Jack Napier
(Banned)
- 120
- United States
Understanding the GTP consensus on how Camber is Broken
I am having a very hard time understanding the logic used at GTP when it comes to Camber Tuning and the Camber Testing. Mainly because the general consensus on Camber at GTP is that it’s broken. They can’t say exactly what’s wrong, but sum it up as lowering grip as you raise the camber setting above Zero. Its commonly thought that raising camber from zero should immediately improve grip in the corner. If you say anything to the contrary your are slammed as wrong and the logic used on camber at GTP deeming camber broken is sold as fact at GTP. If you say it’s different to this shared opinion, you get told to prove it, even though; Camber has still not been proven conclusively to not work correctly.
To prove the GTP logic on Camber there are many test that have been done and many theories behind those test to come to the conclusion, Camber must be “broken”… There has been corners tested and even skid pad style testing done. All based on the logic “If Camber worked correctly, it would begin to add grip as you raise the setting from zero”. To justify this logic it is then explained the GTP community agrees Camber in the game is used to flatten out the contact patch of the outside tire to give it more cornering grip because the outside wheel is experiencing positive camber in the corners and adding negative camber will give it a larger contact patch and in doing so more grip… It is also explained that the GTP community agrees that in a corner the outside tire is working more and therefore we need NOT adjust camber for the inside front tire in any way, I’ve been told GTP agrees the inside tires are not important when tuning camber… This too I do not understand..
I will mention that street cars with STD suspensions on super soft spring and high ride height no lateral stabilizers & street weight all heavy may over toss in a corner but in track tuning this is irrelevant as we lower the ride height, stiffen the springs add lateral stability and remove a good chunk of the weight being tossed around, and do so on fully independent suspensions, the car will experience MUCH less body pitch and roll in the corners. Since we are talking about improving performance of a track tuned suspension how the vehicle acts when track tuned is what is important, not if it tosses a lot of weight in stock trim or on bad settings…
I just don’t see pos camber as an issue on my outside front in most corners on most tracks in GT, it does not seem like PD intended camber to be tuned like GTP think it should. The only place I see raising camber from zero showing ANY improvement in GT6 would be on extreme banked corners like at Daytona Speedway, but this is only because the high degree of bank and extremely low turning angle. Any tune done for flatter tracks built with 0 camber or with a tuned in amount of camber will benefit from compensating for the bank with camber angle.
I’ve been pointed out the places where the GTP way of camber tuning should supposedly work and where GTP agrees camber tuning is intended for, is only places like the cork screw at Laguna. I haven’t seen any GTP Testing of camber tuning in the cork screw. Interesting the one place pointed out where GTP camber style tuning is said to be needed is a place untested by GTP. However there are not many corners like the cork screw, would camber really only be for odd corners like the cork screw? Is that the only place we are supposed to be able to benefit from camber tuning in a corner? Is that the only type of corner PD intended us to use camber tuning in GT6? I don’t agree with that at all.
Visualizing what’s going on in a corner in the game might help understand better…
For me to get a better visual of this logic as it applies to the game I decided to Drive on a few tracks in the game. Some with high speed Banked corners many with medium corners & some with really tight corners I would have to go more than 200degrees on the steering wheel into the corner at apex to complete.
I’m running a 600PP KTM X-Bow
To help me visualize things, I decided to adjust the camber on my car to 0/0, and drive a few laps on a bunch of tracks then watch the replay. While viewing the replays I snapped a picture at the apex of every corner when I had the highest level of steering input on the corner. I began to analyze the pictures looking for when the outside front would be experiencing enough pos camber (for any of a multitude of reasons GTP believes it should be under pos camber the fixed caster angle doesn’t already take care of with camber effect) I’m honestly looking for that pos camb on the outside front everybody speaks of using neg camb setting is supposed to help..
Some say the wheels go where they are supposed to but do not act as they should, seeing them in the corners should give us an idea of if this is true. If true we will see the pos camber, and our adjustments increasing camber from zero on the front should flatten out the outside front tire to give it better grip, but its said because camber is broken, it lowers the grip instead working backwards to how it should… I don’t think we will see that at all, but we will see what’s really going on…
Let’s look over the pictures I took and let’s see if you see the same thing I see, remember these are all in game photos, so when talking about camber I only speak of how it applies to the game.. I will also point out this is done with a car tuned to its tires, in these photos my X-Bow is fitted with Racing Hard tires at 600PP the Camber in all these pictures is set to 0/0
I thought it might be a good idea to look at the inside front during a corner with a 0 front camber setting. I know GTP says this is not important but let’s just look at it anyways.
Lets just make a mental note of how little of a contact the inside has in this sharp corner, OUCH!
Every track I go to it’s the same thing; the caster angle always gives enough camber effect to keep the outside tire flat in the corners. In all of the corners it’s the same no matter how hard you turn into the corner the outside tire gets enough neg camber to counter any body roll and slight bank from the fixed positive caster angle the car has.
Pick a track snap some shots and see for yourself….. If I have not got a photo that you think I should PLEASE take the pic and post it, ONLY in game Pictures though...
In the game I do not see where adding a neg camber setting on the front will flatten the outside front tire any more than it already is because of the positive caster angle. Or how the GTP spin on Camber is thought to work at all, looking over the pictures it becomes VERY clear the GTP consensus has it wrong based on what is happening in the game (forget the complicate theoretical stuff they copy from real pros on the subject trying to back up this logic, as this is when GTP will fall into REAL world theories even though they will adamantly tell you not to use IRL as example to disprove the GTP logic saying IRL not important here ONLY what is applicable to the game That is an interesting double standard… GTP can use their interpretation of IRL to back and explain the GTP way of looking at camber, BUT IRL cannotbe used to disprove the GTP way of thinking………….
The FACT of the matter is the logic GTP has used for many years concerning camber in the front end & how to tune it is clearly wrong. It looks like adding ANY amount of neg camber setting will lower how flat the outside front tire is in the corner & remove grip from the outside tire, certainly NOT add any grip to it…….. This is the opposite of the GTP general opinion backed by so many respected members running very in depth detailed test, quoting many tid bits from REAL Pro’s on the subject from IRL etc…. What we see clearly in the game is the literal exact opposite to the GTP Consensus. This is interesting because many in GTP go so far as to say camber is broken because it works backwards, it appears this conclusion IMO is drawn off a backwards understanding of camber tuning as it applies to GT………. So no, Camber I do not see as being broken, only a backwards understanding of it confusing people. Especially since this misunderstanding is preached at GTP to be fact when actually untrue..
What to make of this? What does PD have to say about this?
I then go read the tuning info on the camber setting in the game to see what it has to say about camber tuning.
“”””
Camber Angle (-)
The higher the camber angle, the more of the tire will be in contact with the road when cornering, but make it too high and your brakes will be less effective. Camber angles can also be adjusted in order to alter the grip balance between front and rear tires when cornering
“”””
I understand it’s a bit vague, I believe this is because they are using one explanation to apply to both the front and back adjustments.
It basically says;
Summarized
“”Increasing camber setting should make the tire have more contact with the road during a corner and this will increase cornering grip…””””” “””””Too much camber hurts braking””” “””Camber can be used to alter the balance of grip from front to rear while cornering””””””
How exactly does increasing the camber angle increase the amount the outside front tire is in contact with the road? It doesn’t at all as we see from the pictures…
This is NOT true for the outside front or the inside rear.
HOWEVER
This is however true for the inside front tire, and for the outside rear tire, SO the PD in game tuning description and directions CAN be used IF we use the PD in game directions on the inside front tire and outside rear….
Front end Camber
If we look at the inside front tire inside a sharp corner
As we increase front camber from zero, the more of the tire is in contact with the road…. This goes with the GT in game description of camber tuning… The only problem though is at first the difference is so small the loss on the outside is not yet countered by a gain on the inside… ONLY when the inside tire starts getting closer to flat while inside the corners (or one corner IF testing camber to one specific corner) will the benefits on the inside tire be more beneficial then what’s happening to the outside that has more grip to spare.
The more steering input required for the corner the more camber angle will be required to flatten out the inside front tire and the more contact the tire will have with the road. We need more angle for sharper corners…
Would this not suggest for us to tune our cars as PD intended tuning to be done in GT, we use neg camber in the front to flatten the inside front tire in a corner?
Rear End Camber
Now let’s look at the back end, keeping in mind it’s different to the front with no steering angle and no caster angle camber effect.
As we increase rear camber from zero, the more of the tire is in contact with the road…. This goes with the GT in game description of camber tuning…
Would this not suggest for us to tune our cars as PD intended tuning to be done in GT, we use Neg Camber in the rear to flatten out the outside rear tire because the lean is causing slight pos camber on it???
My conclusion
When it comes to Tuning in GT6, PD designed it and knows it much better then all GTP members combined, while GTP members can theorize about what is or is not simulated etc, PD knows exactly what’s going on and most often the GTP consensus is NOT as correct as GTP community would like to believe
The way I see Camber & Camber Tuning as it applies to GT6 is different to GTP, I agree with PD and tune my car as best I can using the tuning options in the game as they should be used, and were intended to be used by PD.
I have asked those backing the GTP logic to show me when the pos camber issues would benefit from GTP style camber tuning, but have yet to be given anything to show this, this being one of those times GTP will flood the topic with all kinds of real world stuff, pics diagrams, videos etc, (even though this would not be okay to do if opposing a GTP consensus remember there is a double standard at GTP) but when you sniff through all the stuff they put up, NOTHING at all showing the GTP logic actually working in game, it seems IMO that is done as a smokescreen to overload and confuse instead of to simplify & clarify. Not one in game pic to support the GTP logic on Camber… The GTP logic being completely unproven, even here at GTP, the test GTP have done, ONLY prove the GTP theory that is the general consensus on camber at GTP doesn’t work in the game at all.
It doesn’t matter if my theories on how to tune camber in GT6 are correct or not, the FACT is the GTP logic on Camber and how to tune it is clearly proven to be false and does not work in the game as GTP thinks it should… How much other aspect of tuning could the GTP consensus be wrong about??? I’ve found quite a bit, and I will address all of it in specific threads on the aspects in question…
I will go into depth on my Camber theories in a Thread of its own…. It’s in the works soon to come, with MORE of my Take on various aspects of GT6 tuning…
I will explain my technique in its own thread but here are some pictures to show the range of Camber I look in to find where camber works best for any given corner
I look for where inside the range of Pos camb on the inside to neg camb on the inside she feels best
To help with this I find the center point
I am having a very hard time understanding the logic used at GTP when it comes to Camber Tuning and the Camber Testing. Mainly because the general consensus on Camber at GTP is that it’s broken. They can’t say exactly what’s wrong, but sum it up as lowering grip as you raise the camber setting above Zero. Its commonly thought that raising camber from zero should immediately improve grip in the corner. If you say anything to the contrary your are slammed as wrong and the logic used on camber at GTP deeming camber broken is sold as fact at GTP. If you say it’s different to this shared opinion, you get told to prove it, even though; Camber has still not been proven conclusively to not work correctly.
To prove the GTP logic on Camber there are many test that have been done and many theories behind those test to come to the conclusion, Camber must be “broken”… There has been corners tested and even skid pad style testing done. All based on the logic “If Camber worked correctly, it would begin to add grip as you raise the setting from zero”. To justify this logic it is then explained the GTP community agrees Camber in the game is used to flatten out the contact patch of the outside tire to give it more cornering grip because the outside wheel is experiencing positive camber in the corners and adding negative camber will give it a larger contact patch and in doing so more grip… It is also explained that the GTP community agrees that in a corner the outside tire is working more and therefore we need NOT adjust camber for the inside front tire in any way, I’ve been told GTP agrees the inside tires are not important when tuning camber… This too I do not understand..
I will mention that street cars with STD suspensions on super soft spring and high ride height no lateral stabilizers & street weight all heavy may over toss in a corner but in track tuning this is irrelevant as we lower the ride height, stiffen the springs add lateral stability and remove a good chunk of the weight being tossed around, and do so on fully independent suspensions, the car will experience MUCH less body pitch and roll in the corners. Since we are talking about improving performance of a track tuned suspension how the vehicle acts when track tuned is what is important, not if it tosses a lot of weight in stock trim or on bad settings…
I just don’t see pos camber as an issue on my outside front in most corners on most tracks in GT, it does not seem like PD intended camber to be tuned like GTP think it should. The only place I see raising camber from zero showing ANY improvement in GT6 would be on extreme banked corners like at Daytona Speedway, but this is only because the high degree of bank and extremely low turning angle. Any tune done for flatter tracks built with 0 camber or with a tuned in amount of camber will benefit from compensating for the bank with camber angle.
I’ve been pointed out the places where the GTP way of camber tuning should supposedly work and where GTP agrees camber tuning is intended for, is only places like the cork screw at Laguna. I haven’t seen any GTP Testing of camber tuning in the cork screw. Interesting the one place pointed out where GTP camber style tuning is said to be needed is a place untested by GTP. However there are not many corners like the cork screw, would camber really only be for odd corners like the cork screw? Is that the only place we are supposed to be able to benefit from camber tuning in a corner? Is that the only type of corner PD intended us to use camber tuning in GT6? I don’t agree with that at all.
Visualizing what’s going on in a corner in the game might help understand better…
For me to get a better visual of this logic as it applies to the game I decided to Drive on a few tracks in the game. Some with high speed Banked corners many with medium corners & some with really tight corners I would have to go more than 200degrees on the steering wheel into the corner at apex to complete.
I’m running a 600PP KTM X-Bow
To help me visualize things, I decided to adjust the camber on my car to 0/0, and drive a few laps on a bunch of tracks then watch the replay. While viewing the replays I snapped a picture at the apex of every corner when I had the highest level of steering input on the corner. I began to analyze the pictures looking for when the outside front would be experiencing enough pos camber (for any of a multitude of reasons GTP believes it should be under pos camber the fixed caster angle doesn’t already take care of with camber effect) I’m honestly looking for that pos camb on the outside front everybody speaks of using neg camb setting is supposed to help..
Some say the wheels go where they are supposed to but do not act as they should, seeing them in the corners should give us an idea of if this is true. If true we will see the pos camber, and our adjustments increasing camber from zero on the front should flatten out the outside front tire to give it better grip, but its said because camber is broken, it lowers the grip instead working backwards to how it should… I don’t think we will see that at all, but we will see what’s really going on…
Let’s look over the pictures I took and let’s see if you see the same thing I see, remember these are all in game photos, so when talking about camber I only speak of how it applies to the game.. I will also point out this is done with a car tuned to its tires, in these photos my X-Bow is fitted with Racing Hard tires at 600PP the Camber in all these pictures is set to 0/0
I thought it might be a good idea to look at the inside front during a corner with a 0 front camber setting. I know GTP says this is not important but let’s just look at it anyways.
Lets just make a mental note of how little of a contact the inside has in this sharp corner, OUCH!
Every track I go to it’s the same thing; the caster angle always gives enough camber effect to keep the outside tire flat in the corners. In all of the corners it’s the same no matter how hard you turn into the corner the outside tire gets enough neg camber to counter any body roll and slight bank from the fixed positive caster angle the car has.
Pick a track snap some shots and see for yourself….. If I have not got a photo that you think I should PLEASE take the pic and post it, ONLY in game Pictures though...
In the game I do not see where adding a neg camber setting on the front will flatten the outside front tire any more than it already is because of the positive caster angle. Or how the GTP spin on Camber is thought to work at all, looking over the pictures it becomes VERY clear the GTP consensus has it wrong based on what is happening in the game (forget the complicate theoretical stuff they copy from real pros on the subject trying to back up this logic, as this is when GTP will fall into REAL world theories even though they will adamantly tell you not to use IRL as example to disprove the GTP logic saying IRL not important here ONLY what is applicable to the game That is an interesting double standard… GTP can use their interpretation of IRL to back and explain the GTP way of looking at camber, BUT IRL cannotbe used to disprove the GTP way of thinking………….
The FACT of the matter is the logic GTP has used for many years concerning camber in the front end & how to tune it is clearly wrong. It looks like adding ANY amount of neg camber setting will lower how flat the outside front tire is in the corner & remove grip from the outside tire, certainly NOT add any grip to it…….. This is the opposite of the GTP general opinion backed by so many respected members running very in depth detailed test, quoting many tid bits from REAL Pro’s on the subject from IRL etc…. What we see clearly in the game is the literal exact opposite to the GTP Consensus. This is interesting because many in GTP go so far as to say camber is broken because it works backwards, it appears this conclusion IMO is drawn off a backwards understanding of camber tuning as it applies to GT………. So no, Camber I do not see as being broken, only a backwards understanding of it confusing people. Especially since this misunderstanding is preached at GTP to be fact when actually untrue..
What to make of this? What does PD have to say about this?
I then go read the tuning info on the camber setting in the game to see what it has to say about camber tuning.
“”””
Camber Angle (-)
The higher the camber angle, the more of the tire will be in contact with the road when cornering, but make it too high and your brakes will be less effective. Camber angles can also be adjusted in order to alter the grip balance between front and rear tires when cornering
“”””
I understand it’s a bit vague, I believe this is because they are using one explanation to apply to both the front and back adjustments.
It basically says;
Summarized
“”Increasing camber setting should make the tire have more contact with the road during a corner and this will increase cornering grip…””””” “””””Too much camber hurts braking””” “””Camber can be used to alter the balance of grip from front to rear while cornering””””””
How exactly does increasing the camber angle increase the amount the outside front tire is in contact with the road? It doesn’t at all as we see from the pictures…
This is NOT true for the outside front or the inside rear.
HOWEVER
This is however true for the inside front tire, and for the outside rear tire, SO the PD in game tuning description and directions CAN be used IF we use the PD in game directions on the inside front tire and outside rear….
Front end Camber
If we look at the inside front tire inside a sharp corner
As we increase front camber from zero, the more of the tire is in contact with the road…. This goes with the GT in game description of camber tuning… The only problem though is at first the difference is so small the loss on the outside is not yet countered by a gain on the inside… ONLY when the inside tire starts getting closer to flat while inside the corners (or one corner IF testing camber to one specific corner) will the benefits on the inside tire be more beneficial then what’s happening to the outside that has more grip to spare.
The more steering input required for the corner the more camber angle will be required to flatten out the inside front tire and the more contact the tire will have with the road. We need more angle for sharper corners…
Would this not suggest for us to tune our cars as PD intended tuning to be done in GT, we use neg camber in the front to flatten the inside front tire in a corner?
Rear End Camber
Now let’s look at the back end, keeping in mind it’s different to the front with no steering angle and no caster angle camber effect.
As we increase rear camber from zero, the more of the tire is in contact with the road…. This goes with the GT in game description of camber tuning…
Would this not suggest for us to tune our cars as PD intended tuning to be done in GT, we use Neg Camber in the rear to flatten out the outside rear tire because the lean is causing slight pos camber on it???
My conclusion
When it comes to Tuning in GT6, PD designed it and knows it much better then all GTP members combined, while GTP members can theorize about what is or is not simulated etc, PD knows exactly what’s going on and most often the GTP consensus is NOT as correct as GTP community would like to believe
The way I see Camber & Camber Tuning as it applies to GT6 is different to GTP, I agree with PD and tune my car as best I can using the tuning options in the game as they should be used, and were intended to be used by PD.
I have asked those backing the GTP logic to show me when the pos camber issues would benefit from GTP style camber tuning, but have yet to be given anything to show this, this being one of those times GTP will flood the topic with all kinds of real world stuff, pics diagrams, videos etc, (even though this would not be okay to do if opposing a GTP consensus remember there is a double standard at GTP) but when you sniff through all the stuff they put up, NOTHING at all showing the GTP logic actually working in game, it seems IMO that is done as a smokescreen to overload and confuse instead of to simplify & clarify. Not one in game pic to support the GTP logic on Camber… The GTP logic being completely unproven, even here at GTP, the test GTP have done, ONLY prove the GTP theory that is the general consensus on camber at GTP doesn’t work in the game at all.
It doesn’t matter if my theories on how to tune camber in GT6 are correct or not, the FACT is the GTP logic on Camber and how to tune it is clearly proven to be false and does not work in the game as GTP thinks it should… How much other aspect of tuning could the GTP consensus be wrong about??? I’ve found quite a bit, and I will address all of it in specific threads on the aspects in question…
I will go into depth on my Camber theories in a Thread of its own…. It’s in the works soon to come, with MORE of my Take on various aspects of GT6 tuning…
I will explain my technique in its own thread but here are some pictures to show the range of Camber I look in to find where camber works best for any given corner
I look for where inside the range of Pos camb on the inside to neg camb on the inside she feels best
To help with this I find the center point
Last edited:
..... You cant, its impossible unless those are pics of cars IRL you set the suspention up on and you can provide us wih the specific setting used on the car ir Caster/Camber/Toe
