Update 1.16 Physics Changes

[hasslemoff]

Nice to be sure for someone other than your self.
On seasonal races where you use courtesy car provided by event damage is permanent during time you're in seasonal, as it counts kilometers too. When you exit to seasonal menu, menu where all seasonals are and go back then body is restored.
So how sure you want to be? Are courtesy cars working same, permanent damage until exiting back to main menu? Was run first thing to do on that car or was it already smashed before recorded test?

Each run was made with a courtesy car, if any effects of damage was there i'm sure it would of shown up more, if damage did in fact effect the runs then the 4th run would of shown the difference but there is nothing there, if you want to see if damage has effected any of the runs upload them and have a look. I have no need to try and manipulate any of the tests.

I still feel no difference even the No ABS one I tried which I was unsure proved inconclusive to me, but I hope somewhere that the testing and data will prove either way as its no problem to me, I still enjoy GT6 and if there has been a minor change then it shows that they are still making those little changes that make a difference to some.

 

[tarnheld]

Due to having no internet i am still on 1.15 but don't get to play as my ps3 is at my parents house. ..

Now that's ! @nickg07, can you do @BHowe's method on 1.15 when you have the time? It's done like that (@hasslemoff, please check and correct me if i missed something):

• Stay offline
• Chose Arcade mode, Race on Motegi Oval, use courtesy car, FR-S and/or X-Bow Street, Range Rover, Mito
• Set DS3 sensitivity to 0(zero), choose auto-transmission
• all aids off including ABS
• comfort soft tyres on each car
• track settings real
• Before race start, steer fully left with stick and hold it
• Wait until you hit a wall, cancel race and save replay

Do that 2-3 times with each car you can test, the more the better.

If you have the time, You can also do the same procedure again, and additionally X for throttle before race start until you hit a wall.

Watch out that you stay offline, and don't update accidentally.

Thanks in advance! 👍

EDIT: update race/track/controller settings to recreate @hasslemoff's replays

 

[Bhowe83]

I'd prefer wheel if you have it. The DS3 has auto assists built into steering. If you use a wheel and unplug you ffb motor you get one single constant angle, and that helps alot

Probably also manual transmission and just leave it in gear

 

[tarnheld]

'd prefer wheel if you have it. The DS3 has auto assists built into steering. If you use a wheel and unplug you ffb motor you get one single constant angle, and that helps alot

Probably also manual transmission and just leave it in gear

For the comparison to @hasslemoff's replays it is crucial to recreate his DS3 settings, that is sensitivity 0 and auto transmission. Here are the complete settings from him for reference:

Uploaded replays from Version 0 GT6.

• Custom DS3 settings for GT6 used (ds3 not wheel)
• Courtesy cars used only FF, FR, 4WD and MR
• Alfa Mito, Scion , Range Rover and KTM
• All Aids off including ABS (driving line and pass indicator was on couldnt be bothered turning them off)
• Comfort Soft tyres on each car
• Track settings real
• Time change for silverstone stowe standard
• Arcade Mode single race
• Tracks used Silverstone Stowe and Motegi Oval

When starting in the rolling start I had the stick of the DS3 fully to the left and (X) fully pressed for each car and track, Stowe went grass cutting, motegi Oval went into the wall.

Sure, for more testing it would be interesting to use a wheel, but i don't want to stress the schedule of testers too much.

 

[OdeFinn]

@hasslemoff, ok, I'm gonna do reinstall anyhow soon, so gonna try on 1.00 and trying to cut update process before last update, hoping at can go to 1.15 and try.

@tarnheld, body damage is considered as myth by many players, trying to get some data for this also.

 

[super_gt]

@hasslemoff, ok, I'm gonna do reinstall anyhow soon, so gonna try on 1.00 and trying to cut update process before last update, hoping at can go to 1.15 and try.

@tarnheld, body damage is considered as myth by many players, trying to get some data for this also.

To try 1.00 you will need 1.00 game save or you will have to start GT6 from the beginning.

 

[OdeFinn]

To try 1.00 you will need 1.00 game save or you will have to start GT6 from the beginning.

Let see how anniversary edition cars handle, just killing save after test and roll to next upgrade stop. May go till weekend until time for it.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I have driven the RUF Yellowbird replica for more than 300 miles, I also have 2 other Yellowbird build that has at least 300 miles each. Spent most of the time testing and tuning at Tsukuba and Spa. The replica that I have been working on recently is Sport Auto 1988 version, with 1200+kg and 3 different distribution, 40/60 ; 32/68 and 37/63. The 32/68 and 37/63 uses exact same setup - The setup used in both replay : 38/62 distribution version, 1200+kg, 469PS, high lock LSD and corrected gearing. The tire is Comfort Medium to target real life lap record at 1:06.12 ( Best Motoring ) at Tsukuba.

I provided 2 best lap replay, both done on 1st lap. The 1.15 best lap was done about a week ago, 1:05.829, while the 1.16 was done recently with 1:05.808

What I can tell from driving the RUF, it has better braking reaction from the chassis ( weight being transferred ) - easily felt from the 1s turn entry and both hairpin and overall subtle difference in holding lateral load ( this can be felt on the left curve after the Dunlop esses and the last corner ). Back in 1.15 the RUF has some subtle braking traits that can easily overload/lock the front tires when nearing the apex so I have to be extra careful when modulating the brakes, in 1.16 it's tamer/easier to modulate at Tsukuba. While holding the line on the left curve after the Dunlop and last corner was more hairy back in 1.15, the traction/grip limit is the same however.

The RUF tune/setup hasn't been changed at all ( except for slight changes in gearing ), including same BB and similar driving pace. Both best lap replay should be able to be exported to Motec file from within GT6 if anyone wishes to do more comprehensive analysis.

Both are done without any assist ( no ABS )

EDIT : Damn, just had a look at my replay data to make sure, the 1.15 replay has slightly different gearing ( 1st gear, 3rd gear and final ) The 1.15 has 4.000 final and 1.16 has 3.777, 3rd gear on 1.15 is 1.120, while 1.16 is 1.115 ( 0.005 difference )

Since 1st gear is not used on the lap, it doesn't have any effect, and 3rd is very small, while the lower final only allows slightly higher speed on redline, but at Tsukuba the performance difference is not much. I tinkered a bit the gearing before updating to 1.16

Got the replica setup posted if anyone wanted to drive it

Auto Motor Und Sport + Sport Auto 1988 RUF CTR Yellowbird Replica

Tuned to Replicate RUF CTR Yellowbird
Comfort Medium​

View attachment 331676​

CAR : RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
Tire : Comfort Medium

Specs 38/62 Distribution
Horsepower: 462 HP / 469 PS at 6000 RPM
Torque : 407.9 ft-lb at 5000 RPM
Power Limiter at : 100%
Weight: 1222 kg
Ballast : 153 kg
Ballast Position : 37
Weight Distribution : 38 / 62
Performance Points: 522

Specs 40/60 Distribution
Horsepower: 462 HP / 469 PS at 6000 RPM
Torque : 407.9 ft-lb at 5000 RPM
Power Limiter at : 100%
Weight: 1222 kg
Ballast : 153 kg
Ballast Position : 18
Weight Distribution : 40 / 60
Performance Points: 522

Specs 37/63 Distribution
Horsepower: 462 HP / 469 PS at 6000 RPM
Torque : 407.9 ft-lb at 5000 RPM
Power Limiter at : 100%
Weight: 1222 kg
Ballast : 153 kg
Ballast Position : 46
Weight Distribution : 37 / 63
Performance Points: 522


GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( INSTALLED ) -MANDATORY
Wheels : Stock
Car Paint : Giallo Modena

View attachment 331674​

Tuning Parts Installed :
Racing Exhaust
Fully Customizable Suspension
Full Customizable Dog Clutch Transmission
Weight Reduction Stage 3



Suspension - RUF Tuned Torsion Bar & Bilstein Damper

Front, Rear
Ride Height: 118 128
Spring Rate: 5.10 7.14
Dampers (Compression): 7 4
Dampers (Extension): 4 8
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 3
Camber Angle: 1.0 2.0
Toe Angle: -0.10 0.05

View attachment 331675​

DOG CLUTCH TRANSMISSION - RUF CTR 5 Speed

Install all power parts
Set Default
Use Default Final
Set Auto Max Speed at 400kmh / 249mph
Adjust each gear :
1st 2.786
2nd 1.600
3rd 1.115
4th 0.828
5th 0.625
6th 0.596 - Ignore for authenticity
Set Final 4.000, OPTIONAL 3.777 Corrected Final to get 211 MPH at 7000RPM


LSD 80% Lock - BASE
Initial Torque : 20
Acceleration Sensitivity: 48
Braking Sensitivity: 24

View attachment 331673​

Brake Balance:
5/5 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 4/4, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 5/5 brake balance as starting point.


Notes :


The RUF CTR Yellow Bird is a legendary tuned Porsche that breaks top speed record for production cars back in the late '80s. Alois Ruf had a different goal than most other Porsche tuner back in the day. He chose to go for less drag, more top speed, lightweight but still offers great handling for a rear engined Porsche. Using non turbo body 930, he developed the engine and twin turbo kit to produce over 469 PS for a low 1.1 Bar of boost, Alois Rud admitted that on the CTR ‘we use very big horses in Pfaffenhausen’, which means 469PS was a modest statement.. The boost level was adjustable up to 1.2 Bar, producing more than 500PS based on Yellow Bird owner reports. 29 examples were built from RUF VIN chassis ( not conversion ), while there are many more CTR built from converted Porsche.

This replica is based on the Auto Motor Und Sport and Sport Auto 1988 Magazine reviews. Test weight was at 1222kg, with several sets of weight distribution included, from 40/60 to 37/63. Some RUF technical books and the door plate on the car itself listed the weight with distribution at 40/60. Alois Ruf also mentioned that he went a great length to improve the balance by moving components from rear to front when possible ( front oil coolers ) and aim for 40/60 distribution. Recent articles mentioned 38/62, more likely from CTR with driver onboard and built from Porsche 930 conversion. FM5 uses 37/63 distribution, which might be plausible if taken from later year Porsche 930 conversion.

Power is set at 462 HP or 469 PS ( stock ), no oil change with body rigidity improvement mandatory as the real CTR has full roll cage.
Suspension of RUF CTR uses torsion bars and Bilstein Damper with 22mm front stabilizer bar and 20mm rear stabilizer bar, specially tuned by RUF extensively at Austrian race tracks Osterreichring and Salzburgring.
The torsion bar rate value has not been confirmed and the values are too low anyway ( can't be reached in GT6 )
I decided to use real life setup already proven at the track.
The spring rate used in this replica is based on Eibach Race Springs at 50 N/mm and 70 N/mm front/rear. The setup was used in real life on 930 Turbo with 1040 dry weight built for Nordschleife track/street ( 500+PS )
Damper, ARB has been tuned to support the weight distribution and spring rate, while camber and toe uses street/mild track Porsche 930 alignment.

The MN P911 RUF CTR tested by Sport Auto has 80% lock LSD, which also replicated with medium preload LSD. RUF offers lower lock 60% LSD as standard fitment on each RUF CTR and BTR sold to the public with 80% lock used on the 1st CTR as option. The high lock LSD might be too much for the usual customer who drive their car daily.

Gearing has been corrected with RUF gear set as offered in their brochure. The 5 speed uses 4.000 final, and the 6th gear in GT6 should not be used. I have also provided optional final at 3.777 to replicate the real life test result at 211mph @7000 RPM ( redline )

The RUF CTR was tuned and tested at Tsukuba, Red Bull Ring, Midfield and Spa. The real life record at Tsukuba in Best Motoring was 1:06.12. Using 38/62 distribution, oil changed build ( 463HP using limiter ), 1222kg, 3.777 Final, the RUF managed 1:05.808 lap on CM tire.

View attachment 331698 View attachment 331677 View attachment 331678 View attachment 331679​

 

[Stylel_Code]

Instead all this waste of time and effort from the members, it could have been easier if we could ask PD.
Imo, PD hasn't published any changes about the physics themselves. The changes you describe only comes to personal sensitivity as someone else pointed out, it can't be proven. And so far, the difference would be anything but a noticeable one.

 

[tarnheld]

Got my nose too deep into i2, and tried to extract more data. Particularly as we only get as outputs:

• Wheel Speeds
• Vehicle Speed
• G Forces, i suspect them measured at the center of gravity of the vehicle
• Engine RPM

User Inputs are

• Steering Angle in Degrees
• Throttle, Brake from 0% to 100%
• Gear

So without further assumptions about wheel base, tire diameter, steering angle/wheel angle transmission, there are not many useful quantities to derive from that. Let's look at the Slip Ratio, that is the difference of wheel speed to vehicle speed divided by absolute vehicle speed:

slip ratio = (v_wheel - v_vehicle)/abs(v_vehicle)

This can be used to infer the tire grip, and to find slip limits of tires, as a Slip Ratio of more than 0.1-0.2 means the tire cannot create more force and starts spinning. You can read more about that here. There is also the Slip Angle, that is the angle between were the vehicle is heading and the wheel angle relative to the car axis -- would be cool to have that to analyze the lateral grip limits -- but that quantity is not easily derivable from the logged data.

I looked for tell-tale sings of differences in @hasslemoff's and @Ridox2JZGTE's replays. Here is a Slip Ratio over longitudal G-force diagram of @Ridox2JZGTE's laps (black is 1.15):

You see that the tires can only generate about 0.7 G acceleration, but the engine is able to deliver more power and the rear wheels (only rear left wheel is shown) start to slip at a slip ratio of about 0.1.
No big differences between 1.15 and 1.16, so i don't see changes to the tire model.

Here are the front wheels (only left front wheel):

You see that the front wheels spin freely at positive acceleration, as the slip ratio is about zero. Only when braking there is a force generated by them, and they can only generate -1.1G of braking acceleration. When the slip ratio drops below -0.1, not more braking force is generated, but the tires start to slip.
No big difference between 1.15 and 1.16, so tire model is likely to be unchanged.

In @hasslemoff's replays the diagrams are swamped by the fact that Riffelsee has considerable height differences and longitudinal G-force has a "downhill factor" that doesn't come from engine acceleration/braking. That and the fact that he used SM tires and the Mazda Roadster's engine can't make the wheels spin on straights and he used ABS (auto braking modulation at the tire limit) the diagrams don't show the tire limit well. But still no differences between 1.15 and 1.16.

@Ridox2JZGTE's Yellowbird replica seems like an exciting ride just looking at the data alone. 👍 Will try that ASAP, i really need a break from staring at diagrams.

 

[SCER]

This has all gotten a bit out of hand. Attempted analysis of a possible change should be proportional to the magnitude of the difference the change might make.

i.e Using data analysis software to look at a dozen parameters in order to ascertain whether or not the physics of a video game had been adjusted at all in an update, because the adjustment (if there actually was one) can't be tangibly felt by the driver or observed in lap times, is a bit silly.

We're effectively using all available resources to find out whether a change, the effects of which can't actually be noticed, took place.

 

[tarnheld]

Using data analysis software to look at a dozen parameters in order to ascertain whether or not the physics of a video game had been adjusted at all in an update, because the adjustment (if there actually was one) can't be tangibly felt by the driver or observed in lap times, is a bit silly.

There were quite a few drivers who felt a change. And the nature of science is that you cannot prove a stated hypothesis, only present evidence making it more likely/unlikely that the hypothesis is true. If along the way some useful data pops out that can be used for something else, why not present it?

 

[Rotorist]

So guys, anyone who thinks possible that except from the huge change in crash physics seen in the post and video below, driving physics haven't altered? Weight contribution in handling and balance is a great matter as eveyone watching closely motorsports knows so...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...es-thread-read-op.325623/page-5#post-10558684