V-10 vs V-12

[TheToad263]

Does anyone know if a v-10 has any inherent advantages over a v-12? I mean sometimes I wonder why cars like the LFA and the Viper and R8 have v-10s and not v-12s. It seems that they are pricey enough where a v-12 would be do able.

 

[Dennisch]

Does anyone know if a v-10 has any inherent advantages over a v-12? I mean sometimes I wonder why cars like the LFA and the Viper and R8 have v-10s and not v-12s. It seems that they are pricey enough where a v-12 would be do able.

It's probably lighter,smaller than a V12? And that's about it?

 

[JTSnooks]

Mostly preference, although a V12 is a more naturally balanced engine overall.

12 cylinders/4 strokes per cycle = a nice round even 3.

10 cylinders/4 strokes per cycle = a not so round or even 2.5

I believe the reason the LFA uses a V10 was to draw on the available F1 technology and attempt to recreate the feel of an F1 engine in a road car.

With half the power, that is.

 

[freight48]

Does anyone know if a v-10 has any inherent advantages over a v-12? I mean sometimes I wonder why cars like the LFA and the Viper and R8 have v-10s and not v-12s. It seems that they are pricey enough where a v-12 would be do able.

The car would be longer, heavier, more expensive, and would have crappier fuel economy and fleet emissions. Just look at what Aston Martin did with that awful Cygnet.

 

[Dennisch]

The car would be longer, heavier, more expensive, and would have crappier fuel economy and fleet emissions. Just look at what Aston Martin did with that awful Cygnet.

But it would have a better sound!

 

[freight48]

But it would have a better sound!

Better is arguable.

 

[Dennisch]

Better is arguable.

Nope, a V10 cries, and a V12 howles 👍

 

[CarreraGT]

There are a lot of factors involved, but typically if you have more cylinders for the same displacement, you are able to have a higher revving engine because the stroke for each cylinder will be shorter.

As a rule of thumb, stroke=torque and bore=power, so a V12 engine would typically be used when you are chasing power, whereas a V8 or V10 would produce more torque for the same power output.

But then there are hundreds of other factors to consider such as head design, bore vs. stroke, forced induction etc.

As mentioned though, the V12 is more naturally balanced than the V10

 

[freight48]

Nope, a V10 cries, and a V12 howles 👍

That's your opinion. Not mine.

 

[CarreraGT]

I won't argue with that description, but there is something beautiful about the cry of a well tuned V10. Don't get me wrong I love the sound of a V12 (I nearly soiled myself when I heard the 599 GTO at Goodwood) but my all time favourite sounding car is the Carrera GT, hence the name 👍

 

[Dennisch]

I won't argue with that description, but there is something beautiful about the cry of a well tuned V10. Don't get me wrong I love the sound of a V12 (I nearly soiled myself when I heard the 599 GTO at Goodwood) but my all time favourite sounding car is the Carrera GT, hence the name 👍

A tuned Jaguar E-type series 3, or an XJ-12 with a stainless steel exhaust, will pop your little helmet off. Just Awesome.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

I would assume its a bit cheaper to make a V10, and Lexus might have tech suited for a V10.

 

[AMCNUT]

The V-10/V-12 debate is the same as the V-6/V-8 debate in my opinion. A little less weight, a little more whining, and generally a little faster revving, but each has its pros and cons. For me personally, a V-10 would probably offer equal or better performance, but there's something so alluring about the number 12...

 

[porsche 9146]

some cars have V10s instead of V12s for the same reason that some cars have I4s instead of I6s. it's cheaper, it's more efficient and it's lighter. it's also less powerful, though, and that's why many cars have V12s instead of V10s.

 

[TBR 427]

Does anyone know if a v-10 has any inherent advantages over a v-12? I mean sometimes I wonder why cars like the LFA and the Viper and R8 have v-10s and not v-12s. It seems that they are pricey enough where a v-12 would be do able.

The Viper and Audi use V10's because for those companies they were easier to make. The Viper engine, for instance, is closely related to their truck engines, which is why the viper sounds like a truck with sand in the oil tank. The Audi V10 is a cousin of the 4.0-4.2L V8 found in a bunch of Audis (old RS4, Spyker C8). It's not just simply just another pair of bangers on the end, but they're close in design.

The Lexus LF-A and BMW M5 (E60) use V10's because that was what F1 used. They don't really share much with any other engines in their companies.

Probably because M division made the V10 from scratch and the LF-A engine is a Yamaha unit because Toyota sucks at making good stuff.

 

[Carlos Fandango]

I would assume its a bit cheaper to make a V12, and Lexus might have tech suited for a V10.

Assuming a given level of features, a 12 will always be more expensive than a 10 as there are 2 more pistons, a bigger block, camshafts and cylinder heads, x more valves and so on.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

Assuming a given level of features, a 12 will always be more expensive than a 10 as there are 2 more pistons, a bigger block, camshafts and cylinder heads, x more valves and so on.

Sorry, I mean cheaper to make a V10. Huge typo on my part

 

[premhz]

V8`s are good,V12`s are best. V10 meets in the middle and is the compromise. Hence why F1 cars eventually settled on V10`s for power,weight,size and fuel economy until their continuing developing power/speed reached a level where it got to be a bit over the top and therefore banned.

 

[CarreraGT]

True. Each engine has its advantages and disadvantages. At the end of the day, they can make any engine perform well, just look at the power they were getting out of I4 engines in F1 in the 80's.

Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do with I4's in 2013. Preliminary test suggest around 650hp in what should be lighter cars, could make for some interesting racing

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

True. Each engine has its advantages and disadvantages. At the end of the day, they can make any engine perform well, just look at the power they were getting out of I4 engines in F1 in the 80's.

Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do with I4's in 2013. Preliminary test suggest around 650hp in what should be lighter cars, could make for some interesting racing

But why, the reliability would be horrid. 2 engines per race and that would be without anything bad happening

 

[CarreraGT]

But why, the reliability would be horrid. 2 engines per race and that would be without anything bad happening

They are actually going to decrease the number of engines available per season so reliability will be up. Plus, smaller engine, less cylinders, less parts to fail 👍

 

[entropy731]

Umm Lexus already answered this...

"The LFA's engineers selected a V10 engine over an equivalent displacement V8 engine for its higher revs, and over a V12 for its lower reciprocating mass, allowing for more rapid engine response."

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

They are actually going to decrease the number of engines available per season so reliability will be up. Plus, smaller engine, less cylinders, less parts to fail 👍

What do you mean less parts to fail. In an I4 make 500 HP and a V8 making 500 HP, all the cylinders in the 14 have to work twice as hard to make what the V8 is making, making part failure more likely.

 

[CarreraGT]

Less parts i.e. 4 is less than 8, do you need a calculator? Obviously the parts will be designed to withstand the required stresses, just as they were going from a V10 to a V8.

Reliability is one of the driving factors behind the engine change, along with trying to be more environmentally friendly (which is ironic when you consider one flight to transport the cars between races uses more fuel than the cars themself in an entire season)

Edit: Also you are forgetting that the I4 will have a turbo 👍

 

[Mygroth]

Less parts i.e. 4 is less than 8, do you need a calculator? Obviously the parts will be designed to withstand the required stresses, just as they were going from a V10 to a V8.

Reliability is one of the driving factors behind the engine change, along with trying to be more environmentally friendly (which is ironic when you consider one flight to transport the cars between races uses more fuel than the cars themself in an entire season)

Edit: Also you are forgetting that the I4 will have a turbo 👍

As you said, it's all bull-crap. If they really cared about the environment, they'd stop racing in general. The race cars do nothing compared to the cars of the visitors, planes/trucks being used etcetera. Hypocrites, keep the V10!

 

[CarreraGT]

I know, it's a bit of a joke. But if pleasing the greenies keeps them racing, I'm all for it. At the end of the day, they could probably get 650hp out of a single if they needed to so as long as they are no slower and they still sound awesome bring it on.

I was worried that the WRC cars would become a bit subdued with the switch from 2.0 litre to 1.6 litre engines, but they sound better than ever! Can't beat that turbo backfire, can't wait to hear it in Formula 1 again 👍

 

[sumbrownkid]

As you said, it's all bull-crap. If they really cared about the environment, they'd stop racing in general. The race cars do nothing compared to the cars of the visitors, planes/trucks being used etcetera. Hypocrites, keep the V10!

It is bull crap in a sense, but in the cog of things the idea of the whole "environmentally" or "green" racing is actually a nice change of things.

Sure V12s are great, but that's old tech. Racing is about fielding new things to beat the other guy. So having smaller engines is a nice change up of sorts and a nice challenge for all competitors.

Don't get me wrong, an Aston Martin DBR-9 sounds glorious, but the sounds diesels of the Peugeots and Audis are more exciting.

As for the V10 vs V12 thing, They are pretty much on the level with each other nowadays, so really its mostly for weight and economy, and most importantly, packaging as well as handling.

American V8s are beast though in the sound department.

 

[Mygroth]

I know, it's a bit of a joke. But if pleasing the greenies keeps them racing, I'm all for it. At the end of the day, they could probably get 650hp out of a single if they needed to so as long as they are no slower and they still sound awesome bring it on.

I was worried that the WRC cars would become a bit subdued with the switch from 2.0 litre to 1.6 litre engines, but they sound better than ever! Can't beat that turbo backfire, can't wait to hear it in Formula 1 again 👍

You're right with about everything you wrote, just one thing. I hate it that nowadays those 'greenies' you're talking about control about EVERYthing and whine about EVERYthing. In the Netherlands it's nearly impossible to buy the car you want because of the heavy 'green' rules, while a Mitsubishi I-MiEv is like 90% sponsored by the government.....a little over the top if you ask me.

 

[CarreraGT]

You're right, it is ********. In australia last year, they had to cancel a couple of stages of the WRC rally because the greenies protested that rallying promotes dangerous driving and destroys the rainforest.

I bet they all drive to work and have air conditioned houses though...

 

[Mygroth]

You're right, it is ********. In australia last year, they had to cancel a couple of stages of the WRC rally because the greenies protested that rallying promotes dangerous driving and destroys the rainforest.

I bet they all drive to work and have air conditioned houses though...

Holy **** dude, seriously? I'd totally meet them with a baseball bat if I were you! No disturbing WRC.....