Vaccinations thread.

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I would rather my child die than grow up autistic.

This is the logic that is used by the most significant group of anti-vaxers if you throw your brain out of the window and humour their misbelief in science and evidence. As a genuine curiosity, are there any significant anti-vaccination groups that aren't because of either this or because of dumb religious reasons?
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Fear can be a big thing in it too, and some of the politicians are guilty of constantly generating it.
 
I have no sympathy for Anti-Vaxers but the Real Problem is when they pushing their dangerous stupidity on their kids when children are the most at risk of disease being they go to School.

Not vaxing your kids should be classed as Abuse and warrants foster care imo.

If they want to have this stupidity, go live in a Country that accepts stupidity.
 
Daz555
disproportionate number of people on the spectrum
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Would you be so kind as to elaborate?

I think it's simply a matter of current testing being more likely to indicate an individual as being on the spectrum than testing in the past was. That isn't to say current testing is more [or less] accurate, though.
 
TexRex
Would you be so kind as to elaborate?
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HenrySwanson is correct. My own Asperger's diagnosis helped me understand why I can form long computer routines in my head but can't hold a face to face conversation with real people, why I can play whole sonatas from memory despite often falling over when I try to entrouser myself, and why I so enjoy creating peculiar little collections of Precious Things that Mrs. Ten isn't allowed to touch.

It makes perfect sense to me that STEM would be full of super-idiots like me. It genuinely upsets me that the "autism" definition is bandied around like it's automatically a terrible thing - every one of my proper jobs has been based in one of my autistic traits.
 
TenEightyOne
HenrySwanson is correct. My own Asperger's diagnosis helped me understand why I can form long computer routines in my head but can't hold a face to face conversation with real people, why I can play whole sonatas from memory despite often falling over when I try to entrouser myself, and why I so enjoy creating peculiar little collections of Precious Things that Mrs. Ten isn't allowed to touch.

It makes perfect sense to me that STEM would be full of super-idiots like me. It genuinely upsets me that the "autism" definition is bandied around like it's automatically a terrible thing - every one of my proper jobs has been based in one of my autistic traits.
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Oooookaaaaayy...I didn't read the comment as it was written, it seems. I'm glad I phrased my response to @Daz555 the way I did, then.
 
7wtbycs7y0b31.png
 
TenEightyOne
At first glance I read the text as if @UKMikey had written it... a moment later I realised my mistake :)
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Yeah, no, I genuinely don't think him to be anti-vaccination. Given his posting habits in this thread, he'd be the self-hating sort...but then I suppose they all are.

What this illustrates so far beyond their stupidity is the fact that they're not merely fighting for liberty, rather they're a vile, malicious bunch. They've taken their stupidity and they've weaponized it.

I want life for these jackholes to be made as difficult as possible through law.
 
VFOURMAX1
But that was the leading cutting edge science of the times and the public was fed the same garbage that we are being fed today is that modern medicine has the answers and very possibly in the future it will be the same old song and dance they did not have a clue actually, but many will tell you that cannot be possible. No difference other than the era and the snake oil docs pushing their wares.
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Are you an anti-vaxxer? Why or why not?
 
VFOURMAX1
[captioned image employed to rebuff implications from the scientific community]
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Are you an anti-vaxxer? Why or why not?

In the interest of full disclosure, you really sound like one. On numerous occasions I've observed your refusal to accept that which is put forth by the scientific community, and I have to wonder if you accept the efficacy of vaccines which have also been put forth by the scientific community.

Still, I'm willing to give an earnest response from you the appropriate attention.
 
And in the meantime, on Samoa, people are dying of measles because nobody wanted to be vaccinated. And because now they have more than 60 completely preventable deaths, those still around want to be vaccinated ASAP.
 
Is measles really that bad? Had them as a kid (As did my sister), but as far as I remember it really wasn't that bad, just like the flu with itchy skin.

Chickenpox was way worse, at least that's how I remember it. The pain was terrible and it left scars all over my body.
 
Some say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but considering measles is known to damage the memory of the immune system, only make the person in question more susceptible to future infections, it's a very undesireable condition to have, even if it didn't maim or kill you outright.
 
Michael88
Is measles really that bad? Had them as a kid (As did my sister), but as far as I remember it really wasn't that bad, just like the flu with itchy skin.

Chickenpox was way worse, at least that's how I remember it. The pain was terrible and it left scars all over my body.
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I think that it is like every other preventable disease, it kills small children, old people and the weakest of society.
 
Michael88
Is measles really that bad? Had them as a kid (As did my sister), but as far as I remember it really wasn't that bad, just like the flu with itchy skin.

Chickenpox was way worse, at least that's how I remember it. The pain was terrible and it left scars all over my body.
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Diseases like chickenpox and measles killed people with ease in the past.

Honestly its really thanks to modern day medicine we are not really dying from diseases that killed so many in the past.

I find it stupid people are rejecting vaccines due to some dumb conspiracy theories.
 
Carbonox
Some say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but considering measles is known to damage the memory of the immune system, only make the person in question more susceptible to future infections, it's a very undesireable condition to have, even if it didn't maim or kill you outright.
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Diseases dont have to kill outright many people can could also be carriers of such diseases that can kill in the future.

Honestly how did the anti vaccine movement grow at such a pace today?? In the past people laughed at them as jokers. Now they are taken seriously.
 
SestoScudo
Diseases dont have to kill outright many people can could also be carriers of such diseases that can kill in the future.

Honestly how did the anti vaccine movement grow at such a pace today?? In the past people laughed at them as jokers. Now they are taken seriously.
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They grow fast because there are people with lot of subscribers on youtuber and twitter saying semi-intelligent stuff (and lies) which the followers feel they understand and think that they are intelligent because they are so dumb that they cannot realize the opposite. Because of the internet they join closed clubs and only hear positive reinforcements. If somebody is strongly religious (literal Bible believing and other stuff) they are more susceptible to these conspiracies.
 
SestoScudo
Diseases like chickenpox and measles killed people with ease in the past.

Honestly its really thanks to modern day medicine we are not really dying from diseases that killed so many in the past.

I find it stupid people are rejecting vaccines due to some dumb conspiracy theories.
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I don't know, I have to admit I'm totally stuck between the two factions. Vaccinations are awesome, we have defeated many of the worst and debilitating illnesses by this method and thus saved countless of lives, it totally works.

On the other hand it is ONE HELL of an infringement on your freedom, on life and well being to be forced to have injections you do not want for whatever reason.
It should not matter why you do not want it.- Its basically the same debate as that idea of having computer chips installed into your body for tracking and other security measures for the greater good - to prevent crime. The latter would probably help a LOT to decrease crime and to track criminals but I bet most people are totally against that idea.

And the other question is, if people can be forced to get vaccination injections, if this limit is overstepped, where does it stop? For example just recently scientists discovered that many well established and awesome anti biotics that have been prescribed for years DRAMATICALLY increase the chances of Parkinsons disease, and some are linked to cause Multiple Sclerosis directly. Well, ooops I guess. Both are illnesses that ruin your life completely and there is no cure.

Also I do suffer from a chronic inflammatory condition, I have been prescribed a dozen different medications over the past few years and I spent a lot of time in the hospital with experts trying to help me.
Let me tell you, we still know shockingly little about the human body, and the effects of most medications are only understood to maybe 50%, there is a lot of stuff happening we simply do not understand even with well established and often prescribed medications. I was prescribed a special drug that shuts down some parts of the immune system, a TNF-Alpha blocker, this has been used to deal with chronic inflammations since 2000, it is the most lucrative medication that has ever been released and it is VERY widely used today.
And then I read the papers about blocking TNF-alpha, there is a list several pages long where TNF-alpha might be involved (especially nerve regeneration) but we simply do not know. So there are several dozens probably very important processes in the body where this is involved, and it we block it with this widely used medication. There is a LOT of fumbling around in the dark, pharmacy is by far more vague and dangerous than most people realize, and we continually find out about really bad side effects from medications we have been using for decades, terrible side effects we never anticipated.

As I said, I'm totally torn here, I cannot deny the fact that vaccinations are simply awesome and that many lives were saved by it, on the other hand I find it hard to trust pharmacy since the effects of most medications are not very well understood, even those that we have been taking for decades. Also, I kind of dislike the idea of forcing people to get injections, or have other parts of their bodies modified against their will. This could open a dark path.....
 
Michael88
I don't know, I have to admit I'm totally stuck between the two factions. Vaccinations are awesome, we have defeated many of the worst and debilitating illnesses by this method and thus saved countless of lives, it totally works.

On the other hand it is ONE HELL of an infringement on your freedom, on life and well being to be forced to have injections you do not want for whatever reason.
It should not matter why you do not want it.- Its basically the same debate as that idea of having computer chips installed into your body for tracking and other security measures for the greater good - to prevent crime. The latter would probably help a LOT to decrease crime and to track criminals but I bet most people are totally against that idea.

And the other question is, if people can be forced to get vaccination injections, if this limit is overstepped, where does it stop? For example just recently scientists discovered that many well established and awesome anti biotics that have been prescribed for years DRAMATICALLY increase the chances of Parkinsons disease, and some are linked to cause Multiple Sclerosis directly. Well, ooops I guess. Both are illnesses that ruin your life completely and there is no cure.

Also I do suffer from a chronic inflammatory condition, I have been prescribed a dozen different medications over the past few years and I spent a lot of time in the hospital with experts trying to help me.
Let me tell you, we still know shockingly little about the human body, and the effects of most medications are only understood to maybe 50%, there is a lot of stuff happening we simply do not understand even with well established and often prescribed medications. I was prescribed a special drug that shuts down some parts of the immune system, a TNF-Alpha blocker, this has been used to deal with chronic inflammations since 2000, it is the most lucrative medication that has ever been released and it is VERY widely used today.
And then I read the papers about blocking TNF-alpha, there is a list several pages long where TNF-alpha might be involved (especially nerve regeneration) but we simply do not know. So there are several dozens probably very important processes in the body where this is involved, and it we block it with this widely used medication. There is a LOT of fumbling around in the dark, pharmacy is by far more vague and dangerous than most people realize, and we continually find out about really bad side effects from medications we have been using for decades, terrible side effects we never anticipated.

As I said, I'm totally torn here, I cannot deny the fact that vaccinations are simply awesome and that many lives were saved by it, on the other hand I find it hard to trust pharmacy since the effects of most medications are not very well understood, even those that we have been taking for decades. Also, I kind of dislike the idea of forcing people to get injections, or have other parts of their bodies modified against their will. This could open a dark path.....
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There are people who cannot get vaccinated because several reasons and they suffer because of anti-vaxxers, this is a good enough cause for me raise my voice against them.

Also I would trust a doctor much more than a concerned parent because one is at least got some education in the field.
 
Michael88
I don't know, I have to admit I'm totally stuck between the two factions. Vaccinations are awesome, we have defeated many of the worst and debilitating illnesses by this method and thus saved countless of lives, it totally works.

On the other hand it is ONE HELL of an infringement on your freedom, on life and well being to be forced to have injections you do not want for whatever reason.
It should not matter why you do not want it.- Its basically the same debate as that idea of having computer chips installed into your body for tracking and other security measures for the greater good - to prevent crime. The latter would probably help a LOT to decrease crime and to track criminals but I bet most people are totally against that idea.

And the other question is, if people can be forced to get vaccination injections, if this limit is overstepped, where does it stop? For example just recently scientists discovered that many well established and awesome anti biotics that have been prescribed for years DRAMATICALLY increase the chances of Parkinsons disease, and some are linked to cause Multiple Sclerosis directly. Well, ooops I guess. Both are illnesses that ruin your life completely and there is no cure.

Also I do suffer from a chronic inflammatory condition, I have been prescribed a dozen different medications over the past few years and I spent a lot of time in the hospital with experts trying to help me.
Let me tell you, we still know shockingly little about the human body, and the effects of most medications are only understood to maybe 50%, there is a lot of stuff happening we simply do not understand even with well established and often prescribed medications. I was prescribed a special drug that shuts down some parts of the immune system, a TNF-Alpha blocker, this has been used to deal with chronic inflammations since 2000, it is the most lucrative medication that has ever been released and it is VERY widely used today.
And then I read the papers about blocking TNF-alpha, there is a list several pages long where TNF-alpha might be involved (especially nerve regeneration) but we simply do not know. So there are several dozens probably very important processes in the body where this is involved, and it we block it with this widely used medication. There is a LOT of fumbling around in the dark, pharmacy is by far more vague and dangerous than most people realize, and we continually find out about really bad side effects from medications we have been using for decades, terrible side effects we never anticipated.

As I said, I'm totally torn here, I cannot deny the fact that vaccinations are simply awesome and that many lives were saved by it, on the other hand I find it hard to trust pharmacy since the effects of most medications are not very well understood, even those that we have been taking for decades. Also, I kind of dislike the idea of forcing people to get injections, or have other parts of their bodies modified against their will. This could open a dark path.....
Click to expand...

You're mixing issues a bit. There is a lot that we do not know about the human body and medication. But there are areas where we know a lot, and vaccination is one of those areas. While I agree that no adult should be forced to receive vaccinations that does not absolve them of the responsibility of that choice - which can include responsibility for infecting others.
 
Danoff
You're mixing issues a bit. There is a lot that we do not know about the human body and medication. But there are areas where we know a lot, and vaccination is one of those areas. While I agree that no adult should be forced to receive vaccinations that does not absolve them of the responsibility of that choice - which can include responsibility for infecting others.
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The problem with that is since we don't know HALF of the processes that are going on in the human body, especially with the immune system, we cannot be certain that drug XYZ will not not cause extreme harm in some people under some circumstances. Even with vaccinations.
Despite sensible drug testing procedures there were many cases where drugs were taken off the market many years after their release and widespread use, sometimes even decades because eventually people realized that they do cause severe side effects that were simply very hard to trace back to the drug, or triggered terrible things many years after use.
That just happened with several antibiotics which, as I mentioned, contain certain substances that were responsible for triggering debilitating and deadly neurological diseases (MS, Parkinsons) in some people many years after their use. Well, those people have effectively been killed by those drugs, and they will die a horrible death. Well, oops.

Now vaccinations are a somewhat different animal for sure, but I'm absolutely certain that there are -yet- unknown high risk groups for certain vaccinations that will suffer severely from those injections.

Of course, nothing is perfect or absolutely save, and you save many more lives by forcing people to take vaccinations. Those few who will suffer from debilitating side effects are just a small statistic, and the greater good is more important. And that's correct. Until it hits you, then you will change your mind immediately.

Yes, there are professionals whose job it is to make sure the risks are as low as possible, but due to a relatively widespread but at the same time severe chronic illness I've had to consult and get treated by internationally acknowledged specialists who are on the absolute forefront of their field, and I have to tell you, I'm absolutely shocked, SHOCKED how little even the best actually know. Its absolutely terrifying.
Widespread drugs are prescribed to patients where even the experts and those who manufactured them don't exactly know how they even work, but they treat people with it anyway, its absolutely crazy sometimes. But I digress.

Besides all what I just said there is another factor - people taking needles and injecting stuff into you against your will is simply a morally abhorrent practice on the same level as doing modifications to your body against your will. That's a door that needs to stay shut for as long as possible.
 
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Michael88
Yes, there are professionals whose job it is to make sure the risks are as low as possible, but due to a relatively widespread but at the same time severe chronic illness I've had to consult and get treated by internationally acknowledged specialists who are on the absolute forefront of their field, and I have to tell you, I'm absolutely shocked, SHOCKED how little even the best actually know. Its absolutely terrifying.
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I've been there. I understand.

Michael88
Now vaccinations are a somewhat different animal for sure, but I'm absolutely certain that there are -yet- unknown high risk groups for certain vaccinations that will suffer severely from those injections.
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Yup, they're a different animal. They expose the body to the virus. The side effects of not vaccinating include... exposing the body to the virus. Either way you're going to get exposed to the virus. I understand your skepticism, but it makes no sense to compare unknowns of antibiotic use (your body does depend on bacteria after all), to the unknowns of vaccination. It's not remotely similar.
 
Danoff
Yup, they're a different animal. They expose the body to the virus. The side effects of not vaccinating include... exposing the body to the virus. Either way you're going to get exposed to the virus. I understand your skepticism, but it makes no sense to compare unknowns of antibiotic use (your body does depend on bacteria after all), to the unknowns of vaccination. It's not remotely similar.
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If it were that easy I would not have an issue.

Not every immune system reacts the exact same way, people are very different. There have been some hints to certain immune systems reacting quite badly to certain stimulants, it can be a virus, a bacterial infection, foreign bodies - what have you. Said immune systems then, for reasons still not understood well started to react differently to non-foreign cells in the body, leading to chronic inflammatory diseases, or they went very trigger happy, - allergies. Its like immune system PTSD.

There are already strong indicators that certain illnesses caused by viruses can dramatically rise risks for chronic inflammatory diseases or allergies rise long after having destroyed the viruses. Some scientists already think that every time an immune system gets triggered hard by any kind of stimulant, risks for chronic inflammable diseases or triggering chronic diseases (Especially if you have genetic predispositions) rise a lot.

In a nutshell: there are already strong indicators that immune responses of certain magnitudes or kinds CAN trigger very bad stuff in SOME people for reasons not yet understood. Especially if they have genetic predispositions.

I think its wrong to a say that all people will react the exact same way to a drug or vaccination. No two people react exactly the same to ANYTHING.
 
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