What do you make of Kaz's answer regarding GT5s sound

[Tornado]

Clean your ears out.

I don't think any amount of Q-Tips for your ears or money thrown at your home theater system is going to take that patented Chevrolet S10 Blazer sound:




And make it sound like it is actually a high performance V8 engine.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Maybe JeMCG talk about the enveloping sound field + decibel pressure ( I don't know the right word for it ) I often listen to trance music, at low volume 40dB, it lacks punch, sounds flat and lifeless, but pump the volume to 60dB or more, then we are talking business here, punchy mid and shaking low, fuller high, the sound felt alive and "powerful".

I've watched live racing through my AVR a couple of times, the sounds from higher decibel does make it a lot better than the tiny tv speakers , but I won't crank it up all the time, I love my hearing better

In GT5 case, the sound source is not that "sexy" compared to other games like Forza or NFS MW, I guess PD needs to have a middle ground here, realistic but also engaging.

 

[Skuh]

^^^^
Sounds like a lawnmower recorded and played through a ripped speaker. Awful. No Gurgle or anything. Poor show.

 

[Samus]

Maybe JeMCG talk about the enveloping sound field + decibel pressure ( I don't know the right word for it ) I often listen to trance music, at low volume 40dB, it lacks punch, sounds flat and lifeless, but pump the volume to 60dB or more, then we are talking business here, punchy mid and shaking low, fuller high, the sound felt alive and "powerful".

I've watched live racing through my AVR a couple of times, the sounds from higher decibel does make it a lot better than the tiny tv speakers , but I won't crank it up all the time, I love my hearing better

In GT5 case, the sound source is not that "sexy" compared to other games like Forza or NFS MW, I guess PD needs to have a middle ground here, realistic but also engaging.

Of course in general the louder something is the better it sounds but to say that in car audio would need to be loud enough to require earplugs is quite ridiculous. I've been to rock shows and needed earplugs but if I listen to a rock CD at home it only need to be comfortably loud to get the full sound experience.

I mean like Scaff says that'd be like going to the cinema/theatre to watch a blockbuster film and need the sound to be so loud you need earplugs for everything to sound realistic. It's a quite ridiculous notion, anything that is loud enough to make your neighbours complain is loud enough to get the full experience of a sound sample.

 

[Scaff]

Maybe JeMCG talk about the enveloping sound field + decibel pressure ( I don't know the right word for it ) I often listen to trance music, at low volume 40dB, it lacks punch, sounds flat and lifeless, but pump the volume to 60dB or more, then we are talking business here, punchy mid and shaking low, fuller high, the sound felt alive and "powerful".

I've watched live racing through my AVR a couple of times, the sounds from higher decibel does make it a lot better than the tiny tv speakers , but I won't crank it up all the time, I love my hearing better

In GT5 case, the sound source is not that "sexy" compared to other games like Forza or NFS MW, I guess PD needs to have a middle ground here, realistic but also engaging.

All of which would be a valid point if turning the volume on GT5 up made that difference, but it doesn't.

The LFE on my sub will move my furniture, and with every other racing title in my collection you get a good frequency spread, GT5 however is seriously missing out across the dynamic range and particularly in the lower end.

As I mentioned, if this were a valid point then it would apply to all recorded material, that it doesn't only leaves one logical conclusion, the source material is at issue.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think any amount of Q-Tips for your ears or money thrown at your home theater system is going to take that patented Chevrolet S10 Blazer sound:




And make it sound like it is actually a high performance V8 engine.

I turned up my tv and it sounded just like a V8!!! Problem solved

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Of course in general the louder something is the better it sounds but to say that in car audio would need to be loud enough to require earplugs is quite ridiculous. I've been to rock shows and needed earplugs but if I listen to a rock CD at home it only need to be comfortably loud to get the full sound experience.

I mean like Scaff says that'd be like going to the cinema/theatre to watch a blockbuster film and need the sound to be so loud you need earplugs for everything to sound realistic. It's a quite ridiculous notion, anything that is loud enough to make your neighbours complain is loud enough to get the full experience of a sound sample.

That might be your preference in listening a sound source, and every person have different preferences of how loud they like to hear something. These are just examples of my preferences :

Certain songs or musics that I listened at home through my AVR ( it has -80dB to +3dB volume adjustment and another +10dB boost to each speaker ), I have it at -50 to -30dB for songs with vocal as I like the vocal sounds like if I have the singer sang in front of me. That would be comfortable for me to listen, as I dislike inaccurate voice from a singer ( volume included ). Instrumental music could get louder, classical and electronic mainly - I like to hear those instrument like I was there in person.

When I play FPS game like Bad Company 2, I set it to Home Cinema/War Tapes mode, I always set the volume to at least -30 to -20dB - very loud, gun fire sounds like a real one, explosion felt like real explosion, I can't get enough of it, I am gun whore . BC2 has one of the best sound reproduction and mixing in games, even at extreme volume - I tried it at -10dB once and fired my G3 rifle, by God it's so **** awesome.

When I play GT5, I usually play it at -35 to -25dB with Living Room setting and 5.1 DTS. I can feel the engine deep bass rumble when idle and low rpm, then high rpm pitch quite enveloping, but it does get tiresome after an hour or so, the same thing happens when I play NFS game, the engine rackets just too coarse to my liking ( not enough fidelity or monotonous ?)

So I think a sound is loud enough if it can replace the original source in loudness, a singer voice singing at a volume as if the speakers are where the singer is standing at that very moment. A gun fire from a feet away sounds like a real gun fired a few feet away. And car sounds as loud as if I am sitting in it and driving.

 

[JEMcG]

Are you actually serious?

Do you even have the first clue about audio recording and production? It would certainly seem not.

If what you are claiming about were even remotely correct then nothing we listen to from a musical or film perspective would sound even remotely close to the real thing.

Oddly enough music and film manages quite well in these regards, as do countless other racing titles around, many of which manage to get sounds far closer to reality than the GT series does.

You post smacks of both a limited knowledge in this area and of clutching at straws.

Oh and for the record my home cinema, hi-fi and guitar amps are all capable of db levels that will damage hearing, however getting close to that is not a requirement for accurate sound recreation. What the BBC and ITV manage more than well enough in live broadcasts of the F1, BTCC, WTCC etc. according to you can't be done with pre-recorded and (apparently) post-produced sounds in a game?

I don't think so.

Yes I do know about AV as it is part of my profession.

No the BBC or ITV can't match GT5 for sound quality even at their best broadcast quality, even if you were putting it though the best amp in the world you couldn't make up for the loss in quality. One because it wasn't there in the fist place and two because they just can't transmit at the same quality that is available in GT5. Remember that the sound is already there for you in GT5 and it's just up to how much you want to spend on your equipment.

Totally different kettle of fish comparing movies and guitar to engines. An engine is naturally loud to the point of detriment to our hearing, whereas a movie and guitar are made to please our senses.

I find your comment about me clutching at straws and having a limited knowledge slightly offensive. The only comforting factor being that no one will ever have complete knowledge in anything, there is always something to learn.

I respect your opinion though.

 

[JEMcG]

I turned up my tv and it sounded just like a V8!!! Problem solved

lol someone gets it!

 

[Famine]

Crazy. Kaz IS CRAZY. 👎

Kaz, You are either lying , or you have an incredibly strange disease in your ears, or you haven't played the game at all...

Or you've assumed that the English translation of his words reflects his original meaning so completely as to form a direct statement - which isn't sensible - and used this as the basis to insult the guy...

 

[JEMcG]

There was a translator present - just not Translator-san (who I'm told has broken his ankle - get well soon Translator-san!) - and Yamauchi rarely speaks in English at all, let alone full interviews.

However, invoking "lost in translation", I kind of understand what he's getting at, even if I don't necessarily agree.


"Sound" is a complex field - it's not as simple as recording a noise and playing it back. A really basic example is how you sound differently on a tape recorder than you do in your head. While I'm sure that how they record sounds isn't necessarily how I'd do it (doing it on a dyno is sensible - loading the engine with no road noise), the simple fact is that you will not be able to tell the difference on an equaliser between the real car and the GT5 one. It'll be the same pitch (frequency) spectrum at, if you choose, the same volume. This is what I suspect Kazunori means by "too real" - 1:1 on the equaliser.

This isn't the problem with GT5's sounds. The problem is what he refers to as "sexier" sounds - or what musicians will know as timbre. If you play two musical instruments at the same pitch and same volume an equaliser will show no difference - but they're different, aren't they? You know how you can tell between a synthesiser version of an instrument and a real instrument - or a human voice and autotune? This is due to timbre - timbre is what gives "sexiness" to sound. You can even tell between two identical instruments played entirely in synch with each other due to timbre...

What constitutes timbre is tough to pin down - it's essentially every characteristic of a sound that isn't the frequency or volume It's often referred to as "sound colour" and you'll hear terms bandied about like ADSR (attack [the start of a note], decay [normalisation from the attack to the sustain], sustain [the intended note], release [return to zero]), but it's really tough to explain and even tougher to compress and shove onto a CD/DVD/BD, uncompress, dynamically simulate and allow space for a game.

What many games do to substitute for timbre is make it louder and add more bass - because we associate noise, particularly bassy noise, with feeling. If you can feel the noise move through you it feels more "real" (and at real race tracks, sound hits you like a wall). Shoved through a set of TV speakers, it sounds "better" than the quieter and more accurate (in terms of the equaliser) note. GT games don't do this (with the exception of GTHD) and so, through TV speakers, they sound like ass because there is neither real feeling nor fake feeling - just the frequencies and volume. They sound better if you have speakers with better range and quicker reactions or if you have a good amp to dig the sounds out (on the pair of monitor speakers I usually use for gaming, GT5 sounds fine, if a little vague sometimes. Good enough at least that my wife can hear I'm driving a V8, three walls and a floor away) but the lack of timbre or a substitute for it prevents the realism.

There's certainly more they could do. Sound recording needs to be primarily in the driver's seat for cockpit, in the engine for nosecam, two feet behind and four feet above the car for coptercam (though winding in some essence of the other two for each will help add character). It needs to be pushed through a spectrometer rather than an equaliser before being passed as satisfactory. It needs to be optimised for different settings - the ghacky 2W TV speakers most people play through, a stereo system, a basic surround system (2.1), a middle surround system (5.1), a geeky surround system (7.1) and a full cinema system (what's this up to now? 14.2?).

Or they could make it louder and add bass.


Take "real" as "faithful frequency and amplitude reproduction" and take "sexier" as "better timbre or bassier/noisier" and the response makes sense.

👍

Bang on.

 

[Scaff]

Yes I do know about AV as it is part of my profession.

Please expand.

I sold and installed hi-fi and home cinema for a number of years and have owned systems since I was a teenager (so over 25 years now).

No the BBC or ITV can't match GT5 for sound quality even at their best broadcast quality, even if you were putting it though the best amp in the world you couldn't make up for the loss in quality. One because it wasn't there in the fist place and two because they just can't transmit at the same quality that is available in GT5. Remember that the sound is already there for you in GT5 and it's just up to how much you want to spend on your equipment.

No amount of money spent on a system is going to make up for the fact that GT5's audio samples for certain cars are simply wrong (as in they are clearly not recorded from the car/engine in question - two such example were posted in this very thread). Nor will it make up for the almost total lack of post-production contained within the GT5 audio sample, which rob them of any form of character.

GT5's LPCM audio sample may be lossless and of a massive bit-rate (of that no doubt exists) but if they are not from the correct source and/or of poor production then its for nothing.

Bit-rate and compression (or lack of it) is worthless if the source is not up to scratch,, and its for that reason that the BBC's F1 footage sounds better than anything GT5 can currently offer.

Totally different kettle of fish comparing movies and guitar to engines. An engine is naturally loud to the point of detriment to our hearing, whereas a movie and guitar are made to please our senses.

Yet a recording of an engine is no different to the recording of a guitar or gunfire in a films, etc (or for that matter a car in a film).

Fail to capture it correctly and/or produce it correctly and it will not represent the source accurately.

I find your comment about me clutching at straws and having a limited knowledge slightly offensive. The only comforting factor being that no one will ever have complete knowledge in anything, there is always something to learn.

I respect your opinion though.

Then maybe you should consider that before throwing out blanket insults yourself.

However I have to be perfectly honest in saying that nothing at all that you have said in these posts explains why GT5's audio samples fail to do what they should, which is provide as accurate a recreation of the source sounds as they can. As for limited knowledge, well the comments you have made on the topic to date unfortunately indicate just that.

You can bang on about equipment and volume levels all you like, if you point was accurate then it would apply to all recorded sources and it doesn't.

lol someone gets it!

Actually I think you will find that's sarcasm.

👍

Bang on.

Odd because the issues Famine has pointed out are the exact same ones that I have and still will not be resolved by better equipment and/or more volume.

 

[JEMcG]

Please expand.

I sold and installed hi-fi and home cinema for a number of years and have owned systems since I was a teenager (so over 25 years now).




No amount of money spent on a system is going to make up for the fact that GT5's audio samples for certain cars are simply wrong (as in they are clearly not recorded from the car/engine in question - two such example were posted in this very thread). Nor will it make up for the almost total lack of post-production contained within the GT5 audio sample, which rob them of any form of character.

GT5's LPCM audio sample may be lossless and of a massive bit-rate (of that no doubt exists) but if they are not from the correct source and/or of poor production then its for nothing.

Bit-rate and compression (or lack of it) is worthless if the source is not up to scratch,, and its for that reason that the BBC's F1 footage sounds better than anything GT5 can currently offer.




Yet a recording of an engine is no different to the recording of a guitar or gunfire in a films, etc (or for that matter a car in a film).

Fail to capture it correctly and/or produce it correctly and it will not represent the source accurately.




Then maybe you should consider that before throwing out blanket insults yourself.

However I have to be perfectly honest in saying that nothing at all that you have said in these posts explains why GT5's audio samples fail to do what they should, which is provide as accurate a recreation of the source sounds as they can. As for limited knowledge, well the comments you have made on the topic to date unfortunately indicate just that.

You can bang on about equipment and volume levels all you like, if you point was accurate then it would apply to all recorded sources and it doesn't.




Actually I think you will find that's sarcasm.




Odd because the issues Famine has pointed out are the exact same ones that I have and still will not be resolved by better equipment and/or more volume.

I meant that I steal TV's and hifi's. And I like Famine better than you.

 

[Lock2Lock]

In a way what Kaz said could be true. If you record in certain ways you pick up many different disciples. But still on quite a few cars the sound does seem copy and paste. Mainly the cars you put any exhaust mods on. Hints the reason i use stock exhaust on pretty much everything.

 

[Scaff]

I meant that I steal TV's and hifi's. And I like Famine better than you.

Serious question.

Do you wish to remain a member here?

If you continue posting with no regard to the AUP your membership will come to an end.

Not a discussion point.

 

[thelvynau]

In a way what Kaz said could be true. If you record in certain ways you pick up many different disciples. But still on quite a few cars the sound does seem copy and paste. Mainly the cars you put any exhaust mods on. Hints the reason i use stock exhaust on pretty much everything.

I guess they would need to copy and paste due to time restraints I mean its over 1000 cars it would take a while to record them all.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I guess they would need to copy and paste due to time restraints I mean its over 1000 cars it would take a while to record them all.

Yes it would in all honesty and i am not making excuses for PD but more than 5 years with the amount of employees.

There are great sounding cars in the game.
Like last night I did a comparison between the R33 premium. Try this. Buy it bone stock add the semi-titanium racing exhaust (2nd exhaust) slowly rev it up in 3rd person camera.
Compare it to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co-OOAuBVgo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sounds the closest to it pretty much exact. Minus the transmission and blow off valve and i believe that is it.

One thing I have discovered like most people. Pretty much on most cars you can just forget about the racing exhaust (the 3rd one) because it doesn't sound correct on most of them.

The other car in the game that sounds identical to the real life car (or parts added) is the gran-turismo 350z rs. Its true name that was shortened in the final version of the game and its full name was in GT5 Proluge. Its true name was Amuze/Opera Performance Gran Turismo 350z RD. Leave it stock and tell me to my face that doesn't sound like the real thing.

I think the problem was time. But Kaz has admitted flaws with the game. I am not going to say the sounds are not great on some if not half of the cars. But at least he is going to work on them.

Like i said before I respect others opinions and this is mine. But look at that video above with the R33 and try that. You might be surprised

 

[thelvynau]

Yes it would in all honesty and i am not making excuses for PD but more than 5 years with the amount of employees.

There are great sounding cars in the game.
Like last night I did a comparison between the R33 premium. Try this. Buy it bone stock add the semi-titanium racing exhaust (2nd exhaust) slowly rev it up in 3rd person camera.
Compare it to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co-OOAuBVgo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sounds the closest to it pretty much exact. Minus the transmission and blow off valve and i believe that is it.

One thing I have discovered like most people. Pretty much on most cars you can just forget about the racing exhaust (the 3rd one) because it doesn't sound correct on most of them.

The other car in the game that sounds identical to the real life car (or parts added) is the gran-turismo 350z rs. Its true name that was shortened in the final version of the game and its full name was in GT5 Proluge. Its true name was Amuze/Opera Performance Gran Turismo 350z RD. Leave it stock and tell me to my face that doesn't sound like the real thing.

I think the problem was time. But Kaz has admitted flaws with the game. I am not going to say the sounds are not great on some if not half of the cars. But at least he is going to work on them.

Like i said before I respect others opinions and this is mine. But look at that video above with the R33 and try that. You might be surprised

I guess its reasonable to say pd couldnt record every single vehicle and develop the game in a reasonable amount of time perhaps they tried with what they had.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I guess its reasonable to say pd couldnt record every single vehicle and develop the game in a reasonable amount of time perhaps they tried with what they had.

I mean one thing I must say. But i am not a gaming programmer so i don't know what is best but here's my idea.

Ok when you make one of these games you have to get a license for the the cars you put in right?

Have the company of the car send a sound recording of it? If there's a way to do it.

Only other way I think is to have something that can hook up to each car that will record RPM activity and exhaust and engine noise at those RPMs. Imagine it being that correct. But it would take forever. Which honestly if everything would be that accurate it would be worth the wait to me for them to get every car they put into the game done like that.

 

[thelvynau]

I mean one thing I must say. But i am not a gaming programmer so i don't know what is best but here's my idea.

Ok when you make one of these games you have to get a license for the the cars you put in right?

Have the company of the car send a sound recording of it? If there's a way to do it.

Only other way I think is to have something that can hook up to each car that will record RPM activity and exhaust and engine noise at those RPMs. Imagine it being that correct. But it would take forever. Which honestly if everything would be that accurate it would be worth the wait to me for them to get every car they put into the game done like that.

Thats a good idea so they would be paying not only for the image and 3d model but receive the sound as part of the package.

 

[Vegard]

What do I make of Kaz's answer regarding GT5s sound?

He actually admits there's a problem 👍
It's too easy to blame it on one single aspect though.
There are multiple issues with the sound.
His comment about the sound being "too good" is just a PR stunt, or a matter of "lost in translation".

The good news is: He acknowledges the fact that the sound needs a comprehensive overhaul.
This, combined with the major upgrade of the 2.09 "grand unified theory of GT-physics" fills me with optimism (they're still doing major development in key areas on a 2 year old game!).

Fingers crossed

 

[crazy206]

I don't want to cause havoc, but i think that its not the actual sound but a synthesized version of the cars real life sound... because you can hold a RPM note at 5000 then hover around 3000 or 7000 for however long you want... ill further explain what i'm talking about when i get home from school ^-^

 

[Samus]

If you're talking about the HSV I agree, it sounds a lot better than the old version and clsoer to the real thing but it's still far too synthetic sounding.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

I think by 'too real' Kaz means that the sounds of the cars are too clean. Now many cars in GT5 obviously use synthesised sounds rather than digitised real sounds but some, like the 787B or now the HSV sound similar to their real life counterparts but are somewhat dull and generic. After seeing the pictures of PD recording sounds using a mic attached to the exhaust pipe of a car, I think that the sounds are just based on the raw sound coming out of the exhaust pipes, not taking into account the resonance of the exhaust pipe or the vibrations of other parts of the car which produce a sound. I think that this is the main problem of many of GT's sounds.

I may be talking absolute nonsense though and stand to be corrected.

 

[AmplifiedNL]

Editing the sound can even take the dull engine sounds a good raw go for its money, listen up to my engine sound edit for the interior sound :

http://soundcloud.com/amplifiednl/gt5-f40-interior-sound

Notice how the clean one sounds totally fizzy and stuff, like there is only treble lol?.
I tried to recreate some youtube incar video sound here, and get some more exciting intake growl out of it. The equalizing in this game is just totally crap sorry to say. The engine growl is actually there, hidden tho. Edit came out nicely.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Editing the sound can even take the dull engine sounds a good raw go for its money, listen up to my engine sound edit for the interior sound :

http://soundcloud.com/amplifiednl/gt5-f40-interior-sound

Notice how the clean one sounds totally fizzy and stuff, like there is only treble lol?.
I tried to recreate some youtube incar video sound here, and get some more exciting intake growl out of it. The equalizing in this game is just totally crap sorry to say. The engine growl is actually there, hidden tho. Edit came out nicely.

That's why i have spent about 5 hours total tuning my 5.1 surround soundsystem. I get the engine growl and and many other things too.

 

[AmplifiedNL]

Another one, the Nissan R35 this round :

http://soundcloud.com/amplifiednl/gt5-r35-sound

This was recorded in the car, while the first original one sounds like the microphone is under the hood or something, my edit is what gt5 should and CAN easily sound like with post proccesing of the sound. It actually sounds like you are in the car as you can also hear from the horn when i beep it .

 

[Racin510s]

What do I make of Kaz's answer regarding GT5s sound?

He actually admits there's a problem 👍
It's too easy to blame it on one single aspect though.
There are multiple issues with the sound.
His comment about the sound being "too good" is just a PR stunt, or a matter of "lost in translation".

The good news is: He acknowledges the fact that the sound needs a comprehensive overhaul.
This, combined with the major upgrade of the 2.09 "grand unified theory of GT-physics" fills me with optimism (they're still doing major development in key areas on a 2 year old game!).

Fingers crossed

Nicely put Vegard 👍
My only issue with the sound has been the same since the beginning. The American Muscle Car sounds. Why does a Griffith and a Jensen Interceptor have a better V8 growl than a Camaro or Corvette with full Race Exhaust?

I am a musician and have a digital studio and know a lot about mixing sound. I did a recording of my Dodge P/U with headers, Flowmasters and replayed the sound through my studio speakers and it never lost it's tone or growl.
A C5R Corvette does not sound like a swarm of mad bees nor does a '69 Corvette.

I am fine with the rice burners but none of the RUFs or Ferrari's sound like what the game reproduces. I do have a Yamaha 5.1 surround sound system with a powered 10" Subwoofer and never really hear the subs when I play the game. I do not have any music playing just the game sounds @ 100%. So to really enjoy the American Muscle most of mine have either stock exhaust or Sports Exhaust.

So as Vegard says at least Kaz is aware of the problem I am just not sure he understands what we want to hear.

 

[1241Penguin]

To support what I said earlier:

I think he's saying that they're not capturing the sounds they want, hence the need to "design" the sounds.

I have a video of a Megane in real life and in GT5:

Real Life: (1:00-2:08)


GT5:


You can definitely hear a bit of the "whining" sound of the engine above 5K.

Another example:

Real Life Impreza: (2:19-2:25)


GT5 Impreza:

 

[montez34]

I am most disappointed by v8 sounds when aftermarket exhaust is installed, they need to come to america and record some v8s with high flow exhaust or straight pipes. A 650hp camaro shouldn't sound like a skyline when I put on racing exhaust, I'm just putting on different exhaust not swapping a 6 cylinder into it. I live in a rural area and there are tons of pickups driving around with dual exhaust so I hear v8s everyday, I also drive a chevy silverado with a 5.3 v8.

Just for an idea of how loud race cars are, I live about 15 miles away from two race tracks (half mile dirt ovals) when they race on calm nights I can clearly hear the screaming v8s outside my house, especially the sprint cars, they run around 800hp and the sound really carries a long ways.