Uncompetitive/Unrealistic AI Car Choices?

[Shant J.]

Hi all!

Just an observation: is it just me, or is the game matching the player up with AI cars that are either top fast or to slow sometimes?

As an example, I'll be using Forza 3's PI Points system as a reference -- please don't hate me for this.

In one of the Gamescom videos, the player is using a BMW M5 -- a mid-B Class car in FM3 -- and is put up against a Miura -- a mid-D Class car, along with cars such as the Audi R8 -- a low-A Class car -- all in the same race, along with even faster cars.

Prologue does this too -- for example, you see races with cars ranging from low-Cl Class (Audi TT) to Mid-B Class (NSX-R). Why is there such a difference in performance capabilities between the cars?

I'm using the FM3 PI Points as a reference as there is no sign of the PP System in the demos we've seen. Is the PP System going to be in GT5?

Any thoughts? I'm simply curious.

 

[Piotrov]

I have noticed that too and its quite annoying.

when you increase the difficulty its not the AI that gets better but rather the car class..

 

[SrRd RacinG]

There's only so many cars in the demo.

Did you see the Zonda in the demo? It's put up against cars who don't even have half its HP.

Just a demo.

 

[Matti_Dude]

Yeah it is only a demo so there will never be enough cars of around the same performance to compete. But Forza's class system isn't the be all and end all of classifying how quick a car is, so just because they are unbalanced in Forza it doesn't mean they are in real life. Although in this case I think you are right.

 

[Tornado]

This was a pretty notable problem with GTPSP as well. Hopefully, in arcade mode at least, PD will implement some sort of system where you can choose the cars the AI drive directly.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

There appears to be a new A-spec/B-spec points system of some kind but there are no details as of yet that I'm aware of to explain it.

 

[ItsHim]

It's really just the demo, though the variety of the cars was rather amazing. A bit like Noah's Ark.

Karts were pitted against karts, and the Fiats chose to stay amongst themselves. Quite fun taking the current Fiat 500 on a smaller track and it looked so cuuuuute.

Here's a quote from the Gamescom meet-up thread, which features the AI nicely and some very decent racing from Famine.

So nothing to worry about.

​

 

[SigmaViper11]

Yea, I noticed it as well. It'd be fine (to me at least) if the weaker cars were modified up to or near the performance spec of the race. Also the game rarely utilizes all of its cars. The AI seems to stick to it's sometimes bizzare range or selection of vehicles.

 

[Stigsblkcousin]

Yea, I noticed it also. Hopefully in GT5 those AI cars will be tuned, then thoes uncompetitive cars could be sleeper cars.

Thats something I've been hoping for since GT2.

 

[zork123]

This was a pretty notable problem with GTPSP as well. Hopefully, in arcade mode at least, PD will implement some sort of system where you can choose the cars the AI drive directly.

agreed. gt5p was either too hard or too easy. i just hope they balance it out and that the game isnt all rolling starts like in gt5p.

 

[witham]

This was a pretty notable problem with GTPSP as well. Hopefully, in arcade mode at least, PD will implement some sort of system where you can choose the cars the AI drive directly.

That would be amazing you could pitch your 16 favourite cars against each other in one race.

 

[CobraAce]

remember GT4's classic car races? complete disaster. A Shelby Cobra (wicked fast) a Jag E-Type (fast but cant come close to competing with the cobra) and some Skylines, S500's and Alfa Giulietas that drop 12 seconds a lap, and there were many other examples of this! bring back the HP cap from GT2 I say and make the AI capable of figuring it out. I wouldnt mind a whole field of Cobras, Corvettes, and Ferraris if it means I get some competition

 

[Sasek]

For me AI should choose cars reasonably. If race is for cars to 300hp and rear-drive, we need to see AI that drives a car with just such a power or a little less, but should not be such situation, when to the race starts much weaker car. The weaker should be tuned up to the car with a higher power. It would be good to see that the AI had a modification which the player can do. eg. engine tuning, sport exhaust, harder suspension, or weight reduction.
Just to perfect balance of the cars in races. This should not be difficult to add

 

[VXR]

FM3 pits uncompetitive cars against each other anyway, regardless of Ai. I've been in races where E,D,C,B and A have been used - I think the Corvette series is one of them.

It's probably happened in most games of this kind, though.

 

[SigmaViper11]

For me AI should choose cars reasonably. If race is for cars to 300hp and rear-drive, we need to see AI that drives a car with just such a power or a little less, but should not be such situation, when to the race starts much weaker car. The weaker should be tuned up to the car with a higher power. It would be good to see that the AI had a modification which the player can do. eg. engine tuning, sport exhaust, harder suspension, or weight reduction.
Just to perfect balance of the cars in races. This should not be difficult to add

Yea. Considering the AI have names and possible personalities I think they should exploit that. Uniqueness. I mean have some who will focus on power others that focus on weight and suspension, etc. Race restrictions should return but allow the AI to be intelligent enough to find the loopholes.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

I've noticed the whole problem in Prologue. I competed in a 4WD race in a Lancer Evo X, average car, and on PRO physics and the only aid a mild Active Steering, I tore apart the competition. Stupid AI.

 

[Tornado]

It's probably happened in most games of this kind, though.

It is a problem relatively knew to the GT series, though. It certainly wasn't an issue in GT2 and GT3, and it only popped up in GT4 in a handful of races.

 

[RedOak]

The reason for this is to create a gap in difficulty and create spacing during a race. However i find its quite a poor way to do it. It shows a lack of AI coding archtetypes. Instead the car's performence is the way to balance everything. Poorly handling cars will be harder to drive and thus; the ai seems poorer and the game suffers for it. fm does exaftly the same thing. Sad.

 

[ICEMAN_ZIDANE]

EVERYTHING is awesome ,PD/GT TEAM/SONY DON'T change something and don't put new arcade features in it ..
EVERYTHING is awesome only in 1 video i saw SPARKS coming from the cars if they were hiting , PLS change that (put it out)

 

[syaieya]

For GT5P and the demo, there just isnt enough cars to have a close match without have a 16 car field being composed of about 4 different types of cars or an 8 car field having one or two cars. So what they do is just group them by whatever criteria they feel like (cost, drivetrain, difficulty of handling, classification of car, whatever they choose)

Gran Turismo uses it's own "Performance Point" (PP)system to try to match up cars in GTPSP. It ranks a car's performance from 0-999

sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The biggest factor is the setup of the player's car

The system takes the standard PP of the car you choose, and then depending on the settings you choose for that car (tires being the biggest variable in GTPSP) it chooses the AI cars to match it. What alot of people don't realize is that how much R3 tires add to the PP value of a car.

For example, using GT5P's system (GTPSP doesn't list PP values of specific cars):

A FD mazda RX-7 has 552 PP running a stock configuration with S3 tires
When you upgrade the car to R3 tires it raises it's PP to 605

well a standard F430 ferrari has 634 PP

so even though you wouldn't expect a Mazda RX 7 to even be close to an F430, with those tires it suddenly has to be thrown into the same category


A normal sports car matched up with R3 tires suddenly jumps up the performance point value so much that you suddenly have to race standard set up supercars. With GT's AI in the past, they were so good even on the standard tires that they would still outspeed you.

 

[Bourner]

You mentioned PI system and how there is no sign of PP in the demos we've seen so far. Without PP GT5 will suck, hard! But there is no way that will be omitted from the full game. I'm sure Mr. Yamauchi will know better than that.

 

[CT230R]

GT2 sort of had it.
I remember the historic car cup, on one of the races, the one in Grindelwald, your against a GT40 and sometimes the Shelby Daytona Car and the rest of the AI are much slower like Toyota 2000s. Really unfair haha

 

[Patrocles]

I have noticed that too and its quite annoying.

when you increase the difficulty its not the AI that gets better but rather the car class..

yeah, that is a pain. especially when I want a good, fun race swapping paint with the AI in little econoboxes!

 

[SuperShouden]

Hi all!

Just an observation: is it just me, or is the game matching the player up with AI cars that are either top fast or to slow sometimes?

As an example, I'll be using Forza 3's PI Points system as a reference -- please don't hate me for this.

In one of the Gamescom videos, the player is using a BMW M5 -- a mid-B Class car in FM3 -- and is put up against a Miura -- a mid-D Class car, along with cars such as the Audi R8 -- a low-A Class car -- all in the same race, along with even faster cars.

Prologue does this too -- for example, you see races with cars ranging from low-Cl Class (Audi TT) to Mid-B Class (NSX-R). Why is there such a difference in performance capabilities between the cars?

I'm using the FM3 PI Points as a reference as there is no sign of the PP System in the demos we've seen. Is the PP System going to be in GT5?

Any thoughts? I'm simply curious.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Forza 3 Demo did the exact same thing. I distinctly remember driving a Ferrari California against an old Dodge Challenger. Not exactly the fairest match up, ever. And FM3's PP system is wack anyway. They've had issues with it from the beginning, and they're still having issues with it. And some of those "D-class" cars could run circles around a lot of the "A-class" cars.

From playing GT5P, the cars it matches you up with are more on level with the car your racing. This is evident if you look at the difficulty setting when entering each car. It changes depending on the car your driving. And besides, you can always adjust the difficulty settings.

 

[SigmaViper11]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Forza 3 Demo did the exact same thing. I distinctly remember driving a Ferrari California against an old Dodge Challenger. Not exactly the fairest match up, ever. And FM3's PP system is wack anyway. They've had issues with it from the beginning, and they're still having issues with it. And some of those "D-class" cars could run circles around a lot of the "A-class" cars.

From playing GT5P, the cars it matches you up with are more on level with the car your racing. This is evident if you look at the difficulty setting when entering each car. It changes depending on the car your driving. And besides, you can always adjust the difficulty settings.

I think any attempt at trying to round or simplify a cars performance is just going to fail. I think it should be based more on stats, 0-60, 60-0, Lateral G force, top speed, torque, horsepower, weight distribution. Those measurements should make for a more interesting and challenging race.

 

[blaktek]

The premium cars selection might be a bit thin in certain circumstances. I hope we can race standards and premiums at the same time. That would give the AI a new breadth of opponents choice.

And giving the AI the ability to tune up its ride according to their personality is a truly great idea. Maybe they could include visual preferences too... Well, daydreaming won't get me any closer to the game, so I'll just hibernate early this year.

 

[opladener]

It doesn't work well in GTPSP though. Muscle cars are nearly useless due to this.
It seems to me that cars are simply horsepower matched, leaving out the 40 years of development in suspension.

 

[Blitz24]

remember GT4's classic car races? complete disaster. A Shelby Cobra (wicked fast) a Jag E-Type (fast but cant come close to competing with the cobra) and some Skylines, S500's and Alfa Giulietas that drop 12 seconds a lap, and there were many other examples of this! bring back the HP cap from GT2 I say and make the AI capable of figuring it out. I wouldnt mind a whole field of Cobras, Corvettes, and Ferraris if it means I get some competition

There is something wrong when the field against me consists of a Shelby and a Citroen 2CV. Other than the ring, the Citroen got lapped in every race (which was 2 laps) and the Shelby lost a race when he decided to play ram into the Citroen instead of avoiding it in a straight line.

 

[FlourescentBlak]

Hopefully, in arcade mode at least, PD will implement some sort of system where you can choose the cars the AI drive directly.

That would be pure awesomeness. You could have a 100 rated AI driving a C or B class car or you could have a 85 rated AI driving an S class car for equal laptimes. Something like that anyway.

 

[SavageEvil]

Wait a minute, in GT5P the PP limited races give you a range of cars within 50-100 PP points on the grid. The PP system bases the car ability based on it's stats and the quick tune shows how your vehicles performance changes. It seems to work rather well as the ratings still vary on how well you can drive said car. Considering that GT5 will have more cars available to stick into 16 car races, we should see more competitive races, but that will definitely make things next to impossible for you to win, as realistically if all cars close to equal and the AI drivers are competent, you won't get too far beyond your position you began in a 2 lap races. Your car will need an edge, be it grip, it's lower weight or high torque, you will need something to help you beat similar vehicles. Sure we want competition, but think about it...they will have to program the AI to be stupid at times because if the AI drives like M. Schumacher, you won't win. I'm sure that GT PSP had levels you could set the AI to.