, to save the tyre life in the rear, to get a few more kms. out of one set of tires.

 

[eiriksmil]

Wrong, very wrong. Always better tyres in the rear because understeering in an emergency is infinitely better than spinning the car.

It is easier to correct oversteer than understeer, though. After testing this out on a frozen lake, regular studs vs rally-style long studs up front and bad, studded tires without studs in the rear, I am a firm believer that it's more important with front grip - then you atleast can point the car in the right direction. For a FWD car on a wet road, I would much rather be able to control an oversteer with the throttle rather than going straight into a ditch because the car is going straight ahead and I can't control it with either, nor brakes, because my front tires are bad.

Not to mention most cars have front brake bias..

 

[Watt2159]

I'm paranoid about my car, so when I go in to change my tires, I have the same type of tire on all 4, it may cost more, but It gives me peace of mind.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I'm paranoid about my car, so when I go in to change my tires, I have the same type of tire on all 4, it may cost more, but It gives me peace of mind.

It's not FF. Sometimes I think that I'd rather have bald rear tires, for autocross. Of course, the S.C.C.A. would refuse to allow me to drive it, BUT, damn, that would make my Accent even faster.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Grippy tires to gain better traction, to steer and to brake, and a fine working brake systems are the lifeline of a car. Check the treads, if it's shallow or starting to bald, time to replace not rotate. Braking system should also be included for check up.

The worse thing that could happen to FF or FR car is to have badly worn rear tires rotated to the front ... big no no. Understeer at high speed or rain is a recipe for disaster, braking distance will also be sacrificed along with quick steering during emergency.

 

[hawkeye122]

Grippy tires to gain better traction, to steer and to brake, and a fine working brake systems are the lifeline of a car. Check the treads, if it's shallow or starting to bald, time to replace not rotate. Braking system should also be included for check up.

The worse thing that could happen to FF or FR car is to have badly worn rear tires rotated to the front ... big no no. Understeer at high speed or rain is a recipe for disaster, braking distance will also be sacrificed along with quick steering during emergency.

I'll say this once. My tyres are not worn beyond being safe. Are the rear ones more worn than the fronts? Yes. But they are WELL within the legal limit.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I'll say this once. My tyres are not worn beyond being safe. Are the rear ones more worn than the fronts? Yes. But they are WELL within the legal limit.

We're not saying that they're bald. We're saying that it's better to have the worn tires on the rear.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

No worries then as long as the treads are within legal and safety limit. If the car is heavy or powerful, I am sure you would feel a difference when the tires are rotated, usually a subtle changes in handling, especially on the slippery surface.

My 1st post was about badly worn or starting to bald tires which are closely on the border of legal limit of tread depth. A truly bald or fully worn out tires would be almost treadless, which is highly unsafe.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

No point in rotating my tires, I have crazyyy camber wear from being totally hellaflush.
the inside of my tires are bald while the outsides look 50%
sucks to roll hard

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Better tyres go ALWAYS to the rear. It's not a matter of understeer or oversteer, but overall safety, no matter whether the car is FF or FR. The point of this is to keep as much metal and crumple zones between the phone pole your car is sliding towards and you.

 

[Time_Attack]

I drove a Chrysler crossfire the other day that had the wheels rotated. This was very strange seeing as these cars come double staggered from the factory. The old man had driven it too our dealership not knowing anything was wrong.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

With worn rear tires, you could always drive slower and more cautious with the right foot, while still retain directional ability and decent braking. On the contrary, a worn out or worse front tires is always a losing situation, prone to understeer, unresponsive steering on slippery road, highly diminished braking performance, a car could go slower than 30 mph in the rain and would still be possible to hit a pole if unable to steer away or brake and stop in time.

 

[Dennisch]

Better tyres go ALWAYS to the rear. It's not a matter of understeer or oversteer, but overall safety, no matter whether the car is FF or FR. The point of this is to keep as much metal and crumple zones between the phone pole your car is sliding towards and you.

I'm really having a hard time understanding your logic. I rather have grippy front tyres
for every day use. As in most cars those tyres steer the vehicle.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

This is where having a slammed car is the best.
Whens the last time you seen a sloammed car speeding?
Always -5 under the limit.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

I'm really having a hard time understanding your logic. I rather have grippy front tyres
for every day use. As in most cars those tyres steer the vehicle.

Grippy tyres in the back = less chances of rear end end trying to overtake you under braking when the weight shifts to the front.

 

[Dennisch]

No grip in the front : just keep on sliding onto that intersection...

 

[Azuremen]

Grippy tyres in the back = less chances of rear end end trying to overtake you under braking when the weight shifts to the front.

The fault in your logic is a vast majority of the braking and stopping is done by the front tires on the car. This is the first time I've really heard someone making a case to put the better tires in the rear. And generally, when discussing tire rotation, the difference isn't too extreme and the natural brake bias of a car will sort out a lot of it as well.

 

[Dennisch]

Btw. Shouldn't tyres rotate anyway? Standing still all the time gives you flat spots.

Ok, I'll get my coat.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

The fault in your logic is a vast majority of the braking and stopping is done by the front tires on the car. This is the first time I've really heard someone making a case to put the better tires in the rear. And generally, when discussing tire rotation, the difference isn't too extreme and the natural brake bias of a car will sort out a lot of it as well.

That's how I was taught/told to do at school. Then again, that teacher had been teaching since the 70's so maybe his information was slightly out of date..

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Grippy tyres in the back = less chances of rear end end trying to overtake you under braking when the weight shifts to the front.

Try do that in a FF car, brake hard, let the worn front tire lock and let the rear grippy tire do the work, I am sure the car would just coast straight ahead and crash, instead going sideways.

Next, try again in an FF car, this time with grippy front and worn rear, brake hard, the car would stop just fine, unless the driver apply sudden steering, which will upset the balance, but it would still be controllable with grippy front that actually steers and brake effectively.

Your example should be for FR car, and not braking but under acceleration exiting a corner aka sideways fun.

 

[Azuremen]

That's how I was taught/told to do at school. Then again, that teacher had been teaching since the 70's so maybe his information was slightly out of date..

It is entirely possible. Generally, you aren't going to notice an extreme amount of difference in typical rotation on a car, and being able to stop and turn in more common emergency situations makes far more sense than planning for worst case scenario - aka off the road. Even in my MR cars, rear tire wear was not that much of an issue unless I was being fully retarded and trying to get the car sideways. Typical drivers are going to do everything wrong regardless, but modern ABS system and compounds will sort out a lot of issues if the rear tires are 5% less efficient.

Plus, having a bit more control upfront could easily mean stopping before going off the road, versus trying to avoid spinning out.

 

[paulmac2k9]

Yeah, when in Aus my friends mum had the pretty fresh rear tyres swapped to the front for the more worn fronts. She had a big heavy Toyota Aurion 3.5 V6 (FF) and she drove it very, very fast . (So the fronts didn't last very long.. )

 

[Keef]

When it comes to sliding safely, listen to the guy from Finland.

As far as I can remember, I've always been told that if you have a Front wheel drive car, you want the best tyres on the front.

That's not right. Not matter what wheels are driven, for safe street driving purposes you always want the best tires on the rear. Unless you're the Drift King and think you can handle any type of car when poor rear tires decide to lose grip on a wet highway interchange or on a snowy road then you need the grippy ones on the rear to minimize that. If you have the worse tires on the front you can eliminate the risk by simply driving more carefully, and when the car does slide at least you know which direction it's going - straight. That's a lot safer than fishtailing, overcorrecting, and careening uncontrollably into a pole or oncoming traffic when you suddenly realize why they don't use front-drive cars for drifting competitions. The chances of that happening are low though it can happen at any speed, and when it does happen you're totally screwed. It won't happen at all if you have the good tires on the rear and are simply driving more carefully, however.

Live in the desert where it never rains or snows? If you live in conditions where there are no low-grip situations you have to drive through then it doesn't really matter. Low-grip situations like rain and snow are where this proper technique of putting the good tires on the rear could really save your ass once in a blue moon.

EDIT: From the Tire Rack:

When tires are replaced in pairs in situations like these, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front. New tires on the rear axle help the driver more easily maintain control on wet roads since deeper treaded tires are better at resisting hydroplaning.

...

If the front tires have significantly less tread depth than the rear tires, the front tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the rear tires. While this will cause the vehicle to understeer (the vehicle wants to continue driving straight ahead), understeer is relatively easy to control because releasing the gas pedal will slow the vehicle and help the driver maintain control.

However, if the front tires have significantly more tread depth than the rear tires, the rear tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the fronts. This will cause the vehicle to oversteer (the vehicle will want to spin). Oversteer is far more difficult to control and in addition to the initial distress felt when the rear of the car starts sliding, quickly releasing the gas pedal in an attempt to slow down may actually make it more difficult for the driver to regain control, possibly causing a complete spinout.

If I had a test course out behind my garage I'd conduct my own study. Alas, I don't, so I'm left to trust the guys who actually do try this stuff on their own test course.

 

[paulmac2k9]

Don't quite understand that tbh. To support putting better tyres on the front, atleast for FFs, my Fiesta came with wider front tyres to the rear. (Only 10mm wider but still)

 

[Keef]

Don't quite understand that tbh. To support putting better tyres on the front, atleast for FFs, my Fiesta came with wider front tyres to the rear. (Only 10mm wider but still)

Again, we're talking about low-grip situations such as hydroplaning in rain or sliding on snow. Understeer from worn front tires is a whole lot safer and more controllable than oversteer from worn rear tires, especially on a front-drive car. Especially especially considering a front-drive car's rear axle has much less weight on it than the front axle, meaning it's very likely that it will hydroplane long before the front end does if the rear tires are worn.

 

[niky]

This is an incredibly annoying pet peeve of mine.

Worn tires in front. Always. ALWAYS.

This comes from years of testing experience, racetrack testing, driving on worn tires and spinning cars.

Worn tires in front means you have slightly less braking, but you will brake straight and true. A tire with little tread will still grip the road in the dry, but will hydroplane or skid. When the front tires hydroplane (and I've experienced this, driving home from the track in torrential rain with less than a gnat's hair tread in front), the car will slide... straight.

When the rear tires hydroplane or lock under braking, the car goes sideways. I've seen that, too. Same under braking. Worn front tires... car brakes straight. Worn rear tires, snap, slide, hello barrel roll.

I've done track tests on a whole lot of cars, and I have instrumented findings to show for it. We're talking a two car length difference in braking distance from 62 mph (this is what we typically test on track) in the dry for worn fronts versus a ten car length difference in braking distance with worn rears as you desperately try to tame the fishtailing mess your car has become. I've done both. And the latter is incredibly unfun to do.

Too many times some idiot will get on track and will swap worn tires to the rear for better turn in. That works if you're a driver with mad skills. Most drivers aren't. The result is spin city. I've done track sessions with tires well past their due date. You are safer with the bald ones in front, because you can always trim out understeer by braking, trusting the grippy rear axle to follow into the turn. With bald rear tires, you're sitting on a spin-happy timebomb. It's more fun, but a lot more dangerous.

Of course, what do we know? If your Granpaw says worn tires rear, then maybe he's right? Let's watch an educational video.



Maybe I'm not Petter Solberg, but having survived hundreds of brake tests on track, and expecting to do a few hundred more this Christmas, I believe I know what I'm talking about.