UK, JPN drivers are better than US drivers?

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I was looking through ranking of each nation and my rank is around 80s in US but the same lap time will be in rank 150s in UK and not even in 250s in Japan. is it that us American drivers lack in skillful driving or there are more people playing in UK and in Japan? I know for sure than US population is 300million, UK population is around 60milion and Japan is around 120million. The fastest time in japan is 3:23.077 by takeuchi which i think is the fastest in the world.👍
 
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if you look at the sales of GT5 prologue in each nation, US sold 0.83 million units, Japan .55million units and it sold around 2 million units in Europe.
 
I'm not sure. I would still guess that the uk has less players than the US. Especially judging by this forum. This is good for my ego though :P, thanks.
 
If this was NASCAR, it'll all be Americans up top. I think its just a matter of preference. It just happens that road racing is not that popular in America, i don't think skills plays a part. Anyone can be fast with the right amount of exposure in a certain discipline.
 
I'd wager a bet that people in the US arn't as interested, for 2 reasons;

1) The prize is not GT Academy, it is Indy 500 tickets. It is a lesser prize some may not be willing to put the effort in for. (The reason the Japan players are doing so well is probably due to the 250 free copies of GT5. Also the fact it is a japanese based game. If there was a free copy of GT5 on the cards i would put so many more hours into it. Top 250 is easier than top 20, and there is a certain prize)

2) The Xbox 360 has sold way more units in the US, anyone interested in racing/driving games is probably still playing Forza 3, which is perfectly understandeable, it also relates to point 1, Indy 500 tickets are not worth the effort, so it won't attract people with ambitions to become racing drivers. Lucas Ordonez only bought a PS3 and GT5P because he read about GT academy in a magazine - or so he mentioned in an interview. If i read about an Indy 500 ticket competition, i wouldn't be too bothered if i didn't already have a PS3.

I can't think of any other reasons.
 
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I think it does indicate something: Japanese kids are probably more dedicated (& obsessive/compulsive) about GT than in any other country & have put in the time, & developed the skills to make them super-competitive. I've got to guess that prizes are less significant than pride when it comes to motivation ...
 
East Asian people are well known for their delicacy and fine work of product and service ranging from nano technology to top non-invasive surgery and stem cell research. Maybe what it takes to be a good driver is delicate work to master every corner even to a fraction of milisecond.
 
East Asian people are well known for their delicacy and fine work of product and service ranging from nano technology to top non-invasive surgery and stem cell research. Maybe what it takes to be a good driver is delicate work to master every corner even to a fraction of milisecond.

I agree that in the world of sim racing, being delicate and having immense precision with your inputs is what separates the absolute best from those who are very good. And the the drivers of asian decent definitely seem to have bags of this judging by the world wide rankings.

Although I also find it interesting that you don't really see that many real race car drivers of asian decent at the highest level of motorsports (F1), or who are that successful, where IMO the absolute delicacy with the controls isn't as important as having the shear nerve and the feel of g forces acting upon you and the car.

But I'm sure there are many other reasons why this is the case for both subjects. Like playing video games at a very young age to improve hand-eye coordination, or getting started in karting at a very earlier age with a lot of opportunities to develop.
 
East Asian people are well known for their delicacy and fine work of product and service ranging from nano technology to top non-invasive surgery and stem cell research. Maybe what it takes to be a good driver is delicate work to master every corner even to a fraction of milisecond.

Dayumn... and we get all that for being sucky at basketball? Go us![/sarcasm]

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timeattack beat me to it... if we're so darn good, why are there so few Formula 1 and WRC drivers from Asia?

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Answer: it's regional preference. Japan and Europe are more heavily biased towards GT, unlike the US market, which is split between GT and Forza. Same in racing. F1 and WRC is a mostly European sport... with European venues... though Finns produce many champions in both specifically because of the type of roads and driving they do on a daily basis... which prepares Finnish drivers, from an early age, for performance driving.

F1 isn't an American (US) thing because there's no foundation for it, no set feeder series (as preparation), and there's less market penetration.

There are Americans who excel at (video-game) driving, but they're spread out all over the place (in gaming terms).
 
I still maintain there are slight differences between regions caused by different hardware, for nstance the PS3's RTC (Real Time Clock) will surely differ slightly between hardware builds and power supply frequencies.
 
Although I also find it interesting that you don't really see that many real race car drivers of asian decent at the highest level of motorsports (F1)

Motorsport in itself and more so F1 isn't particularly judged or based on the most talent, it's sponsorship, media interest and various other factors.

You could have a Micheal Schumacher in Japan but if he has very poor english and/or little sponsorship he's never going to get a big drive in a competitive team.

I haven't fully expanded these points but I'm sure we get the idea? 👍

Sticking my neck out here but generally European Drivers > American Drivers... Only based on scraps of evidence ofcourse, Mansell winning Indy in his rookie 1993 while Andretti failed to make any impression in F1
 
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if you look at the sales of GT5 prologue in each nation, US sold 0.83 million units, Japan .55million units and it sold around 2 million units in Europe.
That's a big reason.
I'm not sure. I would still guess that the uk has less players than the US. Especially judging by this forum. This is good for my ego though :P, thanks.
If you want to check, use a new psn id, and run about a 2:20 second lap. There's approx 80,000 US members with better times than that, and about 70K better than 2:10 with the stock car, didn't see any difference between stock and tuned.
I'd wager a bet that people in the US arn't as interested, for 2 reasons;

1) The prize is not GT Academy, it is Indy 500 tickets. It is a lesser prize some may not be willing to put the effort in for. (The reason the Japan players are doing so well is probably due to the 250 free copies of GT5. Also the fact it is a japanese based game. If there was a free copy of GT5 on the cards i would put so many more hours into it. Top 250 is easier than top 20, and there is a certain prize)

2) The Xbox 360 has sold way more units in the US, anyone interested in racing/driving games is probably still playing Forza 3, which is perfectly understandeable, it also relates to point 1, Indy 500 tickets are not worth the effort, so it won't attract people with ambitions to become racing drivers. Lucas Ordonez only bought a PS3 and GT5P because he read about GT academy in a magazine - or so he mentioned in an interview. If i read about an Indy 500 ticket competition, i wouldn't be too bothered if i didn't already have a PS3.

I can't think of any other reasons.
Probably one of the biggest reasons as well.
For example, here in the lovely US, I have no shot at victory, but it is possible for me to make the top 20. But what do I get for anything other than 1st place? A download voucher for GT PSP, something I don't have, nor do I even want, because I won't be caught dead paying over a hundred dollars for handheld video gaming.

Let alone how much harder I and others might just try if the biggest prize of all was at stake.
 
Motorsport in itself and more so F1 isn't particularly judged or based on the most talent, it's sponsorship, media interest and various other factors.

You could have a Micheal Schumacher in Japan but if he has very poor english and/or little sponsorship he's never going to get a big drive in a competitive team.

I haven't fully expanded these points but I'm sure we get the idea? 👍

Sticking my neck out here but generally European Drivers > American Drivers... Only based on scraps of evidence ofcourse, Mansell winning Indy in his rookie 1993 while Andretti failed to make any impression in F1
Regards your Japanese F1 driver analogy, you might want to rethink. They scrape any F1 material they can get and milk it dry. Honda got Takuma Sato into F1 and when he didn't do anything decent, they sacked him. Japan took a dislike to Honda for sacking a Japanese "star" and thus created Super Aguri. Yep - Honda created and funded a whole other team for one Japanese driver.

Takuma was fast and fearless, but a Schumacher he was not yet he still got every oppertunity thrown his way because he was Japanese.

You're right in your point about you need the whole package of an F1 driver and talent isn't always key. But unfortunately this doesn't wash with Japanese F1 drivers how you've described :)
 
I think it's mostly due to interest, and/or lack thereof.
Legitimate road racing isn't as big in the US, as it is pretty much anywhere else in the world, so less people care also.
So I somehwhat agree with masicampo, that if somehow a NASCAR game got big worldwide, You would see a lot more fast US drivers.

That and I don't have a wheel yet, when I get a wheel, you know, of course, the US will hold a top 10 worldwide time ;) :D LOL
 
@GTP_rpm Fair points but I guess I didn't explain myself too well, look at Nakajima, driving for Williams while Toyota are the powerplant, now that deals over he's gone. Talent or not it's about money more than it should be, Senna has the same situation with Campos. Kobayashi with Sauber next year.. £30m in Panasonic sponsorship if rumours are to be believed. I just meant there could be far faster people around who never had the funds to even continue beyond a karting career or the step after that and rarely at such an early stage is the talent spotted to recieve funding from a sponsor. Ergo the talent in itself is often missed, currently Paul di Resta may never get an F1 seat, yet he beat the current rising star Seb Vettel when they were team mates in Formula 3 2005 season. If talent alone dictating who drove where I could see at least one third of the F1 field being ditched.

Lastly I mention Mansell again, a man who is up there with the best F1 drivers of all time and was borderline in even having a career due to funding.
 
Answer: it's regional preference. Japan and Europe are more heavily biased towards GT, unlike the US market, which is split between GT and Forza. Same in racing. F1 and WRC is a mostly European sport... with European venues... though Finns produce many champions in both specifically because of the type of roads and driving they do on a daily basis... which prepares Finnish drivers, from an early age, for performance driving.

F1 isn't an American (US) thing because there's no foundation for it, no set feeder series (as preparation), and there's less market penetration.

There are Americans who excel at (video-game) driving, but they're spread out all over the place (in gaming terms).

Excellent points 👍
 
If it helps without a wheel I'd be 94th in the UK :D

EDIT: something I've noticed, and this may be some of it also, for example, the US current shining star, GTP_timeattack.
He's 21st worldwide currently, but I havent seen his time change in at least a week. And I have to say I'm sure his time could come down, but he's still in first, so why bother?
I could be wrong, but I have to say if I had his time, and was in the lead for my country by .350, I probably wouldn't be bothered to much more anyway, given the extent that the very top players will play to gain a little bit... I'm trying to say there isn't enough reward for any of the top 10-15 US players to bother going any faster.
 
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@GTP_rpm Fair points but I guess I didn't explain myself too well, look at Nakajima, driving for Williams while Toyota are the powerplant, now that deals over he's gone. Talent or not it's about money more than it should be, Senna has the same situation with Campos. Kobayashi with Sauber next year.. £30m in Panasonic sponsorship if rumours are to be believed. I just meant there could be far faster people around who never had the funds to even continue beyond a karting career or the step after that and rarely at such an early stage is the talent spotted to recieve funding from a sponsor. Ergo the talent in itself is often missed, currently Paul di Resta may never get an F1 seat, yet he beat the current rising star Seb Vettel when they were team mates in Formula 3 2005 season. If talent alone dictating who drove where I could see at least one third of the F1 field being ditched.

Lastly I mention Mansell again, a man who is up there with the best F1 drivers of all time and was borderline in even having a career due to funding.

Not to mention that SATO was the best racer of all time.
 
Motorsport in itself and more so F1 isn't particularly judged or based on the most talent, it's sponsorship, media interest and various other factors.

You could have a Micheal Schumacher in Japan but if he has very poor english and/or little sponsorship he's never going to get a big drive in a competitive team.

I haven't fully expanded these points but I'm sure we get the idea? 👍

Sticking my neck out here but generally European Drivers > American Drivers... Only based on scraps of evidence ofcourse, Mansell winning Indy in his rookie 1993 while Andretti failed to make any impression in F1

That's not true... if there was a crazy fast driver then he would definitely be in F1 (if he wanted to be) and he would simply learn english... the fact is f1 is bigger in europe than anywhere else, and that is why most f1 drivers are from europe.
 
I think there are more fast European times, in general, because of the GT Academy vs. an Indy 500 trip. If I had a chance at the GT Academy, my times would be faster than they are right now... maybe not as fast as TA's, but faster than my current times.
 
Some of us are just overweight, that's why we are slow!:sly: Try adding 50 pounds to your race car and see how fast you go!!!:sly::sly: On topic yes most Americans are slower than the rest of the world! The only reason there a few fast drivers on the US leader board, is because they are non human!!!:sly::sly::sly:




:grumpy:John
 
Skill has nothing to do with nationality ...



... if you don't count the finns, just the world human population ... :dopey:
 
Forward: Upon proof reading of this post I realized I've had to make alot of generalizations and summaries for the sake of trying to stay brief. To that point I realize there are some broad statements here. For the sake of this discussion try not to get hung up on them for I couldn't think of a better way to write some of the thoughts below without them.

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I've had this philosophical discussion with many racer friends (fyi I currently race or have raced snowboards, skateboards, mountain bikes, road bikes and am a runner and cross country skier most at very high levels, semi-pro to pro) about how Americans don't understand racing.

I'll set aside endurance related race sports (i.e. running, cycling, cross country skiing, etc) and focus just on speed events for this discussion.

In the US racing is all about "the show", not so much on technique and pure speed. Look at the state of what snowboard racing (and to a lesser degree ski racing) has become in the US. It's something more akin to roller-derby than anything. It's the difference between the X-Games and the Olympics. One is about crashes and "the show", forced drama and pointless actions and the other is about precision, training and endurance. I'm not saying boarder-cross athletes don't train, they do, but even the top of the top in that respective race series (snowboard or skier-cross) will say it's much less intensive than proper board/ski racing. I had a chance to talk to Daron Rahlves about this last season (FYI he is a ex FIS world cup ski racer, next to Bode Miller and Olympic former favorite who retired from WC racing and is now racing skier-cross events in the X-Games). He told me that his level of training now is less than half of what it was when he was on the top end of the FIS WC tour. In fact most of his "training" is just going out and skiing with his buddies and doing a few hours a week in the gym in strength training. Well under the 8-10 hours a day a FIS WC skier trains (in the gym and on the hill).

More related look at the state of motorsport in the USA. I won't poo-poo NASCAR or Indy car drivers saying they are hacks. They aren't. But you can't compare the conditioning, training dedication and overall skill it takes to drive in a top US series to even a feeder series in Europe (i.e. NASCAR or Indy Cars vs. GP2 or most touring car series, not even F1). Road racing in the USA is a sideshow at best compared to ovals and alot of that has to do with "the show" (i.e. passing, crashes, drama).

Look at the other popular thing that passes for motorsport in the USA. Drag racing. Again...drama, crashes...a "good show".

Americans generally like "power", brute-force over finesse. Compare American football to soccer to see a clear difference in priorities or American tennis players to European (i.e Roddick vs. Fedder). Generally bigger, stronger and usually dumber is rewarder in US athletics (there are opposites to this in the US but they are far from the norm)

I've come to this conclusion over the years. Europeans "get" racing. Racing and the discipline it takes go back a long time in Europe and European tradition. Europeans like racing most things (ever see Semi-truck racing in Europe?) and racing is as big (if not bigger in some places) than stick & ball sports. Ski racers in Switzerland or Austria are as big, if not bigger, than NFL stars in the US. Therefore the training and discipline required to be at the very top level of racing (any sport) is rewarded. But beyond that Europeans generally appreciate the finesse it takes in sport, over brute force that is. Watch a F1 race with your typical American NASCAR fan and they will drone on how boring it is, no passing blah blah blah...they don't see all the finesse on track (generally they don't see the finesse on track in a NASCAR race either)... most Europeans will "get" it when they see it though, even if they aren't a fan of said sport/race.

As for Asia. Racing doesn't have a long tradition there, any kind of racing (motorsport goes back to maybe the 60s and then only in Japan and mildly). But what id deeply set in most asian cultures, especially Japanese, is a focus on discipline and self control along with sacrifice. F1 has had many Japanese drivers, but never any really GOOD drivers. That comes down more to the tradition and funding that dedication and drive. In racing where Asian athletes have come to the fore-front they have dominated (what comes to mind are mostly endurance sports though, which is all discipline and dedication). In relation to video games it's no surprise Japanese gamers are some of the best in the world. In an activity where almost superhuman sacrifice and discipline (almost to the point of fanaticism) matters I'll always put my money on the Japanese guy. That sort of dedication goes back to almost the founding of Japanese culture (and further back in Chinese culture).

So with Gran Turismo you have two things working against most American players. Europeans have a love, understanding and dedication of road racing and Japanese players have a fanatical dedication to task (video game in this case) that together spell doom for American GT players. Even more so they doom casual gamers from remotely competing with the top racers in the GT world. But then again that is true with most things. The local fast racer at your local ski hill or track wold get destroyed when up against a FIS world cup racer or a Schumi. That is the parallel we have in the GT community.

That isn't to say there aren't elite GT American racers, there are, but of the top 20 known names in OLR in the GT world maybe 2-3 are American (?).

Personally, I consider myself fast and better than average as a racer in GT. Back in the GT3/GT4 days I was within a second of the true elites in OLR and more recently I'm generally within 2 seconds of the elites, getting closer than that takes such dedication and time that unless I do have time I stop there. I have much less time to spend in GT now than I did back in GT3, but I'm no less dedicated to GT than I used to be. It's a matter of priorities.

Sure the physics are separating the casual gamer from the dedicated racer more and more but as with any elite level activity that is always the case. The playing field is level in the GT world, just because you aren't willing to put in the time and effort doesn't mean it's not far. You just have different priorities.

You wouldn't expect to go from the couch (metaphorically of course, let's say weekend warrior enthusiast level) to competing with whatever top level athlete you admire? Why would you expect the same in a video game (not just GT, but modern complex game)?

What is so appealing about the GT OLR world is that anyone from the casual gamer to the talentless enthusiast and everyone in-between can race and gauge themselves against world cup level elites. There are very few activities and even fewer sports than that is possible.

What makes an elite in the first place? Training, dedication and discipline (true of any activity done at an elite level). In endurance sports your own genetics can be a limiting factor but they don't apply here in the GT world. With a in-depth understanding of the physics of driving a car, reading a track and picking race lines - all of which can be "learned" - and then hours upon hours of practice, self analyzation and still more practice any of us can become one of these elite GT racers. Your own genetics don't play a role, though reflexes do, but given sim GT racing doesn't have g-loading it's to a much lesser desgree. Yes, maybe you need to invest in the right tools (i.e. a wheel in GT) but that is true in any sport/activity. In fact the cost for entry to be a elite racer in GT is low. You really only need a wheel (and there are one or two elite GT racers who still use a DS3). The big flat screen TV, race seat, etc etc aren't needed (though they can help).

There is a thread in the Prologue section asking racers to post pictures of their race setups. I remember being shocked to see a picture of one of the elite guy's setups which basically was a wheel cobbled together on a little desk with a 13" SD TV in effectively a little closet, yet he still managed those times he did. Look through that thread and you'll see a few posts from those elite names with their race setups (and alot of fancy race seats and 52" HDTVs of people 10+ secs off pace). It's very enlightening to look through and shows you that the field to be a elite, or even competitive (top 200) racer in GT is very even and flat.

It all comes down to the individual in the end.

Not everyone wants to sit for hours upon hours shaving .001 of their time. Not everyone has the time to even do that. But those that have the discipline, practice and time do and it's amazing to see what they are capable of. These GT elites are doing nothing special, nothing anyone can't do, and they aren't cheating. They are just more practiced.

Yes, maybe natural talent plays a role, but much less so in GT OLR. Natural talent comes in in real life or in tournament play. Think of it this way. As many fastest laps as Schumi had in F1 were any of them ideal or perfect? No, even Schumi would say so. But his magic came in being able to wrench those laps out of the car in a limited amount of time (as with any top racer or athlete respectively). In GT OLR it might take elite racer A say 4 hours to set that amazing hotlap time (just an example here) but it may take the elite racer B 40 hours to set the same time and racer C 400 hours to set a time 4 seconds slower. Given enough time and practice all three racers could most likely reach the same time (it's just one might go crazy before they did). So elite racer A and B meet in a head to head tournament (I excluded racer C in this example because they wouldn't make it to begin with). Elite racer A will generally come out on top given they can jump in faster and set that fast time (I will say natural talent/reflexes maybe comes into play here, or is it simply conditioning/practice?). In time limited racing, be it real racing or head to head GT racing the more practiced (let's say talented - be in natural or learned) will come generally come out on top. In real racing things like the ability to suppress fear, withstand g-loads, top level conditioning and even eye-sight have greater roots in natural ability/talent... but in simulation (Gran Turismo in the PS3) the field is for-the-most-part level.
 
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I agree that in the world of sim racing, being delicate and having immense precision with your inputs is what separates the absolute best from those who are very good. And the the drivers of asian decent definitely seem to have bags of this judging by the world wide rankings.

Although I also find it interesting that you don't really see that many real race car drivers of asian decent at the highest level of motorsports (F1), or who are that successful, where IMO the absolute delicacy with the controls isn't as important as having the shear nerve and the feel of g forces acting upon you and the car.

But I'm sure there are many other reasons why this is the case for both subjects. Like playing video games at a very young age to improve hand-eye coordination, or getting started in karting at a very earlier age with a lot of opportunities to develop.

Couldn't said any better.

That's how i feel chasing your ghost (or any ghost for that matter). It's like i'm doing open heart surgery.

The only thing i don't like about racing in GT is that to be uber fast you need a cirurgic precision that is not requiered in real life, because of the other factors involved.

An example would be a record lap with the 370Z in realf life on Indy. I'm sure the apexes and throttles wouldn't be as precise as the laps in the virtual world, because hey, real life does not have restarts and has a bunch of other things factoring in.

That precision is something that to me explain why OLR is not a perfect mirror of real world racing. (and why i think japanese drivers are better suited for)

If we take F1, power balances would probably mean UK>Germany>Brazil

but if we take the GT academy challenge, the strengh of the field is JPN>Spain>France

I'm not running for any prizes (my country is excluded from GT) but i'm running because i like the challenge. I don't think the prizes at stake have much to do with how the rankings are.
 
Skill has nothing to do with nationality ...



... if you don't count the finns, just the world human population ... :dopey:

:lol:




The Finns cheat. Their driver education system is race-school in a can, and their roads are the iciest anywhere. If every other country had the same degree of driver education they do, we might have a fighting chance. :ldopey:
 
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