Was "Veyron poll" - Then "VAG/GM discussion" - Now "Veyron discussion again"

[Poverty]

Blazings ignorance is amzing isnt it. Firstly the skoda fabia is basically just a cheaper version of what VW's sell. Simple as.

Seat is between skoda and VW. Theyre again just cheap VWs but sportier.
I know how you have been getting all excited about saturn sellings opels but these skodas are better. People just arent used to the badge yet. Skoda sales are only held back by its image.

Secondly out of all the japanese manufacturers Honda are doing the best in europe because they dont sell cheap cars. Toyota do and therefore people dont buy them. If toyota want to be a force in europe they need to stop being boring. Lexus is trying to sell but everyone can see theyre just a BMW wannabe.

Europe has a small population, the far east has a huge population...therefore more people will buy Japanese and Korean cars.

Its a pity then that the german car companies are making huge profits in those markets and expanding at an amazing pace. Do you want to see the figures for those aswell? Or will you take my word for it once and not look silly?

Korean cars are now what japanese cars are and for the likes of toyota they can only go down. Toyota will never have the luxury market, which is growing extremly fast.

ccording to you they are one of the most powerful companies in the world (which they aren't)

Wich are the 5 most powerful acr companies in the world then blazing?

 

[Joey D]

Blazings ignorance is amzing isnt it.

I'm going to please ask you to stop with the personal attacks or I am going to hit that report button. Why not just stay civil? There is no need for name calling or anything in that way of thinking. Just put it to rest, because I'm trying to have a civil discussion here. It's fine to disagree, just do it in a way where you aren't a complete fool.

Seat is between skoda and VW. Theyre again just cheap VWs but sportier.
I know how you have been getting all excited about saturn sellings opels but these skodas are better. People just arent used to the badge yet. Skoda sales are only held back by its image.

Do Seats and Skodas sell out side of Europe and possibly Russia? But I have traveled to Europe like I've said and I saw very few of Skodas and Seats while I was over there. The most common cars I saw was those real little city cars made by Japanese companies.

Secondly out of all the japanese manufacturers Honda are doing the best in europe because they dont sell cheap cars. Toyota do and therefore people dont buy them. If toyota want to be a force in europe they need to stop being boring. Lexus is trying to sell but everyone can see theyre just a BMW wannabe.

Honda's are expensive in Europe? In the UK (according to the Honda UK site) the Civic is 12,900 pounds while the Jetta is 14,635 pounds. Both are compact sedans and it appears the Civic is cheaper.

Its a pity then that the german car companies are making huge profits in those markets and expanding at an amazing pace. Do you want to see the figures for those aswell? Or will you take my word for it once and not look silly?

Look at Japanese profits. They have the Asian market as well as the American market. Not to mention the Austrailian market. German cars have the German market.

Korean cars are now what japanese cars are and for the likes of toyota they can only go down. Toyota will never have the luxury market, which is growing extremly fast.

Wow, someone actually thinks Toyota will go down. And Toyota has a good part of the luxury market, the new Lexus's are extremely nice cars and will sell quite well in Asian countries as well as in America.

Wich are the 5 most powerful acr companies in the world then blazing?

I would say Toyota is one of them, as well as Honda, and General Motors (although they've given up their Asian share more or less). But then again Honda has a huge group other then cars, they have bikes, ATV's, and even generators, lawnmowers, and stuff like that. So they have a huge market. Hyandai is one with a huge market as well.

It's hard to tell since so many car companies don't sell just cars.

 

[Poverty]

And Toyota has a good part of the luxury market, the new Lexus's are extremely nice cars and will sell quite well in Asian countries as well as in America.

Funny that last I read the german manufacturers were out selling lexus. Not even their own people want to drive luxurious toyotas. And TVR has quite a big market there considering the size of the company.

Look at Japanese profits

Look at german profits. And it rises on average about 17% each year. Never mind that BMW mercedes and audi are all planning onslaughts of new vehicles in teh next couple years.

GM do have power. But not the power to start making a profit anytime soon. In a powerlist VAG would probably be ahead of them. Mercedes used to be like the 4th most powerful in the world. Then they brought chrysler and that went belly up. They are back on their way upwards though. Even audi was outselling mercedes at one point.

Honda's are expensive in Europe? In the UK (according to the Honda UK site) the Civic is 12,900 pounds while the Jetta is 14,635 pounds. Both are compact sedans and it appears the Civic is cheaper.

Compare the civic to the golf. The golf starts at £12k and VW want to replace it quickly because its too expensive to make.

 

[Joey D]

Funny that last I read the german manufacturers were out selling lexus. Not even their own people want to drive luxurious toyotas. And TVR has quite a big market there considering the size of the company.

Do TVR's sell anywhere else in the world besides Europe? And I think this one will be left for live4speed since he is pretty much the all knowing force on the TVR subject. He also would be able to tell you the profit margins and whatever else you need to know. But I don't consider TVR lux cars (L4S might prove me wrong though).

And did I say anything about Europe? No. I said in Asian countries and in America they sell quite well. I see far more Lexus's, Acura's, and Infiniti's then I do Audi's, BMW's, and Mercedes. And this is not just in Michigan, this is all over the place.

Look at german profits. And it rises on average about 17% each year. Never mind that BMW mercedes and audi are all planning onslaughts of new vehicles in teh next couple years.

I've seen German profits, and they don't sell to a big enough market to mean anything. Sure they go up 17%, but that doesn't mean much when you don't make a ton of profit in the first place. If GM went up 17% they would make a lot of money.

And guess what? Every car company is planning new cars in the next few years, if they weren't, nothing would sell.

GM do have power. But not the power to start making a profit anytime soon. In a powerlist VAG would probably be ahead of them. Mercedes used to be like the 4th most powerful in the world. Then they brought chrysler and that went belly up. They are back on their way upwards though. Even audi was outselling mercedes at one point.

GM makes a profit, but they turn around and sink all the money back into the company. Hence why they are losing money, they are sinking to much into the company. VAG would not be ahead of them, GM is a world market, VAG really isn't.

It's Mercedes own fault for buying Chysler...although Chysler took Mercedes technology and made better use out of it. Take the Crossfire, it's nothing more then a Mercedes with tweaks, but its faster, cheaper, and a better car. It's ashame it didn't sell.

 

[Poverty]

The crossfire was a POS. Thats why it didnt sell well. Chrysler screwed up the handling and use horrible cheap quality parts and it basically fell apart. Theres a chrysler garage justa round the corner from me. Usually when you go to a place that has a car dealer you will see lots of that manufacturers cars in the immediate area. Not in this place though, people dont want it. It looks like a dog thats bending down to do a poo like jeremy clarkson said.

VAG is a world market to. They sell cars in every continent, and in most countries. If I look it up they probably outsell GM in africa and asia along with europe.

I also never said TVR's are luxury cars but they are luxury items though.

MB sells something like 2.2 million cars a year. Dont try and tell me thats not alot.

 

[Joey D]

The crossfire was a POS. Thats why it didnt sell well. Chrysler screwed up the handling and use horrible cheap quality parts and it basically fell apart. Theres a chrysler garage justa round the corner from me. Usually when you go to a place that has a car dealer you will see lots of that manufacturers cars in the immediate area. Not in this place though, people dont want it. It looks like a dog thats bending down to do a poo like jeremy clarkson said.

Actually it wasn't because it's still a Mercedes SLK with Chysler tweeks done to it. I'm almost certian you have no idea what you are talking about on this one, since a good friend of mine owns one (his dad was part of the project). He's never had a problem with his and it's much faster then anything I've been it. I rather like it in the way that its a decent car. I'll ask him to give me details on the car.

VAG is a world market to. They sell cars in every continent, and in most countries. If I look it up they probably outsell GM in africa and asia along with europe.

Cars don't even sell in most parts of Africa, and when I do see photos from Africa and people are in vehicles, they are typically Toyota trucks or SUV's. VAG is hardly a world market, you need to be a contender in all part of the world to do that. Does Japan have them? Korea? China? Asia is a big market and GM did the right thing with China.

 

[Poverty]

Actually it wasn't because it's still a Mercedes SLK with Chysler tweeks done to it. I'm almost certian you have no idea what you are talking about on this one, since a good friend of mine owns one (his dad was part of the project). He's never had a problem with his and it's much faster then anything I've been it. I rather like it in the way that its a decent car. I'll ask him to give me details on the car.

You need to read up on the car then. Chrysler managed to turn a world car of the years chassis into something European journalists ripped into.

Cars don't even sell in most parts of Africa, and when I do see photos from Africa and people are in vehicles, they are typically Toyota trucks or SUV's. VAG is hardly a world market, you need to be a contender in all part of the world to do that. Does Japan have them? Korea? China? Asia is a big market and GM did the right thing with China.

Cars sell enough in africa for VW to still make MK1 golfs except with more modern technology.

VAG sells around 11 million cars a year. Thtas alot. How much did GM sell last year? Surely a GM man would know the figure.

Audi sales in Russia up 43% in Q1

China Feb luxury car sales up 354 pct, fastest-growing vehicle segment.

BEIJING (AFX) - Luxury cars achieved the highest sales growth of all passenger vehicle segments in China in February, Automotive Resources Asia Ltd (ARA) said.

In its monthly report on China's auto market, ARA said that luxury car sales in February rose 354 pct from the same month last year to 8,732 units.

For the first two months of the year, luxury car sales reached 17,982 units, representing 3.1 pct of China's passenger vehicle market, ARA added.

The best-selling vehicle in the segment was the Audi A6, with 3,168 unit sales in February, up from 853 sales in the same month last year.

The Audi A6 is priced between 328,000 and 725,000 yuan, ARA said.

Volkswagen's 50-50 joint venture with First Automotive Works, FAW-VW, sells Audi's A6 and A4 models.

Audi's A4, which has a price tag between 270,000 and 479,000 yuan, recorded triple digit growth to reach 803 sales, compared with just 189 in February 2005, ARA said.

The second-best selling luxury vehicle was Toyota's Crown, which the Japanese automaker produces through it's joint venture with First Automotive Works - Tianjin FAW Toyota.

Crown sales reached 2,480 units in February.

The vehicle was was launched in China last year with a price tag of between 298,000 and 480,000 yuan.

BMW Brilliance saw sales of its BMW grow 58 pct to 1,306 in February, positioning it in third place, ARA said.

BMW yesterday said it has raised prices of its cars in China due to a new vehicle consumption tax in the country, effective from April 1.

The decision reflects automakers' concerns over the regulations, which aim to reduce China's energy consumption by increasing sales tax on vehicles with large engine displacements while reducing charges on smaller ones.

But analysts have said that the new tax structure may not lead to a major change in consumer demand, as buyers of larger, luxury vehicles are typically either affluent individuals purchasing cars as status symbols or officials and business users, where cost is not a key driver in the decision-making process.

 

[Joey D]

You need to read up on the car then. Chrysler managed to turn a world car of the years chassis into something European journalists ripped into.

I've never seen a good review of an American car from European journalist...they are horrifically biased. At least in America when they say something that Americans built sucks, it typically does.

Cars sell enough in africa for VW to still make MK1 golfs except with more modern technology.

Like I said most people in Africa if they are luckey enough to own something with wheels other then a motorcycle, it's probably going to be a Toyota truck of some sorts. Remember these people are thrid world for the most part.

VAG sells around 11 million cars a year. Thtas alot. How much did GM sell last year? Surely a GM man would know the figure.

I couldn't tell you since I don't know the numbers for Opel, Holden, or Saab. And I surely couldn't tell you what it was world wide. The best number I can get is something that doesn't include Holden or Opel and thats about 10 million cars.

 

[Poverty]

I've never seen a good review of an American car from European journalist...they are horrifically biased. At least in America when they say something that Americans built sucks, it typically does.

Plenty of good Z06 reviews thats shows up plenty of homegrown talent! I dont think theyre biased at all. I think americans mags are baised towards theyre domestic cars sometimes. But that could be because we have plenty of sharp and swooping corners.

 

[davygravy]

The way it is a great engineering acheivement it that it had to meet the following requirements:

It had to produce 1000bhp while retaining the look of the bodyshell from the concept car

It had to be reliable as a Golf

It had to be well made

It had to quiet and cossetting

It had to have 16 cylinders

It had to be easy to drive

It had to be the worlds fastest acclerating car

It had to crack 250mph

They are what make the car an engineering masterpiece. Now lets see if you and a few buddys could design and build something like this.

 

[Joey D]

Plenty of good Z06 reviews thats shows up plenty of homegrown talent! I dont think theyre biased at all. I think americans mags are baised towards theyre domestic cars sometimes. But that could be because we have plenty of sharp and swooping corners.

American magazines are biased towards Japanese cars if anything.

It had to be the worlds fastest acclerating car

Is it? This is something I do not know.

 

[Poverty]

In 2004 GM nearly sold 9 million cars globally. Its gone downhill from there really.

General Motors Corp. , the world's largest automaker, has been the global industry sales leader since 1931. Founded in 1908, GM today employs about 325,000 people around the world. It has manufacturing operations in 32 countries and its vehicles are sold in 200 countries. In 2004, GM sold nearly 9 million cars and trucks globally, up 4 percent and the second-highest total in the company's history. GM's global headquarters are at the GM Renaissance Center in Detroit. More information on GM can be found at www.gm.com.

 

[Joey D]

That doesn't include companies like Opel, Holden, Saab, Daewoo, Suzuki (when they had part of it) and Subaru (when they had part of it). I have never seen a figure with those added into it. When I see GM figures its always Chevy, GMC, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, and Caddy.

Also it do not include heavy duty truck sales.

BTW if you are going post a thing like that it's always good to add a web adress to see if it's creditable or not.

 

[Joey D]

This says differently

General Motors Corp. enjoyed its best sales month in nearly 20 years as sales soared 41 percent in June. Consumers responded positively to the company's offer of employee discounts to all buyers.

GM sales were boosted to a blockbuster 18 million units annualized during the period.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/GM_Sales_Explode_in_June.S175.A8862.html

 

[Poverty]

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/12/01/153761.html

In 2005, 9.17 million GM cars and trucks were sold globally under the following brands: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, GM Daewoo, Holden, HUMMER, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn and Vauxhall.

 

[Leonidae]

we're talking of Bugatti here, not about some souped (riced) up cars. why wouldn't you sum up why it isn't an engineering marvel from your point of view?

these have been mentioned earlier:

-7 speed gearbox. similar to one in an F1 car, but lasts way longer than approximately 4 hours or 1000miles and delivers 1250 nm to the road easily. I'd like to see another stock gearbox that does the same.

-8 liter W16 quad-turbo engine. official output number is 1001 bhp, but, as in all turbo/supercharged cars, it depends on air temperature and altitude. engineers calculated that at sea level, at 20'C it produces more like 150 bhp. and it has 4 smallish turbochargers, just to keep the torque and power present from 2200 rpms to 5500 rpms. there's no peak, just flat power all the way thru. why? just to keep it under control. peaky engine means more tyre wear and stress on drivetrain.

-top speed of 252mph. just because VW's current boss, Ferdinand Piech told them to do a car that produces 1001 bhp and does 250mph+. it was a challenge to their engineers, just to see if it could be done. and it could, after fighting thru loads of problems with the cooling the engine and keeping the car stabile at LIMITED top speed. it is faster, but at higher speeds, it wasn't stabile enough, thus, they limited it.

-weight. for pete's sake, it's a grand tourer for rich people, who want air conditioning, power seats, power windows, power steering, leather finish and diamonds in the clock! and it has them! it never was meant to be anything else but most expensive, most brutal and fastest gt-class car. and that's what it is.

if we start dealing with what if's we could go on for god knows how long and it wouldn't change the fact that this car IS a masterpiece and typical Bugatti ( heavy and luxurious, yet comfortable and fast).

 

[Dave A]

Do TVR's sell anywhere else in the world besides Europe? And I think this one will be left for live4speed since he is pretty much the all knowing force on the TVR subject. He also would be able to tell you the profit margins and whatever else you need to know. But I don't consider TVR lux cars (L4S might prove me wrong though).

No, I won't prove you wrong, TVR has never made so much as an attempt at a luxury car, stylish interiors perhaps, but luxury, no. They used to sell in low volume in the US as well as Europe but currently sell in Europe and Japan only, that's not conting anyone importing in another country/region one at thier own cost ofcourse.

 

[Famine]

we're talking of Bugatti here, not about some souped (riced) up cars. why wouldn't you sum up why it isn't an engineering marvel from your point of view?

these have been mentioned earlier:

-7 speed gearbox. similar to one in an F1 car, but lasts way longer than approximately 4 hours or 1000miles and delivers 1250 nm to the road easily. I'd like to see another stock gearbox that does the same.

-8 liter W16 quad-turbo engine. official output number is 1001 bhp, but, as in all turbo/supercharged cars, it depends on air temperature and altitude. engineers calculated that at sea level, at 20'C it produces more like 150 bhp. and it has 4 smallish turbochargers, just to keep the torque and power present from 2200 rpms to 5500 rpms. there's no peak, just flat power all the way thru. why? just to keep it under control. peaky engine means more tyre wear and stress on drivetrain.

-top speed of 252mph. just because VW's current boss, Ferdinand Piech told them to do a car that produces 1001 bhp and does 250mph+. it was a challenge to their engineers, just to see if it could be done. and it could, after fighting thru loads of problems with the cooling the engine and keeping the car stabile at LIMITED top speed. it is faster, but at higher speeds, it wasn't stabile enough, thus, they limited it.

-weight. for pete's sake, it's a grand tourer for rich people, who want air conditioning, power seats, power windows, power steering, leather finish and diamonds in the clock! and it has them! it never was meant to be anything else but most expensive, most brutal and fastest gt-class car. and that's what it is.

if we start dealing with what if's we could go on for god knows how long and it wouldn't change the fact that this car IS a masterpiece and typical Bugatti ( heavy and luxurious, yet comfortable and fast).

And it has a standard VAG service schedule and warranty.

 

[Poverty]

we're talking of Bugatti here, not about some souped (riced) up cars. why wouldn't you sum up why it isn't an engineering marvel from your point of view?

these have been mentioned earlier:

-7 speed gearbox. similar to one in an F1 car, but lasts way longer than approximately 4 hours or 1000miles and delivers 1250 nm to the road easily. I'd like to see another stock gearbox that does the same.

-8 liter W16 quad-turbo engine. official output number is 1001 bhp, but, as in all turbo/supercharged cars, it depends on air temperature and altitude. engineers calculated that at sea level, at 20'C it produces more like 150 bhp. and it has 4 smallish turbochargers, just to keep the torque and power present from 2200 rpms to 5500 rpms. there's no peak, just flat power all the way thru. why? just to keep it under control. peaky engine means more tyre wear and stress on drivetrain.

-top speed of 252mph. just because VW's current boss, Ferdinand Piech told them to do a car that produces 1001 bhp and does 250mph+. it was a challenge to their engineers, just to see if it could be done. and it could, after fighting thru loads of problems with the cooling the engine and keeping the car stabile at LIMITED top speed. it is faster, but at higher speeds, it wasn't stabile enough, thus, they limited it.

-weight. for pete's sake, it's a grand tourer for rich people, who want air conditioning, power seats, power windows, power steering, leather finish and diamonds in the clock! and it has them! it never was meant to be anything else but most expensive, most brutal and fastest gt-class car. and that's what it is.

if we start dealing with what if's we could go on for god knows how long and it wouldn't change the fact that this car IS a masterpiece and typical Bugatti ( heavy and luxurious, yet comfortable and fast).

Good summary 👍

Blazing will you know acknoweldge that its a engineering wonder, and also that VAG is one of the most powerful car companies in the world?

 

[Leonidae]

Thanks for backing me up, Famine.

 

[Joey D]

we're talking of Bugatti here, not about some souped (riced) up cars

A Henessy is far from rice and so is a 1000 hp Supra.

-7 speed gearbox. similar to one in an F1 car, but lasts way longer than approximately 4 hours or 1000miles and delivers 1250 nm to the road easily. I'd like to see another stock gearbox that does the same.

Lexus has an 8-speed, big deal. Mercedes has had a 7-speed for a while if my memory serves me correctly. And you want to see a strong gear box? Look at the Alison trasmissions on Silverado 3500 diesel pick up trucks.

Blazing will you know acknoweldge that its a engineering wonder, and also that VAG is one of the most powerful car companies in the world?

No I will not acknowledge its an engineering wonder, because in my opinion it is not. Engineering wonders require something more then a fat car with a big turboed engine for me to be impressed.

And I still doubt that VAG is one of the most powerful companies in the world.

 

[Poverty]

Mercedes has 7 speed automatics in their AMGs because they were having trouble finding gearboxes that could cope with all the torque theyre engine produced.

 

[Dave A]

Leonidae, the only thing in the summary is the top speed limit, it's not the car that's unstable over that, it's the tyre's staying in one peice. That's what I read anyway, tyre's hadn't been tested as much over that speed and VAG didn't want anyone attempting a V-Max run to find his car with no tyre's at 255mph..

 

[kjb]

Personally I think its an engineering masterpiece. Is it a waste of money? What sports car or grand tourer is not a waste of money? I think VW succeed with the Veyron because 1. It creates a halo car for Bugatti 2. It creates a stir becuase people either like it or they hate it. Regardless it has people talking which at the end of day is exactly what VW wanted.

 

[the Interceptor]

Okay, I've read the whole discussion, and I think we're slowly getting there.

But before I begin, here's some little story that is a true engineering archievement for me. I read this in a german car magazine some time ago. It was a story about the Honda S2000 and one of its predecessors, the S800. That's a car from the sixties, with an engine Honda is well known for - high-revving. Its redline was at 11000 rpm, and it put out something like 70+ hp. Now, one day some engineers wanted to find out how many revs this engine will actually do, so they took it out of the car and put it on a dynamometer. At 13000 revs, it exploded - not the engine, the dynamometer. After that, they put the engine back, and it still worked well. That is an engineering archievement for me.

Okay, back to the Veyron. I do think that it is an engineering archievement, and that it's not a waste of money. Of course, you can get 1001hp from a smaller engine, use less turbos (or even none), make a car go faster than 252mph, make a gearbox that manages more than 1250Nm, and so on...
The art lies in putting all of this together, and make a comfortable, driveable and beautiful car (ok, that's a matter of taste) that also is reliable. If you consider every detail, the Bugatti is not just a big car with a big engine. And it did what it was supposed to do - put Bugatti back in business with a big bang.

Oh, and there's another thing - how can you blame the car for not being driven on the open road? Isn't that the owners fault?

Regards
the Interceptor

 

[Leonidae]

right on spot. 👍

 

[Joey D]

Personally I think its an engineering masterpiece. Is it a waste of money? What sports car or grand tourer is not a waste of money? I think VW succeed with the Veyron because 1. It creates a halo car for Bugatti 2. It creates a stir becuase people either like it or they hate it. Regardless it has people talking which at the end of day is exactly what VW wanted.

Your last two sentences are spot on, I hate the car, but look at what kind of discussion it has raised.

 

[Poverty]

Now we see his true colours. He just hates the car. Nothing to do with it being an achievement or not. I used to hate yet it now I cant help but like it.

 

[Dave A]

In fairness, he didn't say that, he said he agree's that it's a like it hate it car, and that it's successful in getting people talking about it, which is what VAG wanted.

I still dissagree with him that it's a technical marvel.

 

[Joey D]

Now we see his true colours. He just hates the car. Nothing to do with it being an achievement or not. I used to hate yet it now I cant help but like it.

This is not true.

In fairness, he didn't say that, he said he agree's that it's a like it hate it car, and that it's successful in getting people talking about it, which is what VAG wanted.

This is.

L4S gets where I'm coming from, he might not agree but I think he understands what I'm saying. Poverty you are just twisting what I'm saying to make it look like I hate anything that isn't a Z06, which is false.

It is a love it or hate it car, like a lot of cars...in fact I think most cars are either love it or hate it. It all depends on the person personal taste.