U.S. Autobahn?

[Philly]

If I recall, aren't the autobahns of Germany safer than the highways of the US? That could be from any factor: weather, drivers, cars, the like. Maybe the Germans have better rules than we do: keep right except to pass, move over if someone is approaching, fixed following distance, speed limits in congested areas. There are many more rules in Germany than we have for the highway.

The autobahns do generally have speed limits. If you look at a map, anywhere near a big city has a speed limit. That keeps traffic regulated nicely.

Look at the spread of people in Germany. In Europe, you have twice as many people in half the area. Germany is probably the size of the distance from Los Angeles to San Fransosco. In the US, we would be connecting very distant cities. For this reason, the airplane is better than the road. In Germany, driving is almost faster because distances are so short. The speed just makes the places closer.

An autobahn would be best suited to just the Northeast.

 

[Combustion]

Just some input, being European (but not living in Germany).

I wouldn't consider myself to have the experience of a 40 year old driver, I'm only 22, but I do have 5 (almost crash free) years of driving under my belt.

The normal speed limit on highways in my country is about 75mph. I went to Germany recently for an exhibition, but due to full flights I flew to Munich and then rented a car to Frankfurt, its about 300 miles distance. I set off at 7am so I could get there about 9am or so when the exhibition started.

I thought, 'sweet, Autobahn, no limits', in the Diesel Turbo (thank god it was a diesel) I could do about 145mph steadily when there was no limit.

It was weird, but noone seemed to be doing a speed over 90mph where there was no limit, I got so paranoid that I might be speeding I called my German friend at one point to confirm that that was, in fact, no limit. He said any speed fine as long as there was no posted limit. However, when there is a posted limit, everyone slows down (130kmh, 80kmh), I just stuck on the cruise control at those points.

Also the lanes were being used, and used properly. Passing is taken very seriously there. I got passed once during my trip and that was by an M5, I was basically in the middle lane to right lane throughout my entire journey and this man came up from behind (in middle lane) at I think 170mph, neatly overtook me and then pulled back into middle lane.

The motorway road, is of MUCH better quality than ANY road I have driven on, period, and I've visited many countries capable of making decent roads. The closest I've seen are some American interstates, the UK and Italian motorways.

The reason the Autobahn is so much better quality, is not only the fact that you will not find a bump anywhere, but the visibility. At any point you can see for miles, there are no blind bends, no gradients that could limit how far you can see, its a pleasure to drive at fast speeds, and if you have a good car, at no time you feel you are going too fast for the road (this is at stretches where there is no limit).

When I finally reached my destination (in about 2 and a bit hours) I realised why everyone was not going fast, I spent about 40 euros (50 dollars) for that journey on Diesel, and diesel is 20 cents cheaper than petrol in Germany.

If I lived there, I would be going 80mph on a daily basis too, but it's nice to have a good fast road when you need to get somewhere quickly and it was cheaper and faster than taking the train (80 euros).

 

[FoolKiller]

If I recall, aren't the autobahns of Germany safer than the highways of the US? That could be from any factor: weather, drivers, cars, the like. Maybe the Germans have better rules than we do: keep right except to pass, move over if someone is approaching, fixed following distance, speed limits in congested areas. There are many more rules in Germany than we have for the highway.

I don't know about Washington, but in Kentucky any of those offenses will get you a ticket if a cop decides you are in violation. I've also seen tickets for not moving over to allow someone entrance from an on-ramp (mostly applies to semi-trucks) and going too slow.

The difference is that in the US people are more likely to try multi-tasking while driving. Between radios, DVD players, cell phones, newspapers, makeup, food, drinks, kids, friends, etc. we find a million ways to not pay attention. Distractions are the most common cause of an accident, but police reports usually say speeding or lost control of teh vehicle because no one wants to admit to looking down to grab their Big Mac, having the paper open on the steering wheel, or looking backwards to yell at their kids. Nine times out of ten when I see another driver doing something stupid (besides excessive speeidng) they are usually doing something else as well. I can't tell you the number of times I have seen people not maintain speed, ride my bumper, or drift lanes only to see they are on a cell phone. Another example was last week a woman pulled out on to a four lane highway directly in front of me, into my lane. Despite my laying on the horn she still did it and when I got around her she was turned around, leaning in the back, yelling at her kids. She turned left onto a four-lane highway, without looking forward!

Most of the time when I do something stupid myself it is with my wife in the car and I am talking to her. It's my fault, not hers but I do things in that situation that I don't do when I am by myself.

If Americans just took driving more responsibly and didn't worry about getting work done or whatever then we would be better drivers and could probably have higher speed limits on the interstate system.

 

[daan]

4.) There would only be on-off ramps every 50-100 miles

A Veyron, going flat out, will empty its tank in 12 minutes. That'll take it 50 miles.

The side of the road is going to be littered with abandoned Veyrons!

 

[///M-Spec]

Forget the debate over safety or any practical considerations for how it would work.

It will never happen because there almost no economic incentive to pay for this thing. wfooshee already nailed it on the first page. Governments on the local, state and federal level are already strapped for cash to invest in infrastructure. Why would anyone throw billions into a new high speed car only interstate with almost no economic return? As much as I would enjoy being able to blast from NYC to LA at 160 mph in my Z4, I would much prefer the money be spent fixing EXISTING roads and highways in a reasonable amount of time.


M

 

[FoolKiller]

Wait, you mean they can make roads without pot holes?

 

[Danoff]

As has already been said, americans are too immature and incapable of handling a vehicle properly to have an Autobahn in the same sense of what the Germans have.

Sorry, I don't see that... and I don't see why you think the average German is somehow superior to the average American.

There are LOTS of problems with this idea.

- The lack of fueling stations
- The expense of policing this road with vehicles that can actually catch up with the cars on it
- The fact that the road would be a huge waste of money and not have a chance of making any of it back.
- The fact that the proposed road goes through an area of poor weather, making it difficult to maintain and making it more dangerous.
- That the proposed fee is high enough to scare lots of people away, but too low to recoup costs
- The fact that almost nobody wants/needs/can use the ability to go 90+mph over long distances.

I don't really see the need to claim that Americans are somehow inherently bad drivers to shoot this down.

 

[skip0110]

At least in the northeast the average speed on highways is 85-90 mph anyways. You really need to be going 90+ or way too fast for the average traffic speed/density to get a ticket.

 

[Jim Prower]

Would be no good. the primary reason for a speed-limit-less road would be for enthusasts. Truckers probably wouldn't make up that much time, and would burn much more fuel per ton of load than the doublestack freight rushing along beside them.

No economic reason = no go.

 

[Evolution.]

A Veyron, going flat out, will empty its tank in 12 minutes. That'll take it 50 miles.

The side of the road is going to be littered with abandoned Veyrons!

I would pay good money to see that .

 

[Diablomonkey]

Not a road genius, so I don't know a whole lot about why as to this.

If the road is that thick then it will hold up better and be less likely to crack....at least thats what they said on TV
..............................................................................................X
And as far as where it would go I guess it could be shaped like this X---|---X
..............................................................................................X

And also with the whole helmet thing I don't like it ether (My dad likes to go a little over board on safety)

 

[Wolfe]

Sorry, I don't see that... and I don't see why you think the average German is somehow superior to the average American.

Perhaps because I've lived here in the 'states for 20 years, I've been driving for about 5 years, and I stayed in Germany for almost a month, going on three major trips on the Autobahn -- one of which with me behind the steering wheel -- in addition to many smaller jaunts. I've also received input on German driving habits from a variety of native and non-native sources, including my (american) High School German instructor (who's been to Germany countless times), the two German students I've hosted here, and the family I stayed with when I was in Germany.

In Germany, a license is both more expensive and more difficult to obtain (and more widely considered to be a privilege) than in the united states. To an american who has never seen it before, the Autobahn is a big on-going game of horizontal leap frog, with drivers always keeping to the right whenever they can. About 40% of the Autobahn and many rural roads are unlimited, yet according to 2002 statistics, the usa's "per-capita" road crash fatality rate was nearly twice as much as Germany's.

When I was there, I was amazed with the efficiency with which drivers navigated through narrow city streets. They don't do the whole "stomp on the brakes to take a slight bend in the road at 2 mph" thing that my fellow americans like to torture me with as I get stuck behind them, and when I attempted to navigate Koblenz myself, I felt like an idiot as I clumsily tried to keep up with the pace of traffic in my relatively large 525ti rental car.

When I returned home and drove for the first time since taking the trip to Germany, I was greeted by a mess of relatively inattentive drivers in mammoth-mobiles, accelerating when they shouldn't (ie when the traffic light at the end of the block just turned red ), braking too late, braking excessively, taking corners slower than a child on a PowerWheels, and hogging the left lane on the freeway while being passed by everyone else on the right.

If you think america's drivers are great, or at least no worse than Germany's, fine. That's your opinion. I happen to disagree, based on my own experience.



As for the immaturity comment I made, only one thing really needs to be said: whenever an american hears about the whole no-speedlimit-on-the-Autobahn thing for the first time, their response inevitably ends up something like, "Really?! COOL!!"

 

[Diablomonkey]

Part of the problem I think is that here in the U.S. when the most of the people who drive they do other things while they drive, like drink coffee, eat fast food, and talk on the phone. I mean hell take the Allstate commercial the guy says that when you are multitasking while driving your chances for having a collision is %50 greater. Also over in Germany when they get in a car they are there to drive...thats it, I mean thats why the German cars DON'T HAVE CUP HOLDERS!!! The best thing that could happen is that fist we as a county of drivers could do is follow the example of the Germans, I bet that insurance rates would go down if we did and every one would like that.

 

[Max_DC]

Part of the problem I think is that here in the U.S. when the most of the people who drive they do other things while they drive, like drink coffee, eat fast food, and talk on the phone. I mean hell take the Allstate commercial the guy says that when you are multitasking while driving your chances for having a collision is %50 greater. Also over in Germany when they get in a car they are there to drive...thats it, I mean thats why the German cars DON'T HAVE CUP HOLDERS!!! The best thing that could happen is that fist we as a county of drivers could do is follow the example of the Germans, I bet that insurance rates would go down if we did and every one would like that.

We do have cup holders in our cars
But you're right, we are not allowed to have a cell phone in our hands while the engine is running. If a cop sees that, payday ....

Oh and please change the thread title, there's a typo in it (Autobhan instead of Autobahn )...

 

[FoolKiller]

We do have cup holders in our cars

Good, because I was trying to figure out what went in the place of my five cupholders.

 

[Sureboss]

As for the immaturity comment I made, only one thing really needs to be said: whenever an american hears about the whole no-speedlimit-on-the-Autobahn thing for the first time, their response inevitably ends up something like, "Really?! COOL!!"

You'd get the same thing in Britain.

Germany as a country and as a people I think are very mature. The Autobhan works in Germany, would it work elsewhere?

 

[Danoff]

In Germany, a license is both more expensive and more difficult to obtain (and more widely considered to be a privilege) than in the united states.

Here's your original statement.

Americans are too immature and incapable of handling a vehicle properly to have an Autobahn in the same sense of what the Germans have.

I guess you meant to say America's restrictions on driving skill to obtain a license are too lax. Instead of "Americans are too immature and incapable of handing a vehicle properly..."

About 40% of the Autobahn and many rural roads are unlimited, yet according to 2002 statistics, the usa's "per-capita" road crash fatality rate was nearly twice as much as Germany's.

A lot goes into those numbers. The US has a lot of streets that churn out wrecks at record pace. We also have a lot of unlicensed drivers. We also do a lot of highway driving in large vehicles... the size of our vehicles doesn't indicate to me that Americans are "immature" or "incapable of handling a vehicle properly". It indicates to me that we like big vehicles, which do more damage when they wreck.

Perhaps you meant to say "Americans' vehicles are too large for proper control at high speed".

When I was there, I was amazed with the efficiency with which drivers navigated through narrow city streets. They don't do the whole "stomp on the brakes to take a slight bend in the road at 2 mph" thing that my fellow americans like to torture me with as I get stuck behind them, and when I attempted to navigate Koblenz myself, I felt like an idiot as I clumsily tried to keep up with the pace of traffic in my relatively large 525ti rental car.

I don't usually see lots of stomping on brakes and slow turning on high speed highways. But this is an indication that these people don't understand the handling limitations of their vehicle.

Perhaps you meant to say "Americans aren't knowledgable enough of their vehicle's capabilities" instead of "incapable of handling a vehicle properly".

When I returned home and drove for the first time since taking the trip to Germany, I was greeted by a mess of relatively inattentive drivers in mammoth-mobiles, accelerating when they shouldn't (ie when the traffic light at the end of the block just turned red ), braking too late, braking excessively, taking corners slower than a child on a PowerWheels, and hogging the left lane on the freeway while being passed by everyone else on the right.

Perhaps you meant to say "Americans do not pay sufficent attention at the current speed limits, and would likely continue to pay insufficient attention at higher limits."

If you think america's drivers are great, or at least no worse than Germany's, fine. That's your opinion. I happen to disagree, based on my own experience.

I don't think America's drivers are great, and probably not even as good as Germany's. But I also don't think Americans are "too immature and incapable of handling a vehicle properly". There's nothing inherently inferior about Americans, and there's no reason to think that there is no way to implement an unlimited speed limit highway in America from a driver's skill point of view.

As for the immaturity comment I made, only one thing really needs to be said: whenever an american hears about the whole no-speedlimit-on-the-Autobahn thing for the first time, their response inevitably ends up something like, "Really?! COOL!!"

It is cool.

 

[wfooshee]

Here's your original statement.



I guess you meant to say America's restrictions on driving skill to obtain a license are too lax. Instead of "Americans are too immature and incapable of handing a vehicle properly..."



A lot goes into those numbers. The US has a lot of streets that churn out wrecks at record pace. We also have a lot of unlicensed drivers. We also do a lot of highway driving in large vehicles... the size of our vehicles doesn't indicate to me that Americans are "immature" or "incapable of handling a vehicle properly". It indicates to me that we like big vehicles, which do more damage when they wreck.

Perhaps you meant to say "Americans' vehicles are too large for proper control at high speed".



I don't usually see lots of stomping on brakes and slow turning on high speed highways. But this is an indication that these people don't understand the handling limitations of their vehicle.

Perhaps you meant to say "Americans aren't knowledgable enough of their vehicle's capabilities" instead of "incapable of handling a vehicle properly".



Perhaps you meant to say "Americans do not pay sufficent attention at the current speed limits, and would likely continue to pay insufficient attention at higher limits."



I don't think America's drivers are great, and probably not even as good as Germany's. But I also don't think Americans are "too immature and incapable of handling a vehicle properly". There's nothing inherently inferior about Americans, and there's no reason to think that there is no way to implement an unlimited speed limit highway in America from a driver's skill point of view.



It is cool.

Perhaps he meant to say what he said.

In general, Americans think driving is steering. They'll crawl along at 10 under the limit and then slam the gas to race a yellow light. They don't receive good training, usually what they have is done by the school's football coaches in their "spare time." They start driving at the worst possible age, because it's not possible for an old fart to teach a teenager ANYTHING, as teenagers know everything by instinct, and old farts are hopelessly out of date with the times and don't understand ANYTHING about the real world. They can't anticipate traffic by looking beyond the hood ornament. When the light turns green, that's when they look at cross traffic to make sure it's clear (resulting in 5 or 6 seconds of nothing, as opposed to paying attention to traffic flow while waiting for the light.) The shiny thing hanging from the windshield is for hair or makeup, it serves no other purpose.

The American driver's problem is inattention. They don't know how to watch traffic, they don't know how to watch their mirrors, they don't know how to look anywhere but 30 feet straight ahead, or somewhere inside the car.

After a crash, it's always, "I didn't see him." "He came out of nowhere." "He wasn't there, then he was."

All of these translate to, "I wasn't looking."

As for knowing the car and its capabilities, I've read that most people are uncomfortable at a quarter of a g. You can get that much g in a rocking chair!!!! I HATE driving in the rain, because folks think they're gonna die any minute now. 25 in a 45, 45 on the Interstate, all because they think the wet surface represents imminent doom. Nobody understands that without standing water, you simply won't skid just because the road's wet. Not till about 55 or 60. (Obviously, and inch or two of standing water is different.) Our town's main street has an S curve in it that becomes a bottleneck, because leading traffic will not exceed 30 until they're out of the curve. The curve could be had at 80, staying in your own lane. But OMG, the forces! We must be slow and careful! That's how Americans are trained.

Trained by their football coach, by their insurance company, by their parents, and by the media. EVERY safety campaign for drivers involves speed. Maybe seat belts, which for some reason we're (as a nation) also very stupid about. "I don't want to be trapped in a burning car!" Puh-LEASE. Cars don't explode like the movies. There hasn't been a burning car crash since the last Pinto went to the junkyard.

There is a level of sarcasm in this post, and perhaps I generalize a bit, but as I said in my first post in this thread, if we could fix #9, we would fix EVERYTHING.

 

[Danoff]

In general, Americans think driving is steering. They'll crawl along at 10 under the limit and then slam the gas to race a yellow light. They don't receive good training, usually what they have is done by the school's football coaches in their "spare time." They start driving at the worst possible age, because it's not possible for an old fart to teach a teenager ANYTHING, as teenagers know everything by instinct, and old farts are hopelessly out of date with the times and don't understand ANYTHING about the real world. They can't anticipate traffic by looking beyond the hood ornament. When the light turns green, that's when they look at cross traffic to make sure it's clear (resulting in 5 or 6 seconds of nothing, as opposed to paying attention to traffic flow while waiting for the light.) The shiny thing hanging from the windshield is for hair or makeup, it serves no other purpose.

Horrendous, pessimistic, cynical generalization that simply isn't true. You've described the worst possible driver and explained that because America most certianly has some drivers that fit that category (of which I'm convinced even Germany, the motherland of driving skill ordained directly from God himself, has a few), one can generalize this sort of behavior to all Americans.

Ironically, I'm expecting dozens of American GTP members to chime in agreeing with you - even though each one of them proves your statement incorrect just by agreeing.

The American driver's problem is inattention. They don't know how to watch traffic, they don't know how to watch their mirrors, they don't know how to look anywhere but 30 feet straight ahead, or somewhere inside the car.

After a crash, it's always, "I didn't see him." "He came out of nowhere." "He wasn't there, then he was."

All of these translate to, "I wasn't looking."

I think that's just a problem with bad drivers in general.

As for knowing the car and its capabilities, I've read that most people are uncomfortable at a quarter of a g. You can get that much g in a rocking chair!!!! I HATE driving in the rain, because folks think they're gonna die any minute now. 25 in a 45, 45 on the Interstate, all because they think the wet surface represents imminent doom. Nobody understands that without standing water, you simply won't skid just because the road's wet. Not till about 55 or 60. (Obviously, and inch or two of standing water is different.)

I watched my buddy hit a patch of standing water and roll his car multiple times... I don't assume there isn't standing water on the road anymore. I wouldn't recommend you do either.

 

[wfooshee]

Horrendous, pessimistic, cynical generalization that simply isn't true. You've described the worst possible driver and explained that because America most certianly has some drivers that fit that category (of which I'm convinced even Germany, the motherland of driving skill ordained directly from God himself, has a few), one can generalize this sort of behavior to all Americans.

I said as much in my last sentence, but I maintain that the generalization IS true of the great majority of American drivers. Americans do not treat cars with the respect and attention they require. Automobiles are not appliances, they are heavy machinery, and improper operation can result in death or serious injury, sometimes to large numbers of people at a time. The kind of warning that comes on EVERYTHING we buy, except cars. I DO pay attention to traffic around me while I drive, to the point of observing the behavior of other drivers. Maybe twice a day do I see someone look in a mirror. Once a week will I see someone at the head of the line at a red light watching cross traffic so he'll be ready when the light changes. I see people ignore ambulances, both by not moving over out of the way, and by crossing an intersection in front of the screaming siren. I can be at a point on the road ahead of the guy storming and weaving 'cause he's in a hurry, simply by looking a little bit farther and knowing what traffic is doing, without speeding.

Call it attentiveness, call it situational awareness, whatever. Nearly nobody I meet on the road has it. That's not a generalization, that's an experienced observation.

As for international drivers, I have only elderly Canadians to compare with, as we have a high number of winter visitors (retirees) from Canada. Let's just say it gets worse in the winter.

I watched my buddy hit a patch of standing water and roll his car multiple times... I don't assume there isn't standing water on the road anymore. I wouldn't recommend you do either.

Agreed, and I make no such assumption, either. But wet pavement and standing water have an entirely different appearance. In daylight it's easier, so at night I won't argue with the road. Being Floridian, I can't say anything about ice or snow, having NO experience with either, but we get plenty of rain.

 

[Danoff]

I said as much in my last sentence, but I maintain that the generalization IS true of the great majority of American drivers. Americans do not treat cars with the respect and attention they require. Automobiles are not appliances, they are heavy machinery, and improper operation can result in death or serious injury, sometimes to large numbers of people at a time. The kind of warning that comes on EVERYTHING we buy, except cars. I DO pay attention to traffic around me while I drive, to the point of observing the behavior of other drivers. Maybe twice a day do I see someone look in a mirror. Once a week will I see someone at the head of the line at a red light watching cross traffic so he'll be ready when the light changes. I see people ignore ambulances, both by not moving over out of the way, and by crossing an intersection in front of the screaming siren. I can be at a point on the road ahead of the guy storming and weaving 'cause he's in a hurry, simply by looking a little bit farther and knowing what traffic is doing, without speeding.

I have personally met very few people that drive the way you are describing. I mean, it's not like you're talking about particularly advanced driving techniques here. Check your mirrors, pay attention to signal timing/cross traffic, pay attention to ambulances, don't drive like a maniac swerving in between other cars... these are things nearly everyone does.

Take a look at the road and make a mental note every time you see someone driving well. I think you'll rack up a bunch more than the number of times you see people driving badly - you just remember the bad ones a lot more.

I live in LA. Nowhere in America have I been where the people drive worse than in LA. I've had to alter my own driving technique just to be able to get around here. As bad as LA is, I wouldn't say even a tenth of the drivers fit the description you laid out. But if 1 in 10 cars drove the way you described, it would be HIGHLY noticeable.

Agreed, and I make no such assumption, either. But wet pavement and standing water have an entirely different appearance. In daylight it's easier, so at night I won't argue with the road.

Rainy days tend to be dark, visibility tends to be low.

 

[Wolfe]

I guess you meant to say America's restrictions on driving skill to obtain a license are too lax.

That's only a part of it.

A lot goes into those numbers.

Indeed. That's why I didn't base my entire post on them.

Perhaps you meant to say "Americans aren't knowledgable enough of their vehicle's capabilities" instead of "incapable of handling a vehicle properly".

Those two sentences mean the same thing in the context of my statement.

Perhaps you meant to say "Americans do not pay sufficent attention at the current speed limits, and would likely continue to pay insufficient attention at higher limits."

Only a part of it.

There's nothing inherently inferior about Americans...

No comment.

...and there's no reason to think that there is no way to implement an unlimited speed limit highway in America from a driver's skill point of view.

You know those highschool experiences that you look back on and go, "wow, what a dumb idea that was"...? One of my own experiences was going out driving with a few friends and showing this girl (who was driving her dad's Buick) a long, straight rural road north of town where you can hit high speeds easily. With absolutely no factors besides her, the car, and a perfectly straight road, she managed to lose control and swerve off into the ditch.

Other than perhaps the willingness to try something like that, the only difference between her and any other average american driver is experience. She was taught the same things that any other american driver is taught -- 1. the rules of the road, 2. what the signs mean, 3. where the steering wheel, gas pedal, and brake pedal are, 4. to fear hydroplaning above everything else in the entire world, and 5. to steer into a slide (the girl certainly remembered #5 -- she overcorrected twice before sliding off the pavement backwards).

However, although it could certainly be improved, our driver's education system doesn't really deserve the brunt of the blame. What makes things worse is that americans have little to no incentive to learn anything more, and establish poor habits. For example, the prevalance of autotragic transmissions in this country causes drivers to pay far less attention than they would if they had three pedals and stirred their own gears, and encourages other non-driving-related activities, such as text messaging, eating, or applying makeup. Meanwhile, as wfooshee pointed out, cornering is thought of as an annoyance and is avoided when possible (even in the construction of our roads), which means that the average driver doesn’t even know how to take a corner at 3/10ths, much less maintain control in any emergency situation.


With proper education and, more importantly, a shift in the way this nation thinks about cars and driving, sure, americans could handle a high-speed highway. Driving fast in a straight line (or a counter-clockwise oval) is what this country loves, anyway. But as things are now, between the ricers who think they're the gR34t3sT dR1v3Rs 3v4R and the average Joes/Janes who wouldn't even begin to know what being a good driver entails, I'm not even slightly convinced.

Ironically, I'm expecting dozens of American GTP members to chime in agreeing with you - even though each one of them proves your statement incorrect just by agreeing.

By being a member here, they've implied that they're a car enthusiast to some extent, and appreciate racing videogames that, at the very least, are more true-to-life than something like Need for Speed. I don't know about wfooshee, but that excludes them from my "average american driver" generalization.

Whether or not they're any good at driving remains a question, but they're still different from the people who think of a car as an appliance.

 

[Max_DC]

Well I think that we only have to be precise.


It's not that American people are born as bad drivers who will never be able to learn proper driving.


Danoff for example seems to understand it a little bit like that. And of course that is wrong. But how should the majority, the average drivers, be really good, when they all have AT transmissions, mostly straight streets without curves, just corners ( well of course you also have curvy streets in rural areas, but most people drive in big cities with typical blocks ( we don't have that in europe )) and on huge highways with a driving licence they got so easy without the need of a professional driving teacher.
You simply don't have so many small streets, no Autobahns etc, which means you have no practice on hard tracks. Also over 90% of our cars have MT.
You can't drive the Indy 500 oval with 65 mph and AT all life and then be as experienced as somebody who is driving the Nurburgring with 110 mph and MT all day long.

You know, the majority of people in Arizona probably suck at skiing compared to the majority of people in a skiing area in Canada.
Of course the worlds best ski driver can still be from Arizona, but the majority doesn't practice, simply because they have no snow and therefor no possibilty / need to practice.

 

[Danoff]

Indeed. That's why I didn't base my entire post on them.

Sounds like they're useless.

Those two sentences mean the same thing in the context of my statement.

I think that's the root of our disagreement.

No comment.

Thinking anything else is prejudice.

...the prevalance of autotragic transmissions in this country causes drivers to pay far less attention than they would if they had three pedals and stirred their own gears, and encourages other non-driving-related activities, such as text messaging, eating, or applying makeup.

I wouldn't say "encourages" so much as "enables".

Meanwhile, as wfooshee pointed out, cornering is thought of as an annoyance and is avoided when possible (even in the construction of our roads), which means that the average driver doesn’t even know how to take a corner at 3/10ths, much less maintain control in any emergency situation.

...and because they're Americans this kind of blanket generalization is OK, and implying that they're too stupid to figure it out is obviously fair game.

With proper education...

Education can be over rated. We don't all learn everything from someone else. It is possible to teach yourself these things.

By being a member here, they've implied that they're a car enthusiast to some extent, and appreciate racing videogames that, at the very least, are more true-to-life than something like Need for Speed. I don't know about wfooshee, but that excludes them from my "average american driver" generalization.

Whether or not they're any good at driving remains a question, but they're still different from the people who think of a car as an appliance.

The question is not whether they're the average American driver. The question is whether a blanket statement like "They can't anticipate traffic by looking beyond the hood ornament" is justifiable.

You know, the majority of people in Arizona probably suck at skiing compared to the majority of people in a skiing area in Canada.
Of course the worlds best ski driver can still be from Arizona, but the majority doesn't practice, simply because they have no snow and therefor no possibilty / need to practice.

...and if the argument were about whether Americans simply need to opportunity to learn. I'd agree with you. But the opportunity to learn is exactly what is being argued against here. What I'm fighting is the notion that Americans cannot handle the opportunity to learn - they cannot handle high speed roads or roads with lots of curves etc. etc. - that such roads could not work in this country because Americans are fundamentally inferior.

If Wolfe had come here and said "I think high speed roads in America are a great idea, because it would give this country an opportunity to learn more about their cars and become more like Germans (who we all know are Gods behind the wheel, without exception)". If he had said that, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

 

[Famine]

Americans ... don't receive good training

I think this should summarise your, and Wolfe's, position.

 

[wfooshee]

I think this should summarise your, and Wolfe's, position.

Exactly. Americans aren't stupider than anybody else, they're just less educated in driving skills. They want to do things while being conveyed, and they feel the act of being conveyed should not require any attention. They don't realize that it should require ALL of their attention, because they've never been exposed to it that way.

Americans don't have the opportunity to learn anything better, because they don't have the REQUIREMENT to learn any better. An enthusiast can go to high performance school and learn how to react to different situations with lane-change drills, wet skidpad, skid cars (those cars with the hydraulic lifts wheels at the corners to induce loss of traction) and so on. The general public is completely uninterested in the time and expense of such a school, but what they get in driver's ed is useless.

As I said before, the state of Florida has no clue as to my ability to drive, to see, to hear, to think. They don't know if I can tell red from green, or yellow from white. Yet every 6 years they mail me a new license on request.

Americans don't need to have the Bondurant high performance level of training, but they need to know enough to not let off the brake when the anti-lock starts pulsing. They need to know how to set the side mirrors. They need to see how a car reacts in an emergency. When their first emergency experience is on the highway, with lives on the line, then something is wrong with the training program.

Imagine if aviation were handled the same way. Unthinkable, right? Why is it OK with cars?

 

[///M-Spec]

As for knowing the car and its capabilities, I've read that most people are uncomfortable at a quarter of a g. You can get that much g in a rocking chair!!!! I HATE driving in the rain, because folks think they're gonna die any minute now. 25 in a 45, 45 on the Interstate, all because they think the wet surface represents imminent doom. Nobody understands that without standing water, you simply won't skid just because the road's wet. Not till about 55 or 60. (Obviously, and inch or two of standing water is different.)

Well even wet pavement without any standing water will reduce grip since all you need is some water molecules sticking in those microscopic holes where the bits of rubber want to go but can't. Granted 25 in a 45 is carrying it a little too far, but you should at least increase your following distance to the car in front when it rains.

You mentioned having a Florida license in another post. I lived for 12 years in North Florida and every time it rained I noticed almost no one adjusted their speed nor their following distance.

I'd cruise down the Turnpike near Orlando or I-10 near Tallahassee when a mid summer afternoon deluge hits (you know the ones I'm talking about) and people would just keep truckin' along like it was dry and sunny... riding each other's bumpers like usual.

It seemed like the only thing that would slow people down would be the real frog-strangler wrath of god type rains that reduced visibility to 5 feet. You know the ones where the car in front of you just disappears even though it has it's hazard blinkers on.

I used to work right by I-10. I distinctly remember one week when there was a wreck on it every day it rained, during the rain or right afterward. People in Florida just did NOT seem to have any idea how to operate their vehicles when it rained. Maybe because it rains so damned much there they just ignore it.

I agree with everything else in your post, BTW. I just can't really agree with this part.


M

 

[Max_DC]

...and if the argument were about whether Americans simply need to opportunity to learn. I'd agree with you. But the opportunity to learn is exactly what is being argued against here. What I'm fighting is the notion that Americans cannot handle the opportunity to learn - they cannot handle high speed roads or roads with lots of curves etc. etc. - that such roads could not work in this country because Americans are fundamentally inferior.

If Wolfe had come here and said "I think high speed roads in America are a great idea, because it would give this country an opportunity to learn more about their cars and become more like Germans (who we all know are Gods behind the wheel, without exception)". If he had said that, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

Then you should agree with me , since I think (and wrote in the above posts) that I think it would be a good idea to abolish the general speed limit and give the Americans the possibility to drive fast on certain big highways etc.

But first of all you should establish a certain technical standard ( I wouldn't want to see one of those Pimp my ride cars ( before the modification) at 130 mph, losing parts every 3 seconds) and basic rules ( no overtaking on the left side, never ! ) . Professional driving schools as a must for getting a driving licence would be great, too... So after a few years you could simply get rid of the speed limit without the need to invest billions of dallars into a special Autobahn... you already have the streets for it !

 

[Combustion]

The first thing I'd recommend to any new driver is to take a cheap, beat up old car to a remote large space and mess around.

Try seeing how fast you can stop the car from 40mph, with/without ABS.

See what happens when you turn the wheel too fast while doing 10mph, then try it in increments up to about 30mph (no faster though, you might roll the car if the grip is good enough, although you'll figure out the limits)

Try a handbrake turn, yes they are fun, but the point is to see how the car reacts when you're in a spin, learn where the limit is before you cannot regain control of the car, experiment which methods work to stop a spin once you are in one.

One of the most important tests: At 30-40mph, lock the brakes and try turning to miss an imaginary obstacle, then try the same thing but letting go of the brakes. Practicing that will help you in a real emergency situation where most people panic (as they've never experienced locked wheels) and crash where as if they relaxed a little, they could easily avoid an accident.

When on a curve at a fastish speed, it's very bad to press the brakes other than very slightly, see what happens when you press the brake hard while turning (not too fast, start slow, 10mph then go up gradually).

If anything, this will give you some experience on how cars react in situations apart from normal. When I had an accident it was by locking the brakes, I panicked, I was 18.

Sometimes the gas is better than the brake, though only with experience can you tell. Eg on a motorway you're on the left lane, after a blind left turn some idiot in front of you has no working brake lights and you realise too late, there is no way you can stop in time, and checking your right mirror shows an oncoming truck coming down the middle lane about 50 yards back. Do you brake as much as possible and hit the guy at 25mph, most people would, or you could punch it and move to the clear middle lane. This was a personal experience.

 

[wfooshee]

It seemed like the only thing that would slow people down would be the real frog-strangler wrath of god type rains that reduced visibility to 5 feet. You know the ones where the car in front of you just disappears even though it has it's hazard blinkers on.

Yeah, for most the Interstate is 80, by God, get out of my way! even in Noah rain.

I'll drop to 50 or even 45 when most folks are parking under the overpasses to wait it out. Rain like that is in squall lines, and if you park to wait for it, you'll be there 20 or 30 minutes, if you drive out of it, even creeping along, you'll be clear in 2 or 3 minutes.

The rain makes this situation worse: the person in the left lane won't move over till you get right on their bumper. They're not watching the mirror so they didn't notice you approach from a light-year away to right on them in 15 seconds, but if you stay safely back, they assume you're OK back there. They don't move until you crowd them. If you flash to ask for passing room, they get all pissed off about it and slow down, like flashing says, "Move, punk!" instead of, "Excuse me, please, I'd like by." Like I said, if it's raining hard, this is just worse, because they don't care that your new 225/50s pump enough water to reverse Niagara Falls, they know that their minivan is right at the edge of disaster at 50.

Cruise control wars are the best, rain or shine. It takes the soccer mom (Danoff is loving this stereotyping, I know and I admit it's not EVERYBODY, but it's more than enough to definitely be a strange problem) 6 miles to pass a semi, and once she's clear, she SPEEDS UP to change lanes. WhyTF couldn't she speed up to make the pass?

BTW, I'm in Panama City, used to run Dixie Region Solo II (G-Stock Probe, black) every month in the mid to late 90s, and also Gulf Coast Region in Pensacola. I went to Wiregrass a couple of times, but not often. Bought a house, can't afford the tires any more. . . Did you run there with us?