What Aids are cheating?

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ASR/ESP was fitted to my old VW Passat TDI & numerous VW's.
ESP is a sophisticated system that automatically senses any tendency for the car to slide. Should this situation occur, ESP reacts by applying the brakes to one, two, three or all four wheels and adjusts the engine?s power. In this way, it is possible that a skid is corrected even before the driver is aware that one has started. This can be useful if a tendency to understeer or oversteer develops in a bend. In such circumstances, ESP can help prevent the car skidding or spinning off the road and is particularly helpful in wet or icy conditions.
 
Aids aren't cheating if the online room allows them. In fact, most aids will make you slower.

Yup, this. By using Driving Aids, most drivers are really only cheating themselves in the long run, because most cars will be faster if people turn them off, once they get to know how to drive with them off.

ABS...as someone mentioned, all modern cars have this. The Ai certainly has it on. Turning ABS off actually makes cars harder to drive, not easier.

TCS...only some of the top horsepower cars (full racing cars with hundreds of horsepower) can possibly become quicker with TCS, assuming the driver can't control such a car without TCS, that is. In most other weaker cars, TCS will actually slow the driver down because the car won't have as much maneuverability with TCS on. My guess is that with full-blown hp cars, the Ai certainly has TCS on; correct me if I'm wrong.

ASM. Obvious. No need to explain!

Skid Recovery. I personally haven't played around with this yet, but others who have certainly have covered this well.

I'm forgetting the other Aids, if there are any others, I'm not sure.

But each to thier own, Only those "purist" who play for perfection imply they are "cheats" but ignore them as they seem to think everyone else should play the way they do. Hobscotch and a few lines of censored words to them !

"Purists" not purist. :odd: The way you've used that word, it should be plurally designated, not in the singular form.

I'm a "purist", as you call it. I certainly play towards perfection (not that I always attain perfection). Yet I don't see them as cheats, for all the reasons I just stated.

It's spelled "hopscotch", by the way. :lol:
 
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Aids aren't cheating... They are there so that everyone, even the inexperienced gamers can play the game.
More experienced players don't use aids (for more realistic gameplay).
And even experienced players have ABS set to 1. It's almost impossible to brake properly in this game without ABS set to off...
 
Thanks for the replies. The reason for the original threaed is that I was accused of cheating for not turning TCS off the other night.
I was online. The room wasnt labled as all Aides off or anything. The Host was regulating BHP settings (quite well I might add).

The cars are changing regularly. Im just playing for XP and a few "chips" so forget to turn off TCS every car change. Infact I had had some beers and wasnt at my best so I figure TCS might help sometimes so dont bother to turn it off.

I win a couple of races and someone else kicks up a fuss about me using TCS. So I admit that "yes" im using it and I get called a cheat and booted from the room!

Seems like Sour grapes to me, so just wondered what you thought?

Typical GT5 online behaviour.

I got kicked the other day by some french guys for not having ABS...as if that would have suddenly improved my lap times drastically :rolleyes:

I'm more inclined to believe it was an excuse to get rid of the foreigner as I have witnessed it happen very frequently.
 
TCS and ASM* aren't cheat since they are installed in real cars.
But Skid Recovery Force and Active Steering are in-game aids.

I did a F1 race yesterday where both the other two that was in the game was using all aids possible as well as automatic...
 
Aids aren't cheating if the online room allows them. In fact, most aids will make you slower. Some will make you a lot slower. A bad player with aids on may be faster than a bad player with aids off, but a good player with aids on is sometimes slower than a good player with aids off... whereas great players are usually much faster with all the aids off. (Except, sometimes, ABS)

But if by "cheating", people mean "unrealistic", the only truly unrealistic aid is "Skid Recovery Force", which doesn't act as an in-car aid, but tweaks the car's grip when you lose control.

Leave what aids on you need to get used to the car, but take them away gradually as you build up in skill and confidence, and you'll find that you can go much faster. Most of us race with nothing more than TCS and ABS at 1, if the car needs it... but even for many of the supercars, driving with TCS at 0 is possible with enough practice.

I would add the driving line as one of the most unrealistic aids as well and this is used by a lot of good to great drivers.
 
also, bmw's have a system like skid recovery force its called asm all bmw's nowadays have it and yes if you turn it off its quicker in the twistys but less stable it increases the dampers on the opposite side when cornering and if you drift a little the revs drop

What BMW has is called DSC (Dynamic Stability Control), which is basically the same thing as ESP or ASM as its called in GT5.
Also the DSC does not "increase the dampers", all it does is brake individual wheels or reduce throttle amount so the car's motion matches the drivers input.

The Active Steering aid in GT5 is avaliable in real life in BMW's equipped with active steering. It can countersteer automatically if the car starts to skid, but as for how much it can steer or how similar to GT5 it is then I don't know.
 
You've all forgotten to mention the unselectable assistance of gear shift blinking = time to brake.

Have to admit it's handy when there are no easy braking references though... 👍
 
I don't understand how some of you say "It just ruins the fun for them" How do you know what ruins the fun for me?
I'm having a blast, I'm not patient enough to want to learn every corner of every track. My A.D.H.D won't allow it.

Play the game how ever you want, you paid your $60, why care what some of these elitist, bourgeois over acheviver's think? Enjoy the game you paid your money for the way you want.
 
You've all forgotten to mention the unselectable assistance of gear shift blinking = time to brake.

Have to admit it's handy when there are no easy braking references though... 👍

Actually, this feature is probably good for new players who have no clue where braking zones start, but once you get good, you may find yourself disobeying or even ignoring it.

There are times where if you ignore it and brake later than it says, you'll get a better lap time. There are times when it tells us to brake where brakes may not be needed at all.

This goes for the gear shift indicator as well. I'm not sure about GT5 yet, as I'm in the habit of ignoring this feature altogether, but in GT4 it was often suggesting a gear I would normally never use.
 
Actually, this feature is probably good for new players who have no clue where braking zones start, but once you get good, you may find yourself disobeying or even ignoring it.

There are times where if you ignore it and brake later than it says, you'll get a better lap time. There are times when it tells us to brake where brakes may not be needed at all.

This goes for the gear shift indicator as well. I'm not sure about GT5 yet, as I'm in the habit of ignoring this feature altogether, but in GT4 it was often suggesting a gear I would normally never use.

I've found that this feature helps me alot with my late braking. Though it seems that I'm getting better at gauging the distance and speed to where I can keep a good speed around the corner... Eats up my tires like monster tho..
 
People need to stop being defensive about the word "cheating" here, it's not being used in the way you think. All we mean by cheating is that it defies what we class as a simulation of a real-world driving aid, not that using aids makes you a cheat.

I'm a little disappointed. I've skimmed over the replies and everybody seems to have overlooked another completely unrealistic aid: the race line.

I forgot about the race line simply because I was thinking of aids which affect the car directly.
 
None, and anyone to say they are, are just pretty big headed.

Yeah, race cars have none of them, and a lot of super/sports cars have some of them, but in the end, whichever you find most fun to use, is all that matters.
 
i don't think any of them are "cheating" since PD put them in there to use, but I do think that Skid Recovery Force is pretty cheap since it is basicly just magical grip and not a function of the car.

I tend to not use any except ABS 1, and a minimal amount of traction control depending on the car. The only reason being I don't have a wheel and pedals. With pedals and more control over partial throttle and brake inputs I would try my best to not use any aids at all.

I guess this makes me a purist, but not out of any sort of elitism. i just want to keep up the delusion that i could actually be a race car driver and how can i keep up that delusion using the aids. ;)
 
I've found that this feature helps me alot with my late braking. Though it seems that I'm getting better at gauging the distance and speed to where I can keep a good speed around the corner... Eats up my tires like monster tho..

Mostly I ignore the brake/gear indicator in GT5, I'm in the habit of not even seeing it most of the time. The few times I've noticed it, I'm usually not following its instructions.

So far as percentages go, I'm not sure about GT5 yet, but in GT4 it was off maybe 80 to 90% with the way I drove.
 
I'm a little disappointed. I've skimmed over the replies and everybody seems to have overlooked another completely unrealistic aid: the race line. Yes, there's an ideal race line around tracks, and ideal speeds and braking points. What's unrealistic about the line is that it's magically drawn onto the track to guide you. I've watched a lot of races from many different motorsports from around the world on lots of different tracks, and I've never seen a magic blue/red line painted around the track to assist the drivers and let them know where to brake.

Having and learning an ideal race line is realistic, but having it magically painted for you is not. Traction control exists in reality, even if not on all cars, anti-lock brakes exists in reality, even if not on all cars, but magic blue/red race lines do not exist in reality.

I guess you were skimming rather quickly, because I pointed that out above your post. :dunce:
 
The only aid that has the potential to unbalance the race, is Skid Recovery Force. You could have people unaware of the little extra grip that it provides. Turning the others off, is simply imposing your will on others.
 
SRF is the equivalent of standard physics in Prologue and is, IMO, a sort of 'cheat' as it makes the car significantly easier to drive and allows much quicker lap time for the same standard of driving... TC and ASM may help you be more consistent, but as they slow the car down I'd have no issues with others using them in a lobby.
 
skid recovery defiantly makes me faster around the track! Put the 787B around the high speed ring, and didn't have to brake much, or feather the throttle around the tighter corners
 
I'm a little disappointed. I've skimmed over the replies and everybody seems to have overlooked another completely unrealistic aid: the race line. Yes, there's an ideal race line around tracks, and ideal speeds and braking points. What's unrealistic about the line is that it's magically drawn onto the track to guide you. I've watched a lot of races from many different motorsports from around the world on lots of different tracks, and I've never seen a magic blue/red line painted around the track to assist the drivers and let them know where to brake.

Having and learning an ideal race line is realistic, but having it magically painted for you is not. Traction control exists in reality, even if not on all cars, anti-lock brakes exists in reality, even if not on all cars, but magic blue/red race lines do not exist in reality.
the race line is great for learning a new track but once you have got the basic layout in your head the driving line slows you down because you end up just following it and not pushing to shave seconds off lap times, you will never be quick using the painted line. The activ steering thing is just plain cheating, this is a sim not need for speed!!!
 
oh, i didn't even mention the driving line. I hate the driving line. it makes the game look childish and totally breaks the immersion. Its actually kind of a pet peeve of mine, when i see someone using the driving line in a video review or something i automatically throw out their option. lol. I wouldn't call it a cheat since from what i can tell its no help, but that just shows how silly it is. Most of the tracks have the line rubbered in which is more helpful and better looking.
 
I pretty much just skimmed the whole thread, but I think everyone has missed the most important point; it is all completely moot because of how PD implements these "driving aids" in a blanket fashion across the entire game.

I won't dwell on skid recovery, driving line, or active steering. Except for the latter in rare cases, these are obviously beginner level aids.

However, ABS, TCS, and ASM are actual physical systems found on some cars. Not only that, but these systems vary widely from car to car. If there were to be any accuracy in the game at all concerning them, they would be found in the tuning shop along with ECM chips and the like, but only on cars that have them IRL.

As it is now, they are nothing more than global "difficulty sliders", and unfortunately it's up to the player or room host to decide (in a strange way) how difficult they want the game to be. To do it in a way that vaguely resembles real life, you need a very deep knowledge of cars. I personally try to set up each car as close to real life as possible, because I enjoy the thrill of driving real cars, complete with their flaws. It's what separates them from each other and makes them each unique.

Here's an example: I have a '69 Camaro in the game that has been modded slightly. I don't have a chip in it because electronic control didn't exist on these cars in 1969. And neither did TCS, ASM, or ABS. The brakes on it IRL were 4-wheel drums, and I've actually driven some of these cars that couldn't lock the brakes up if you stood on the pedal both feet and hands. Yet in the game, I do use ABS = 1, because the braking and weight distribution in GT5 is so out of whack. So I use this "aid" as a correction for flawed physics in this case.

Would I use TCS on a ZR1? Sure, occasionally. It's a physical system installed on the real car, and it's a major contributor to how that car handles. That car also comes equipped with an automatic electromagnetic suspension system which isn't to be found anywhere in GT5...but would using the generic ASM "aid" simulate that accurately? I doubt it.

So it really comes down to the fact that these settings aren't anything more than different ways of setting the game's difficulty, and it's up to you to decide which ones to use for any given car at any given time. Personally, I would much rather prefer that they were done properly as actual systems, and that we just had a simple slider to change the game's AI difficulty...but then again there is a lot I would have done differently. :)

The irony is that to get the most realistic and challenging behavior out of GT5, you have to really know cars and like the challenge; and most of those people probably spend more time on much better PC-based sims in the first place. Yet the majority of casual console gamers that aren't car experts are stuck with this baffling implementation of driver aids to try and figure out.

Ahhh... gotta love some of the stuff PD chose to do. :)
 
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One note: weight distribution isn't the issue... it's braking force distribution that is. I think you'll want ABS off and brake force at 1/0 to replicate your Camaro's real life braking...

What BMW has is called DSC (Dynamic Stability Control), which is basically the same thing as ESP or ASM as its called in GT5.
Also the DSC does not "increase the dampers", all it does is brake individual wheels or reduce throttle amount so the car's motion matches the drivers input.

The Active Steering aid in GT5 is avaliable in real life in BMW's equipped with active steering. It can countersteer automatically if the car starts to skid, but as for how much it can steer or how similar to GT5 it is then I don't know.

BMW's suite of controls is most sophisticated in the X6. They have variable anti-roll bar control, damper control, fully electronic LSD control to trim cornering lines (instead of just braking).

However... BMW's variable ratio steering, though, does not, to my knowledge countersteer for you.
 
One note: weight distribution isn't the issue... it's braking force distribution that is. I think you'll want ABS off and brake force at 1/0 to replicate your Camaro's real life braking...



BMW's suite of controls is most sophisticated in the X6. They have variable anti-roll bar control, damper control, fully electronic LSD control to trim cornering lines (instead of just braking).

However... BMW's variable ratio steering, though, does not, to my knowledge countersteer for you.

That makes sense, but are the anti-roll bar control and damper control able to adjust the vehicles handling while cornering?
I always thought that the main idea of the anti-roll bar control is to stiffen the ARB's to reduce body roll, but does it have the ability to adjust the front and rear stiffness during a turn?
Same for the damper control, I thought it just stiffens up a certain percentage when you press the Sport button, but is it able to individually adjust front and rear damping to alter the handling?

As for the active steering, from what I've been reading online it says that it is able to apply a little amount of countersteer during braking or when there is crosswind to keep the car stable.
 
One note: weight distribution isn't the issue... it's braking force distribution that is. I think you'll want ABS off and brake force at 1/0 to replicate your Camaro's real life braking...

I didn't mean static weight distribution. I was referring to how weight shifts during braking, which is just strange in most GT5 cars IMHO. My bad. :)

I've been around the block a few times on the brake settings for that car, but can't remember where I ended up. I'll try your suggestion though if I'm not already using those values.
 
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