Welp. Someone has to say it.... (AI thread)

[RedSuinit]

Because SOMEONE is so stubborn that he thinks that reverse lights should not be in GT5, even though he has been out proven, he cannot admit it. Here, i'll post a poll. Let's see who is more wrong.

Are you serious? When did I ever say that? Please, PLEASE, show me where I said that they shouldn't be in there. No one has proven anything. Every arguement that has been presented before me, I have offered a counter-arguement. Nothing more. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't give you the right to insult myself or Dravonic. PERIOD. Please show some respect for the AUP.

Thank you for clarifying that you were talking about me, reported.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

RedSuinit said: "Well it doesn't claim to be a graphics simulator, does it? No, it claims to be a DRIVING simulator. Guess what, reverse lights have no affect on how a vehicle drives."

This is supporting the fact that reverse lights should not be in GT5.

Also, the stubborn I called you is different. The stubborn I'm calling you is in a action form. The stubborn you are thinking of is in a characteristic. Anyway, who said being stubborn is bad?

 

[RedSuinit]

RedSuinit said: "Well it doesn't claim to be a graphics simulator, does it? No, it claims to be a DRIVING simulator. Guess what, reverse lights have no affect on how a vehicle drives."

This is supporting the fact that reverse lights should not be in GT5.

Also, the stubborn I called you is different. The stubborn I'm calling you is in a action form. The stubborn you are thinking of is in a characteristic. Anyway, who said being stubborn is bad?

I'm sorry, but your logic is very flawed. That statement only means that the fact that there are no reverse lights in the game at it's current state has no effect on what GT has claimed to be. Also, clarifying that Lucas' statements about regarding GT as a "graphics simulator" are completely irrelevant since GT has never claimed to be such a "graphics simulator". Nowhere in that statement is there the implication that I believe that they should not be included in the game. It would be a nice polishing touch, however I do not hold them in as high a regard as a necessity as others here. You have only proved yourself wrong. Sorry.

 

[Kingdizzi]

140+ people are working on this game and I'm sure at least one of them is aware of how retarded the A.I is. They know how the AI is and seem to be happy with it, why I do not know. Maybe it is because if the AI is good and aggressive then casual gamers will go "oh **** this" or maybe it is simply the case that Yamauchi does not see any problem with the AI.

Either way we are not going to see the AI get much better from what we have already seen, at this point PD will surely just be polishing the game up. Remember the 'hardcore' gamers whom complain about AI, lack of tire marks on tracks, painting cars because they were deprived of colouring books as children make up a tiny minority of the people whom buy GT games so.........whatever.

 

[Dravonic]

140+ people are working on this game and I'm sure at least one of them is aware of how retarded the A.I is. They know how the AI is and seem to be happy with it, why I do not know. Maybe it is because if the AI is good and aggressive then casual gamers will go "oh **** this" or maybe it is simply the case that Yamauchi does not see any problem with the AI.

Either way we are not going to see the AI get much better from what we have already seen, at this point PD will surely just be polishing the game up. Remember the 'hardcore' gamers whom complain about AI, lack of tire marks on tracks, painting cars because they were deprived of colouring books as children make up a tiny minority of the people whom buy GT games so.........whatever.

Nice one

It's kind of a mystery to me why GT lacks in some areas. You can argue that you can't have everything perfect but I don't really know why they can't have the 3D artist work for a few more hours to light that reverse light or why they can't have a few extra heads to work on the AI. If you can spend 60 millions on the game and make tons more when you release it, an extra million to get those details right shouldn't be a problem.

Anyway, I seem to share Kazunori's priority list for the most part. So the things that are missing don't normally bother me.

I want my big boy's crayon though. Bring that livery editor Kazunori!

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Here we go again, if you guys are happy with what ever PD will deliver, ok, why even bother?... The A.I. in GT is decent? Maybe on GT1 in 1997...

Well you asked me to enlighten you on how GT is detailed and when I tried to you didn't agree, so I assumed you don't think it is. Anyways, lack of reverse lights. You're missing something here. Because GT has such advanced graphics it's not that easy to put reverse lights in the cars

Yes, it is.

(although that's not true for GT4 and below. It would be a lot simpler to put reverse lights on them).
Notice how the brake and head lights lit up as they do in the real cars.
When it comes to GT5, unlike the average joe's, it's not just lighting up a fake light that looks pretty much the same on every car.

It's exactly that, they don't even seem to blink if you tap the brakes quickly like on a real car.

It's serious work.

Oh? That's why it's not working?

And when you consider doing it for about a thousand cars, it becomes a time demanding task.

Maybe it wasn't if they wouldn't need to have 500k+ polygons on their cars rather than put some effort on track textures, A.I., working lights or even working tires.

Sure that's no excuse and I'm not trying to come up with an excuse for PD. I'm just trying to let you know it's not that simple as you're making it out to be.

I think KY just doesn't give 🤬 about details that would make his zombie- baby look and feel actually living and breathing...

Anyway, I think I got it. Even though the game is full of details, since it's lacking one of great importance to you, you feel it's a letdown in the detail department. Since I don't care about reverse lights, and little things like reflections on the steering wheel logo look awesome to me, I think it delivers in details.

You might be satisfied with this, but for me working lights, skidmarks or tiremarks (for rally, can you imagine play a rally stage without leaving any tiremarks ?), dust and oil, tire rubber collecting on track, not to mention weather and proper damage... are wayyyy more important than a stupid little reflection on a steering wheel which I'll probably see once , say wow and move on.


I know this wasn't directly aimed at me,
I'm just trying to explain why I think details, or rather lack of, to me (and probably more people than you'd think) seem at least as important than physics and shiny cars.

👍

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Here we go again......

+1:tup:

 

[Dravonic]

Here we go again, if you guys are happy with what ever PD will deliver, ok, why even bother?... The A.I. in GT is decent? Maybe on GT1 in 1997...

Yes, it is.

It's exactly that, they don't even seem to blink if you tap the brakes quickly like on a real car.
Oh? That's why it's not working?
Maybe it wasn't if they wouldn't need to have 500k+ polygons on their cars rather than put some effort on track textures, A.I., working lights or even working tires.
I think KY just doesn't give 🤬 about details that would make his zombie- baby look and feel actually living and breathing...



You might be satisfied with this, but for me working lights, skidmarks or tiremarks (for rally, can you imagine play a rally stage without leaving any tiremarks ?), dust and oil, tire rubber collecting on track, not to mention weather and proper damage... are wayyyy more important than a stupid little reflection on a steering wheel which I'll probably see once , say wow and move on.


I know this wasn't directly aimed at me,
I'm just trying to explain why I think details, or rather lack of, to me (and probably more people than you'd think) seem at least as important than physics and shiny cars.

👍

Well I don't feel like responding to you. It's obviously just a rage outburst. You're not making much sense. Read it again with a calm mind I guess.

I do want to clarify though that I'm not happy with whatever PD delivers. I do have expectations that I want met. It happens that my expectations are being met up until now so I don't have much to complain about. My only concern right now is how the driver's hand is going through the wheel when he shifts in some cars. I will be pissed if that happens in the final game.

Also, the reflection on the steering wheel logo is of little importance even though it does look awesome, should be there and is a nice little addition. I too would trade it for the things you listed although maybe not for reverse lights. Since I play in cockpit view I look at the wheel far more than I look at the back of the car.

 

[ralph89]

Skidmark sucks!!!
And reverse light is cool!!!!
KY will own you, you noob!!!!

Just playing.

I won't argue. Too much heat on this thread. You guys can continue now.
I'm lovin GTplanet people with all this argument. Kinda entertaining if you ask me.

On topic

Who ever wins I'll agree with them

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Well I don't feel like responding to you. It's obviously just a rage outburst. You're not making much sense. Read it again with a calm mind I guess.

I do want to clarify though that I'm not happy with whatever PD delivers. I do have expectations that I want met. It happens that my expectations are being met up until now so I don't have much to complain about. My only concern right now is how the driver's hand is going through the wheel when he shifts in some cars. I will be pissed if it happens in the final game.

Also, the reflection on the steering wheel logo is of little importance even though it does look awesome, should be there and is a nice little addition. I too would trade it for the things you listed although maybe not for reverse lights. Since I play in cockpit view I look at the wheel far more than I look at the back of the car.

No, it's not. LOL I'm just saying with all these little things missing, I won't enjoy GT5 as much..

 

[Tornado]

Remember the 'hardcore' gamers whom complain about AI, lack of tire marks on tracks, painting cars because they were deprived of colouring books as children make up a tiny minority of the people whom buy GT games so.........whatever.

I don't think competent AI is something that is only noticed by "hardcore" gamers.

 

[Dravonic]

No, it's not. LOL I'm just saying with all these little things missing, I won't enjoy GT5 as much..

Not a case of internet rage? Well...

I believe you actually already made a reverse light to a game right? I claim it's hard by my own experience with Maya. Specially since this is not raytraced, automatically made by a program, light like the sort I can use in Maya. They need to come up with some neat tricks to make it look like it's lit when in fact it's brightening up some areas of different textures or something of the sort. I figure it can be done in some hours so it's not exactly improving-the-AI hard but it certainly is considerable work. Even more so if you compare it to the work by other games that are not worried if the lights look anywhere near like they do in the real cars.

By "fake light" I meant lights that don't look in the game like they look in the real cars. The light can be considered "fake" for many other reasons, much like a word can have more than one meaning. The other meanings are just not what I was saying.

By "It's serious work" I meant that making the reverse lights is not just playing around with some engine settings for a minute or two and BAM, there it is (pun partially intended). I really don't know how you misunderstood that.

Making the reverse lights is a time demanding task no matter what. You can give up work on something else and use that time to do it, but you will still spend valuable man-hours on it. Anyway, I much prefer epic car models over skid marks and reverse lights.

Also, from where I stand, there are many details that bring GT alive. Maybe not alive and kicking, but alive surely.

 

[fasj6418]

The following things have a 99% chance to happen in GT5:

The A.I will suck
No reserve lights
Weird tire screeching
No option to turn off the HUD
Pixalated trees
Absurd draft effect

With that been said, those factors won't take away the fact that i will love the game and spend 3 years on it without getting bored.

Those things could even be called "granturisms" because it's just a minor detail, but somehow they continue to overlook.

 

[Devedander]

Just as a reminder... this is from 2006... I found TOCA 2 to have very good AI as well...


Yeah and that happened on previous gen consoles, looked good and they ran plenty of cars on track...

To anyone who claims AI is just too hard to pull off or you need to drive a certain way to have a good time, it's just not true... it's not only possible, it has been done... and a long time ago. In that game getting shafted by poor AI was the exception, not the rule.

If it's not in GT5 it's either a choice to poorly represent an integral part of racing or a failure of ability. I think a lot of people really haven't ever played much outside of GT and Forza and probably a lot haven't even played Forza yet are making claims based on their need to find a reason GT has poor AI.

 

[Spagetti69]

GT's AI has become stuff of legend having belevable AI goes against the grain. It wouldn't be GT without it.
It used to be the same with damage but they finally relented. Kaz has already said that people will get fed up with damage ( probably because the AI will smash you up) and turn it off.

 

[Devedander]

GT's AI has become stuff of legend having belevable AI goes against the grain. It wouldn't be GT without it.
It used to be the same with damage but they finally relented. Kaz has already said that people will get fed up with damage ( probably because the AI will smash you up) and turn it off.

Self fulfilling prophecy?

 

[yossigab]

It's hard to catch up with this fast-running thread...

About the AI - for all those people who claim that the AI is not so important since we now have Online, don't forget that the "GT Mode" is the bread-and-butter (or "heart n' soul") of the GT series.
GT Mode is the reason why even 5 years after GT4 was release a lot of people are still playing GT4 on PS2 (even myself until I bought PS3 half a year ago).
GT Mode is base and the whole fun of GT - race, buy more cars, race, improve your car, race, etc.

For those who asked previously whether AI in GT5P are overtaking each other - then the answer is yes, but it's doing in a pre-programmed manner. What I mean is that (similar to my previous example few pages ago) if you pick up an some event in GT5P and pull over on the side (so you won't "disturb" the AI in any way) and let the AI drive and finish the race and the watch the replay:
You will see that some of them will overtake each other. Some others will fly to the sand (and with some "magic" they return immediately back without spin), and they will finish the race is some order. Now after you've watched the replay, just restart the race and do the exact same thing, and guess what??? They will do it the same as before and they will finish it in the same order. A Good AI will finish the game in different order since the AI must be programmed to do mistakes randomly, but in this case the AI is doing pre-programmed-mistakes (which is an oxymoron...) and thus the race finish in the same order.

 

[Spagetti69]

Peoplewho are only racibg online are the ones fed up of the AI.

 

[m00ndancer]

I do race offline in lots of racing games/sims and I have to say that there are things that even racing games like rFactor/RACE 07/GTR2 doesn't have.
Shift:s AI gets out of the way when you lap them I E Blue flag. Brilliant! That's something I want in GT5. What I wanted to say is that even the "hardcore" sims don't have a decent AI. GT5 needs a good AI because of the nature of the game. And I love to have AI and real drivers online at the same time filling up the grid. Doing just that in rF despite the sometimes crappy AI. If I want to race with 2-3 friends in a private room I want to be able to use the AI.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Peoplewho are only racibg online are the ones fed up of the AI.

:facepalm: AI is NOT online! Its in single player!

 

[Spagetti69]

:facepalm: AI is NOT online! Its in single player!

Yes I know

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

What's worse than the AI, in my view is that other hallmark of the GT series - bad menu design. Like almost pathologically bad menu design. I'm not sure if I could do worse if someone offered me money to try.

For every single operation which you'd expect to be able to accomplish with 1 or 2 clicks there's usually at least 5 or 6 clicks, mostly through different screens which themselves take an inordinate amount of time to load.

About the time GT4 came out I figured that, for some perverse reason, PD had to be doing this on purpose and I reckon they must have a whole department focussed on making the most user-hostile menu system the planet has ever borne witness to.

The AI at least I can ignore but no doubt the menus will have me swearing at the screen, come launch day.

 

[RAVELLRON]

quote the post....
Ai is the only problem that afflict GT series... it must be correct...

 

[Ardius]

What's worse than the AI, in my view is that other hallmark of the GT series - bad menu design. Like almost pathologically bad menu design. I'm not sure if I could do worse if someone offered me money to try.

For every single operation which you'd expect to be able to accomplish with 1 or 2 clicks there's usually at least 5 or 6 clicks, mostly through different screens which themselves take an inordinate amount of time to load.

About the time GT4 came out I figured that, for some perverse reason, PD had to be doing this on purpose and I reckon they must have a whole department focussed on making the most user-hostile menu system the planet has ever borne witness to.

The AI at least I can ignore but no doubt the menus will have me swearing at the screen, come launch day.

At least they tried to address this a little with Prologue, where you could switch cars at the event (though admittedly you still had to back all the way out and wait for it to load again).
I think sometimes they have just not followed any HCI technique at all and just tried to make it look fancy, typical designer approach, "ooh this looks good" without testing how effective it is.

 

[ismellbacon611]

guys the ring vid isnt even from the full game they have had that ai in there becuase its just another representation of the physics and now graphics ... the damage wasnt in there nore was the online mode or the customization or gt mode ... so how can we tell this isnt just from gt5p's ai because not that much from the full game is in that vid... think it through

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

That's the impression I get. Also pretty/fancier = longer to load, the other typical designer approach.

It's not even like there's much to be done it's a pretty basic interface, never mind hiring an expensive HCI consultant just ask any 5 year old who's seen a good interface before. I mean, really, this is systems design 101

example: I want to view a replay. 1st I need to exit back to main menu from wherever I am. Then I go into replays then I select the replay from the list then do I watch it? No then it says "replay loaded" then I need to click "exit" for some reason, the most likely I can work out is "cos it will annoy me" then it plays the replay then returns me to the main menu, just in case I wanted to watch it again or view another one. Then I swear at the telly. Really LOUD!!!!!

 

[Duke]

guys the ring vid isnt even from the full game they have had that ai in there becuase its just another representation of the physics and now graphics ... the damage wasnt in there nore was the online mode or the customization or gt mode ... so how can we tell this isnt just from gt5p's ai because not that much from the full game is in that vid... think it through

Hello, and welcome to GTP. However, we appreciate using good grammar like capital letters and punctuation, do please do your best in these areas. Thanks.

 

[Spagetti69]

guys the ring vid isnt even from the full game they have had that ai in there becuase its just another representation of the physics and now graphics ... the damage wasnt in there nore was the online mode or the customization or gt mode ... so how can we tell this isnt just from gt5p's ai because not that much from the full game is in that vid... think it through

I don't think it's gt5p AI because it's supposed to be a new engine I think.

 

[Dravonic]

Just as a reminder... this is from 2006... I found TOCA 2 to have very good AI as well...

*vid*

Yeah and that happened on previous gen consoles, looked good and they ran plenty of cars on track...

To anyone who claims AI is just too hard to pull off or you need to drive a certain way to have a good time, it's just not true... it's not only possible, it has been done... and a long time ago. In that game getting shafted by poor AI was the exception, not the rule.

If it's not in GT5 it's either a choice to poorly represent an integral part of racing or a failure of ability. I think a lot of people really haven't ever played much outside of GT and Forza and probably a lot haven't even played Forza yet are making claims based on their need to find a reason GT has poor AI.

Of course good AI can be made. I can't know how good TOCA's is without playing it but I don't think anyone was trying to say that GT's AI is the best one around.

Good AI is hard to do, as you pointed out it doesn't mean it can't be done, but you still need a team dedicated to it to get it right. Unfortunately Kazunori appears not to care enough about it to hire some new guys or transfer people from another area to the AI. It's not like PD are a bunch of lazy incompetents, like some appear to be saying, because they can't get it right though. It just appears that AI is not the focus of the game.

And about having to drive in a certain way to enjoy the AI, I was referring to GT only. Due to it's AI limitations, if you don't drive properly you'll have problems with it but that doesn't necessarily apply to other games. In Shift for example, you need to drive like you're in a demolition derby because if you try to drive properly the AI will take you out regularly. In a game with good AI like TOCA, it probably doesn't matter how you drive.

 

[m00ndancer]

... In Shift for example, you need to drive like you're in a demolition derby because if you try to drive properly the AI will take you out regularly. In a game with good AI like TOCA, it probably doesn't matter how you drive.

Not on PC. Since it's moddable (is that a word?) you can have a very well-behaved AI. The lastest mod does just that and removes the kamikaze AI.