Tyre rotation?

  • Thread starter Thread starter hawkeye122
  • 46 comments
  • 1,955 views
Bah, the car journalist has spoken ;)

Perhaps I'm just use to a back end that wants to do whatever from years of daily driving MR cars around. I also generally prefer having more grip in the front when driving on snow, regardless of drive train, because I find a bit of over steer far easier to manage in the snow than understeer. Maybe it just the feeling that I'm along for the ride when the car understeers and have to wait it out, while with oversteer I feel I can be far more proactive in addressing it. Of course, years and years of experience driving sideways in gravel and snow have certainly helped that confidence...

The point on hydroplaning is quite valid though and I hadn't thought too much about that. And normal people aren't the best at handling anything resembling oversteer, and tend to just panic and slam their brakes, making the issue worse. Plus they tend to buy absolute trash high mileage tires that don't grip much at all anyhow...
 
Reminds me of this...

m3-rotation-screwed-1600.jpg
 
Heh. If you have a car that's already a bit tail-happy, you already compensate.

But yes, the vast majority of people don't know how to control oversteer. Hell, even guys like us have trouble if we're not expecting it... especially if you're driving a Toyota Yaris with fifteen turns lock-to-lock from the dead-ish steering wheel. Maybe Jason Plato could catch that, but I can't.

Personally, I'm the type of driver who prefers a bit of understeer at speed, on the track. Because any oversteer that happens after the turn-in comes on my terms, not the car's.

Just got back from a mountain climbing trip. Interesting to be doing full opposite lock while going straight down the road... sideways... at crawling speed. Even more interesting to be doing it on a bike trail too narrow for a Hummer.

Newer video, just to beat a dead horse:
 
What the video only shows is when you push the tyres to their limits, that is what will happen. Freshes rear tyres are not better in normal traffic, because you wouldn't push your tyres to their limits, in normal traffic, like they do. Your (my) priorities in normal traffic are breaking and escaping a lane as quick as possible when needed, so I prefer fresh tyres in the front. Don't forget your engine is in front too so it needs grip for all the weight..
 
Those videos aren't pushing the tires anywhere near their limits on dry pavement. They're going 45 mph around a slight curve for cripe's sake.

The point is to show you that both new and worn tires have little grip difference on dry pavement, but a huge difference in the wet. On dry pavement there is a negligible difference in grip from brand new tires to well-worn tires, even near the limit of performance. On the flip side, in wet conditions there is a huge difference in grip available between new tires and well-worn tires. That's precisely what those videos are showing you. Worn tires have no tread depth with which to disperse water and so they hydroplane very easily. There's no such thing as hydroplaning on dry pavement.

Putting good tires on the front or rear doesn't matter in dry conditions, but it does matter a lot in wet conditions. By putting the good tires on the front you're taking a gamble that you're never going to go a moderate speed around a curve in the rain.
 
Keef
Putting good tires on the front or rear doesn't matter in dry conditions, but it does matter a lot in wet conditions. By putting the good tires on the front you're taking a gamble that you're never going to go a moderate speed around a curve in the rain.
Click to expand...

But but, even if you would rotate them, the rears should have enough grip to keep you going.. I mean, if you are sliding around you shouldn't drive it :lol:
 
So lets say I'm on a mountain road, and my front wheels lock up? I would have been better off with them on the front, trying to turn harder, rather than go careening off the side of a cliff?
 
In that case your first mistake wasn't braking, but going so fast that you need to brake heavily. Those speed limit signs are there for a reason. I know, they're more of suggestions than anything else, but if you have some cheap Korean Nankang tires, you shouldn't be speeding, especially when driving on the mountains of California.
 
Leonidae@MFT
In that case your first mistake wasn't braking, but going so fast that you need to brake heavily. Those speed limit signs are there for a reason. I know, they're more of suggestions than anything else, but if you have some cheap Korean Nankang tires, you shouldn't be speeding, especially when driving on the mountains of California.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Thanks all!
 
Dennisch
No grip in the front : just keep on sliding onto that intersection...
Click to expand...

After reading through I think I've found someone who knows what they are talking about. If you are in a front drive car, your best tires should be WITHOUT question on the front. In the event of rain, you want control. If your car was rear wheel drive then we would an entirely different issue, the problem would be traction. Over the years I've driven both drive trains and have been in your spot, in need of at least two tires. Have found the afore mentioned combinations to be the safe until I could afford to purchase a set.
 
hawkeye122
So lets say I'm on a mountain road, and my front wheels lock up? I would have been better off with them on the front, trying to turn harder, rather than go careening off the side of a cliff?
Click to expand...

In which case, the choice is whether you go off the mountain nose first, right side up or sideways, roof first.

Carlos
What the video only shows is when you push the tyres to their limits, that is what will happen. Freshes rear tyres are not better in normal traffic, because you wouldn't push your tyres to their limits, in normal traffic, like they do. Your (my) priorities in normal traffic are breaking and escaping a lane as quick as possible when needed, so I prefer fresh tyres in the front. Don't forget your engine is in front too so it needs grip for all the weight..
Click to expand...

Feel free to ignore the part in my admittedly boringly long post where I mentioned that on dry pavement, in our testing, worn front tires meant two cars' lengths of additional braking (at most...) from highway speeds to 0 mph, whereas worn rear tires meant you would cross the intersection fishtailing all the way, too busy trying to catch the car to stay on the brakes (and when you're fishtailing, holding the brakes down is a terrible idea).

And when you don't fishtail? You're still out about two car's lengths. Losing all rear braking and having the ABS chatter as you glide past the intersection is just as bad as the opposite.

tpark103
In the event of rain, you want control. If your car was rear wheel drive then we would an entirely different issue, the problem would be traction.
Click to expand...

Feel free to ignore all the videos posted of people going a perfectly sane 45 mph in a wide sweeper and spinning out due to worn rear tires.

You obviously have never hydroplaned a car. I've done it both with worn fronts and worn rears, and from experience, worn fronts are infinitely more acceptable.
 
Last edited:
niky
In which case, the choice is whether you go off the mountain nose first, right side up or sideways, roof first.

Feel free to ignore the part in my admittedly boringly long post where I mentioned that on dry pavement, in our testing, worn front tires meant two cars' lengths of additional braking (at most...) from highway speeds to 0 mph, whereas worn rear tires meant you would cross the intersection fishtailing all the way, too busy trying to catch the car to stay on the brakes (and when you're fishtailing, holding the brakes down is a terrible idea).

And when you don't fishtail? You're still out about two car's lenghts. Losing all rear braking and having the ABS chatter as you glide past the intersection is just as bad as the opposite.

Feel free to ignore all the videos posted of people going a perfectly sane 45 mph in a wide sweeper and spinning out due to worn rear tires.

You obviously have never hydroplaned a car. I've done it both with worn fronts and worn rears, and from experience, worn fronts are infinitely more acceptable.
Click to expand...

Not here to debate this mans safety with you or argue about your videos. As far as my driving experience goes I've driven in snowy conditions for 15 years and and I've driven in the tropics where we get record rain levels regularly for another ten. My personal opinion is if I'm in a front drive car, I would rather have the drive wheels have grip.
 
tpark103
Not here to debate this mans safety with you or argue about your videos.
Click to expand...

Well, that is great and all, but people will debate with you when you're generally wrong by expert opinions.

Just sayin'
 
tpark103
Not here to debate this mans safety with you or argue about your videos. As far as my driving experience goes I've driven in snowy conditions for 15 years and and I've driven in the tropics where we get record rain levels regularly for another ten. My personal opinion is if I'm in a front drive car, I would rather have the drive wheels have grip.
Click to expand...

I've driven in conditions so slippery that you're sideways at 5 km/h. And I've driven this fast, in both rallycross and trail. There, it matters little if you have worn rears... as long as the driving wheels have traction. But in any condition where you're going over 30 mph, having more grip in the rear is a must.

Scoff if you must, but I've seen it firsthand, on a variety of platforms, from rear- to front- to four-wheel drive. Rear grip is THE most important thing to have at highway speeds.

Maybe my mere 20 years of experience may not match your 25 for duration, but I've clocked well over a million kilometers on over two hundred different vehicles, so I think I know a little something about the topic. ;)
 

Latest Posts

Back