Unpopular Motorsport Opinions

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Honestly, I think it comes down to if either, most likely Lexus, start a DPi program, if Lexus does go ahead with that I see Toyota dropping their LMP1 program, then Porsche would probably follow,

I'd like to see DPi develop into something internationally strong, the heavy hitters left LMP1 the ACO would be stupid to ignore it, they would have to adopt DPi, and give freedom to some of the bigger teams in LMP2 like Alpine and Rebellion to build their own bodywork and find their own engine supplier, Le Mans would become q major competition spectacle seeing 30 cars actually capable of winning outright,
Nope. Nope. Hell no.

DPi is a category that is inherently reliant on BoP and necessitates nominal road car manufacturer backing. I much prefer to keep the top category at LM open and unlimited without the politics of BoP. GTE has suffered enough as it is.
 
I don't think I'll ever understand all the hatred the GT-R gets. Quite a few people constantly complain at how similar cars in any given category look, than when something that does look different comes along they complain that it's ugly and cheer it's failing. :confused:

As for the car itself, it was an interesting enough concept, it's just a shame Nissan didn't manage the program properly.
 
This.

If Porsche or Toyota wanted to field an experimental FWD car alongside their established factory efforts, fine. That would have been interesting.

Nissan jumping into FWD prototypes feet first without any recent sports car experience as a constructor and with too little money was just too big a risk and it blew up in their face.
There it is. It's being done again, the FWD argument. Being FWD wasn't the problem, and there's no indication that it was. The only argument against the car that persists is that it's FWD, and that they shouldn't have went with it because it's different, and therefore can't work.

The problem was that its hybrid system didn't work. If the Porsche or Toyota hybrid systems stopped working, they would be every bit as crippled.
 
Unpopular motorsports opinions? Ok, I've got one: Hermann Tilke is an excellent circuit designer, and some of his works are among the best racing circuits in the world.
 
Nope. Nope. Hell no.

DPi is a category that is inherently reliant on BoP and necessitates nominal road car manufacturer backing. I much prefer to keep the top category at LM open and unlimited without the politics of BoP. GTE has suffered enough as it is.

Hasn't Le Mans had BoP on LMP1 for the last 5 or so events?
 
There it is. It's being done again, the FWD argument. Being FWD wasn't the problem, and there's no indication that it was. The only argument against the car that persists is that it's FWD, and that they shouldn't have went with it because it's different, and therefore can't work.

The problem was that its hybrid system didn't work. If the Porsche or Toyota hybrid systems stopped working, they would be every bit as crippled.

Crippled hybrid or not, the GTR LM was very slow through corners, and that was a direct result of the FWD layout. FWD creates problems with traction and weight distribution. It causes understeer pretty much everywhere and removes a driver's ability to balance the car with the throttle. The only way to get rid of the understeer is to take grip away from the rear, which Nissan did by fitting tyres to the rear that were over 35% narrower than permitted (9" vs 14"). They had almost 18% less rubber on the road than their competitors and that translates almost directly into less grip.

I remember buying a copy of Racecar Engineering where the Nissan was featured on the cover, in the hope of understanding what it was that they were trying to exploit. The best I could infer was that they thought the layout would require less rear downforce and that they could generate greater (lower-drag) downforce over the front wheels. Of course, that downforce counts for little in slow corners anyway, and the extra speed on the straights from the reduced drag has to make up for the corner speed deficit of FWD before it can provide any advantage.
FWD is also going to wear the front tyres considerably faster than RWD. When that happens you have a vicious circle of more understeer and even less traction leading to even more tyre wear. And that's before you factor in the suspension geometry and setup limitations that FWD brings over RWD.

FWD has its place. In your average roadgoing passenger cars, where performance is not the goal, it has a lot of advantages in terms of packaging and cost. The limitations of FWD for performance or racing cars are obvious to anyone with an understanding of vehicle performance and dynamics, and in racing those limitations would need a significant rules loophole to overcome. I got the feeling with both the GTR LM and Deltawing that Ben Bowlby was so obsessed with the perceived advantages that he completely forgot about the compromises the designs would bring about.
 
There it is. It's being done again, the FWD argument. Being FWD wasn't the problem, and there's no indication that it was. The only argument against the car that persists is that it's FWD, and that they shouldn't have went with it because it's different, and therefore can't work.

The problem was that its hybrid system didn't work. If the Porsche or Toyota hybrid systems stopped working, they would be every bit as crippled.

Maybe you misunderstood my post. I didn't say it was risky or reckless because it was FWD, I said it was risky or reckless because Nissan didn't have a pre-existing factory sports car team.

They jumped in with something experimental instead of jumping in with something safe and then trying something experimental.
 
Crippled hybrid or not, the GTR LM was very slow through corners, and that was a direct result of the FWD layout. FWD creates problems with traction and weight distribution. It causes understeer pretty much everywhere and removes a driver's ability to balance the car with the throttle. The only way to get rid of the understeer is to take grip away from the rear, which Nissan did by fitting tyres to the rear that were over 35% narrower than permitted (9" vs 14"). They had almost 18% less rubber on the road than their competitors and that translates almost directly into less grip.

I remember buying a copy of Racecar Engineering where the Nissan was featured on the cover, in the hope of understanding what it was that they were trying to exploit. The best I could infer was that they thought the layout would require less rear downforce and that they could generate greater (lower-drag) downforce over the front wheels. Of course, that downforce counts for little in slow corners anyway, and the extra speed on the straights from the reduced drag has to make up for the corner speed deficit of FWD before it can provide any advantage.
FWD is also going to wear the front tyres considerably faster than RWD. When that happens you have a vicious circle of more understeer and even less traction leading to even more tyre wear. And that's before you factor in the suspension geometry and setup limitations that FWD brings over RWD.
I haven't seen anyone flogging the dead horse for a very long time, but it still seems like people didn't understand the concept of the car.

Put very simply, it wasn't FWD. It was a reversed layout - a traditional hybrid P1 has an electric/IC split. This had an IC/electric split. In putting the layout back to front, it opened up a world of aerodynamic possibilities.

The failure was not due to it being FWD - the failure was due to vendor issues and having to run it as FWD. If it was a conventional electric/IC split, it wouldn't have had some of the setup issues they encountered during the LM weekend, but it still would have been a vastly under-powered, overweight mess. The car had so many balance issues because it was never intended to be run with power going to the front wheels alone. It was a miracle they had cars circulating at all.

Everything you've mentioned is a very basic explanation of simple fundamentals of vehicle dynamics, which aren't entirely off base - they just can't be applied to this example.
FWD has its place. In your average roadgoing passenger cars, where performance is not the goal, it has a lot of advantages in terms of packaging and cost. The limitations of FWD for performance or racing cars are obvious to anyone with an understanding of vehicle performance and dynamics, and in racing those limitations would need a significant rules loophole to overcome. I got the feeling with both the GTR LM and Deltawing that Ben Bowlby was so obsessed with the perceived advantages that he completely forgot about the compromises the designs would bring about.
Inherent limitations will always exist, but an engineer will always try and minimise their effect. That is how motorsport engineering will always work. FWD platforms make up a very considerable amount of competition platforms the world over, and they continually achieve success in various fields - there are some regulations that favour certain layouts, and some that favour others.

The "significant loopholes" you've alluded to, ironically, are what the current LMP1 regulations offered. Bowlby is a highly accredited motorsport engineer with decades spent working in several very high profile positions within the industry. Someone in the position he was in at Nissan, being both the principal and technical director of a racing programme at the very highest level of international motorsport, will not have gone ahead with a project developed on hunches or random ideas. That's simply not how the motorsport business works. Regardless of how the cars materialised on track, and the performance issues they encountered, there will have been very sound engineering theories - going much, much further beyond basic vehicle dynamics concepts - applied at every step of the project.
 
Hasn't Le Mans had BoP on LMP1 for the last 5 or so events?
No. Or at least not at the highest levels in LMP1-H.

There is EoT in LMP1 (Equivalence of Technology), which is sometimes conflated with BoP, but it's not BoP. EoT is the ACO's method to allow different fuel types and different levels of hybridization to compete on equal footing (more the former than the latter, as higher levels of hybridization are slightly favoured in the class). The concept is very much a modern equivalent of forced induction multipliers of many years past. It's necessary to have if you want diversity of drivetrain, as a single ruleset cannot account for both diesel and petrol engines. It's very different to BoP, as EoT is an adjustment to the rulebook and it affects all competitors using that type of drivetrain, which is very much unlike BoP where individual competitors are slowed down or sped up to make them equal with their competition. If LMP1-H had BoP, Toyota wouldn't have been off the pace in 2015.
 
No. Or at least not at the highest levels in LMP1-H.

There is EoT in LMP1 (Equivalence of Technology), which is sometimes conflated with BoP, but it's not BoP. EoT is the ACO's method to allow different fuel types and different levels of hybridization to compete on equal footing (more the former than the latter, as higher levels of hybridization are slightly favoured in the class). The concept is very much a modern equivalent of forced induction multipliers of many years past. It's necessary to have if you want diversity of drivetrain, as a single ruleset cannot account for both diesel and petrol engines. It's very different to BoP, as EoT is an adjustment to the rulebook and it affects all competitors using that type of drivetrain, which is very much unlike BoP where individual competitors are slowed down or sped up to make them equal with their competition. If LMP1-H had BoP, Toyota wouldn't have been off the pace in 2015.

Thanks for the clarification,

Though BoP really doesn't matter if your car is a turd, the SRO refuse to give the GTR GT3 any more power then where it is, it's not their fault that it cant lose more weight, get better weight distribution and actually corner competitively on worn tires,
 
Well, more importantly the GT-R's underpinnings are what, 10 years old now? It's living in a world of mid-engined RWD super-car derived GT3 cars developed within a year or two. Personally I think the GT-R is an ugly turd, but it's not hard to see why it's struggling a bit on the competitive side.
 
Bo
I haven't seen anyone flogging the dead horse for a very long time, but it still seems like people didn't understand the concept of the car.

Put very simply, it wasn't FWD. It was a reversed layout - a traditional hybrid P1 has an electric/IC split. This had an IC/electric split. In putting the layout back to front, it opened up a world of aerodynamic possibilities.
Bo
Everything you've mentioned is a very basic explanation of simple fundamentals of vehicle dynamics, which aren't entirely off base - they just can't be applied to this example.

I was replying to someone banging the drum of drivetrain layout not being the problem, rather than trying to resurrect a dead horse myself. I understand how LMP hybrid systems are arranged and the GTR LM's concept, and as an engineer myself I've tried to to understand why those involved thought the aerodynamic possibilities were great enough to justify using an extreme weight distribution and inferior drive layout.

As far as whether it was FWD or not: is it 100% FWD? No. Is it heavily FWD-biased? Yes, and Nissan themselves always described it as being FWD. Even in the 8MJ hybrid class, cars are permitted well over 100MJ of fuel energy per lap, so the effect of the electrical system's energy is relatively small (contributing 4 sec in a ~3 minute 20s lap, according to Nissan, and certainly less than Nissan were losing at Le Mans). You can't argue that the drivetrain is anything but a mildly augmented FWD. I'm happy to call it "FWD-bias" if that makes it clearer what we all mean.

I could have happily got into the deeper maths and physics but chose not to, precisely because the simple fundamentals can be applied to the GTR LM. The decision to use a front-biased layout (in terms of aero, weight, and power distribution) necessitated rear tyres with a significantly smaller contact patch than their rivals in order to balance the car. To reclaim the lost mechanical grip and overcome the dynamic limitations of FWD-bias, Nissan would have needed a huge chunk more downforce than other LMP1s, and that's assuming that such downforce levels would not further over-work the tyres. One of the development problems mentioned in a few articles was difficulty defining a tyre compound that worked.
It would also take a massive jump in aero efficiency for that level of extra downforce not to increase drag. The greater downforce would impact front suspension settings over and above the specific requirements of FWD, further limiting any gains. Let's not forget that out of a slow corner the aerodynamics can't do much anyway - exactly the type of corner where a driver of a RWD-biased car will neutralise understeer with the throttle whilst the Nissan drivers would have been trying to balance tyre loads from steering and accelerating. Even the best diff and TC settings are not going to be good enough to match the inherent balance of a RWD when chasing fractions of a second through a corner. Trackside reports from LM in 2015 indicated that not only was it slower through the corners, the Nissan was unsurprisingly leaning harder on its TC than other cars.


Bo
Inherent limitations will always exist, but an engineer will always try and minimise their effect. That is how motorsport engineering will always work. FWD platforms make up a very considerable amount of competition platforms the world over, and they continually achieve success in various fields - there are some regulations that favour certain layouts, and some that favour others.

The "significant loopholes" you've alluded to, ironically, are what the current LMP1 regulations offered.

Where regulations favour FWD it is not usually through a loophole in the rules but rather because organisers have actively chosen to artificially balance the performance, as in touring car racing. FWD is normally used in motorsport only for cars based on FWD road cars, and I can think of nowhere in recent memory that it has been truly successful against RWD without performance balancing.
I remain unconvinced that unrestricted front aerodynamics was a useful loophole. It seems that Audi, Porsche, Toyota, and the privateer chassis-builders would agree, since none of them bothered with that approach. An un-named German apparently told Road & Track that he thought the Nissan project was no more than a marketing exercise.
The fact that the rules permit something does not necessarily mean that it is a loophole, nor that it is advantageous to make use of it. If the rules had also allowed unlimited front tyre width, it may have been something worth exploiting to make FWD work; for aero reasons alone there was not enough reason to go Nissan's route because of the significant compromises of FWD.


Bo
Bowlby is a highly accredited motorsport engineer with decades spent working in several very high profile positions within the industry. Someone in the position he was in at Nissan, being both the principal and technical director of a racing programme at the very highest level of international motorsport, will not have gone ahead with a project developed on hunches or random ideas. That's simply not how the motorsport business works. Regardless of how the cars materialised on track, and the performance issues they encountered, there will have been very sound engineering theories - going much, much further beyond basic vehicle dynamics concepts - applied at every step of the project.

I'm not suggesting that Bowlby's designs came from hunches or random ideas - even the best engineers make mistakes and pursue dead ends that originally came from solid engineering principles and concepts. I believe the GTR LM had the same problem as the Deltawing. Despite their outward differences I can see how the thinking behind the Deltawing's design led to the GTR LM. Both offer great aero efficiency numbers in a windtunnel or CFD analysis, and both start from a point of a fairly extreme weight & aero distribution. But both also have a reliance on one end of the car to be working much harder than would normally be the case for anything but a dragster. You can apply all the sound engineering theories in the world to that starting point but that approach is fundamentally inefficient, and for the GTR LM in particular it resulted in a cascade of negative consequences. Perhaps it's fairer to blame the front-engine layout and philosophy, but FWD was a big factor in the GTR LM's failure.
 
I've probably said this before around here while the Nissan was doing testing and during that Le Mans weekend, but literally every Le Mans winning car since 1962 has had the engine in the middle or back of the car... Might be a reason for that.
 
Wasn't Le Mans its first race too? A complete lack of experience and running was always dooming it to failure at the most important race.
 
Wasn't Le Mans its first race too? A complete lack of experience and running was always dooming it to failure at the most important race.
So what? It was Toyota's first race in 2012. I'd say they were competitive enough six hours in for a normal WEC race. Where were Porsche in their first race with an LMP1H? On the podium. There are NO excuses for Nissan. They did it wrong, that's all.
 
So what? It was Toyota's first race in 2012. I'd say they were competitive enough six hours in for a normal WEC race. Where were Porsche in their first race with an LMP1H? On the podium. There are NO excuses for Nissan. They did it wrong, that's all.
Toyota already had enough experience in Le Mans racing. Not to mention they took control over the Matmut Oreca team to assist them.

Prosche might've been on the podium BUT it was a field of only 6 cars in LMP1H.
 
Toyota already had enough experience in Le Mans racing. Not to mention they took control over the Matmut Oreca team to assist them.

Prosche might've been on the podium BUT it was a field of only 6 cars in LMP1H.
In which case you can say the same thing for Nissan then with Group C. How far back do you want to go? You can ONLY be judged on what you do when you do it. As for Porsche, if Nissan had been in that race how many LMP1's do you think they'd be behind?

They made a bad mistake, perhaps for the best reason, innovation, but still a bad mistake.
 
In which case you can say the same thing for Nissan then with Group C. How far back do you want to go? You can ONLY be judged on what you do when you do it. As for Porsche, if Nissan had been in that race how many LMP1's do you think they'd be behind?

They made a bad mistake, perhaps for the best reason, innovation, but still a bad mistake.
Group C isn't LMP1 or anything related to that. Also when Nissan did Group C they didn't try making it FWD.

They did something different for the sake of something different, not doing something different as it'll give them sort of edge.
 
Group C isn't LMP1 or anything related to that. Also when Nissan did Group C they didn't try making it FWD.

They did something different for the sake of something different, not doing something different as it'll give them sort of edge.
In which case Toyota didn't either. The 90's isn't the second decade of the 21st century. Nor has Nissan's previous drivetrain choice have anything to do with what they DID DO later. THEY made a choice. It was the wrong choice. They even went about it the wrong way. We, and Audi as it turned out, knew what the advantage the layout would give via Youtube video presentations. No surprise that Audi subsequently showed off their LM body with those tunnels running through the nose.
 
In which case Toyota didn't either. The 90's isn't the second decade of the 21st century.
Lets not forget Toyota pretty took the Oreca Matmut team under their wing to make the project who were running Peugeot 908s, so they had that close to experience.

Nor has Nissan's previous drivetrain choice have anything to do with what they DID DO later. THEY made a choice. It was the wrong choice. They even went about it the wrong way. We, and Audi as it turned out, knew what the advantage the layout would give via Youtube video presentations. No surprise that Audi subsequently showed off their LM body with those tunnels running through the nose.
It shows that Nissan didn't have any experience designing a race car whose main drivetrain was FWD, so there was going to be lots of bumps in terms of designing.
 
This is surely going to rile a few people up.

Barely dressed women for sexual appeal are pointless in any motorsport. When your series is looking for sexual appeal to create crowd engagement, you've made a mistake in your racing. The WEC has gone the right way in abolishing the pre-race grid girls because it should be the cars and the drivers on show.
 
This is surely going to rile a few people up.

Barely dressed women for sexual appeal are pointless in any motorsport. When your series is looking for sexual appeal to create crowd engagement, you've made a mistake in your racing. The WEC has gone the right way in abolishing the pre-race grid girls because it should be the cars and the drivers on show.

The NASCAR 'Monster Girls' are so tacky. I don't mean the girls themselves, But just the whole idea of it all.
 
This is surely going to rile a few people up.

Barely dressed women for sexual appeal are pointless in any motorsport. When your series is looking for sexual appeal to create crowd engagement, you've made a mistake in your racing. The WEC has gone the right way in abolishing the pre-race grid girls because it should be the cars and the drivers on show.

I'd also have to agree. Whilst it can perhaps be viewed as an "edgy" topic that could be a bit of a minefield, it's the wrong way of making any form of motorsport appealing or getting the crowd involved. It's just a bit cliched, and can be of a minefield in itself, and I find the idea behind it cringey IMO.
 
I feel like it was something needed to get Motorsport some attention but nowadays, it is just not needed, motorsports is already set in the world plus since we have far better access to looking at barely dressed women if you're into that sort of thing that watching motorsports for it now is just redundant.
 
If the sponsors want scantily clad women to advertise for them at their races as grid girls, let them. The girls aren't there against their will either.
 
The girls aren't there against their will either.

Fun fact, my wife used to be a bartender in a high class joint in downtown Montreal quite some years ago and the F1 organizers were scouting around town for some grid girl talents for the GP... She eventually declined the offer, but let's just say she wasn't offered peanuts.
 
This is surely going to rile a few people up.

Barely dressed women for sexual appeal are pointless in any motorsport. When your series is looking for sexual appeal to create crowd engagement, you've made a mistake in your racing. The WEC has gone the right way in abolishing the pre-race grid girls because it should be the cars and the drivers on show.
Professional Motorsports is a marketing event, that's almost the point of it. It's all about association with a brand really, like the sports car adverts of a middle aged man with a suspiciously younger lady in the car.

In my opinion it's little different to the liveries on the cars.
 
"Fixing" F1 by making the cars vastly slower through worse brakes, restricted aero or outdated V8/10/12 engines will not fix anything, just make it worse.
 
Fun fact, my wife used to be a bartender in a high class joint in downtown Montreal quite some years ago and the F1 organizers were scouting around town for some grid girl talents for the GP... She eventually declined the offer, but let's just say she wasn't offered peanuts.

I know in the early 2000s of Brad Jones OzEmail racing team they had the same girls all year round, all expenses paid and the girls themselves were pulling 55k a year,

On the flip side they do deserve some basic human rights, I've heard of some getting seriously sick for wearing inappropriate clothes for the winter conditions at Phillip Island,

Either way I think if the girls are fine with it and are happy to do it for either the weekend or as a full time job then so be it, as long as they aren't expected suffer for it,
 
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