what Group B car is that?

[Estateic]

hello, I really like Group B rallying from the 80's

and I thought I knew all of the Group B cars, Peugeot, Audi, Rover, Lancia, Ford and Renault

but what's that???

 

[Boogieman]

it's french . . it's ugly . . it must be a Citroen . .

it's a Citroen BX 4TC . .

rally version . .

road version . .

Citroen Rock!!

I almost bought a road version a few ears back . . but just almost . .

my dad used to drive "normal" BX's . . what a ugly but comfy car . .

 

[red70mach1]

Sort of looks like a production Lancia Delta from the side.

 

[Dave A]

hello, I really like Group B rallying from the 80's

and I thought I knew all of the Group B cars, Peugeot, Audi, Rover, Lancia, Ford and Renault

There's more than that still like Toyota, Mitsubishi, Triumph, FIAT, Porsche and Nissan all had at least one group B rally car and that's just off the top of my head, there are others.

This guy has some good pics on his site of rally cars including a lot of group B cars.
http://www.piczo.com/classicrallymodels?g=16453804&cr=1&rfm=y

 

[Flerbizky]

There's more than that still like Toyota, Mitsubishi, Triumph, FIAT, Porsche and Nissan all had at least one group B rally car and that's just off the top of my head, there are others.

This guy has some good pics on his site of rally cars including a lot of group B cars.
http://www.piczo.com/classicrallymodels?g=16453804&cr=1&rfm=y

Good link 👍

The Metro 6R4 is the most ridicolous car ever built - Where the T16 Evo 2, the Audis, the Lancia Stratos et al looks like they were actually "built" - the Metro always looks like a regular Metro with cardboard boxes taped to the sides :-)

Please notice - I'm not saying it as a bad thing - It's merely an observation !..

 

[Famine]

Which is odd, as it only shared three parts with the normal Metro...

 

[Scaff]

There's more than that still like Toyota, Mitsubishi, Triumph, FIAT, Porsche and Nissan all had at least one group B rally car and that's just off the top of my head, there are others.

This guy has some good pics on his site of rally cars including a lot of group B cars.
http://www.piczo.com/classicrallymodels?g=16453804&cr=1&rfm=y

Don't forget the one that got away, the Ferrari 288 GTO Evoluzione, designed and built to Group B regulations (which many people forget also covered circuit racing as well as rally), however Group B ended before the car was fully finished.

http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/cardetail.php?reqcardir=FE-288GTOEVO-79888
http://www.geocities.com/ggto288/evo/

Ferrari did not let the work go to waste however, as it was then used to develop the F40, the Duke DVD 'Too Fast to Race' (a must have for Group B fans) has footage of the 288 Evo in action and it sounds quite simply stunning.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

I did let that one get away, I'll have to look out for that video, I've never seen it before.

 

[Scaff]

I did let that one get away, I'll have to look out for that video, I've never seen it before.

Here's some info

Too Fast to Race

Still too Fast to Race

You can get them direct from Duke (very good service - I've used it a lot) or most branches of Halfords stock them).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

Cool, thanks a lot for thoes links Scaff 👍.

 

[Flerbizky]

Which is odd, as it only shared three parts with the normal Metro...

Why is that odd ?... As far as I know, the Group B cars should, somewhat at least, resemble their road going counterparts...

I'm probably misinformed though...

 

[Milliethemutt]

They had one at Goodwood FOS last year int the Style et Luxe paddock.





Edit: Don't forget the 6R4 was designed by Williams

 

[Tornado]

Which is odd, as it only shared three parts with the normal Metro...

C6 Corvette looks quite a bit like a C5 Corvette with stuff slapped on, despite it being "85% new." Same thing goes for the 996 and 997 Porsche 911.

There's more than that still like Toyota, Mitsubishi, Triumph, FIAT, Porsche and Nissan all had at least one group B rally car and that's just off the top of my head, there are others.

I know what everyone else had (Celica Twin-Cam Turbo, Staroin, 959 and 240RS), but what did Triumph and FIAT have? Besides, why would FIAT enter when they had two different types of Lancias (Rallye 037 Monte Carlo and Delta S4) already running?

 

[Dave A]

Different years, FIAT ran the Abarth 131 if I recall correctly, Triumph ran a TR7. Porsche also ran a 911 in Group B long before the 959 was planned. Toyota also developed an MR2 to run in group B but I don't think that ever raced.

 

[FastEddie12]

Weren't they a different classification to the Group B cars? I think they called it Group 4 or something. I know the Opel Manta 400 was so named because they had to build 400 of them, and the usual figure for Group B was 200.

I also remember the Porsche 924 Carrera GT, a 924 Turbo based Group B racer that looked like the (later) 944 and put out 210bhp from 2 litres before the materials could really cope. The car that I knew needed an engine rebuild every 25,000 miles because it would eat pistons... Now that was a W reg, sooo... 1981?



Edit: My mistake, the 924 Carrera GT was never a Gp B car, it was built purely for Le Mans, and they built 406 of them... Sorry, the memory plays tricks at my age...

 

[Tornado]

Yes. The Abarth 131 was a Group 4 car. Group B was not established until 1983. The Opel Manta 400, however, was a Group B car. The Ascona was the Opel Group 4 car.

 

[Scaff]

Different years, FIAT ran the Abarth 131 if I recall correctly, Triumph ran a TR7. Porsche also ran a 911 in Group B long before the 959 was planned. Toyota also developed an MR2 to run in group B but I don't think that ever raced.

Close, as has been said the 131 was never run to Group B regulations, the 911's that Porsche ran were effectively built to 959 specs (they did not want to release details of the 959 before it was fully ready) and full marks for the 'still-born' MR2, and often forgotten one.

This site should be of interest to all in here

http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/index.html


Regards

Scaff

 

[FastEddie12]

Nice! Thanks Scaff:

...Henri Toivonen drove an S4 around Estoril, the Portuguese Grand Prix circuit, so quickly that he would have qualified sixth for the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix...

 

[Scaff]

Nice! Thanks Scaff:

No problem at all.

You know I hesitated on linking to the site because of the very quote you have picked up on.

I've read many, many articles that have exploered the roots of that particular story and to a degree its picked up an almost 'urban legend' status.

To the best of my knowledge its never been proven to be true, I have never seen anything other that web based info on this.

If someone could prove it to be true I would love it, but as I say the only info I've seen on it is far from conclusive.

Regards

Scaff

 

[FastEddie12]

Hmmm, see what you mean: he reckons the R5 turbo derived its engine from the F1 car...

To the best of my knowledge the F1 engine wasn't a 1400cc R5 pushrod with a turbo stuck on the side...

 

[Scaff]

Hmmm, see what you mean: he reckons the R5 turbo derived its engine from the F1 car...

To the best of my knowledge the F1 engine wasn't a 1400cc R5 pushrod with a turbo stuck on the side...

Quite right the F1 car (I can only assume the RS01) which was a 1.5 litre V6, itself derived from the Renault 2 litre V6 F2 engine.

The R5 Maxi Turbo ran a four cylinder 1.5 hemi (it was enlarged slightly from the standard 1.4).

The only link between them is arguably Renaults experience in obtaining huge amount of power from a small capacity engine using a turbo.

Regards

Scaff

 

[FastEddie12]

To be fair, he talks about the F1 program and not the F1 car, but this is getting OT.

 

[TheCracker]

Why is that odd ?... As far as I know, the Group B cars should, somewhat at least, resemble their road going counterparts...

I'm probably misinformed though...

Group B cars didn't have to look like road cars - Ford's RS200 proves that (although it did share as many parts with the Ford Sierra as the Metro 6R4 did with the Metro - which isn't many)

Many manufacturers did make them look similar to their road cars, but only so the public could identify with them. I'm pretty sure the 205 T16's rally success will have helped the normal 205's sales figures by boosting its image.

Before Ford built the RS200 they were working on the Escort RS 1700T - a RWD Mk3 Escort built to Group B specs. Quite a few examples were built and tested but it soon became apparent that 4WD was the way forward, so they scrapped it and designed the RS200.

 

[Tedehur]

it's a Citroen BX 4TC . .

At first I had misread B4 XTC.

Quite right the F1 car (I can only assume the RS01) which was a 1.5 litre V6...

Actually they started to name their engines RSxx in 1989 with the 3.5 liter V10 (RS01) which equipped the Williams F1 car.
During the turbo era (1978/1986), the engines were named EFxx.
Source (in french) :http://www.statsf1.com/default.asp?From=/engines/fiche.asp?idMoteur=81&LG=1

 

[Famine]

No problem at all.

You know I hesitated on linking to the site because of the very quote you have picked up on.

I've read many, many articles that have exploered the roots of that particular story and to a degree its picked up an almost 'urban legend' status.

To the best of my knowledge its never been proven to be true, I have never seen anything other that web based info on this.

If someone could prove it to be true I would love it, but as I say the only info I've seen on it is far from conclusive.

Regards

Scaff

A while ago I did come across a stage time which backed this information up - but it's not clear on whether the Estoril stage of the rally used the GP track.

 

[Tedehur]

Perhaps that could help : http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00004CKC6/?tag=gtplanetuk-20

It's indeed weird that all sources for this information use almost the same sentence. Looks like a big copy/paste, but what was the initial source ?


Edit :
Found the same story but this time about Walter Röhrl and the Audi S1.
The GP at Estoril was run on September 21st, 1986, while Toivonen died on May 2nd the same year. So it can have happened during the Portuguese rally (March 5th to 9th) but not during the F1 GP.

 

[Gil Abobeleira]

Perhaps that could help : http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00004CKC6/?tag=gtplanetuk-20

It's indeed weird that all sources for this information use almost the same sentence. Looks like a big copy/paste, but what was the initial source ?


Edit :
Found the same story but this time about Walter Röhrl and the Audi S1.
The GP at Estoril was run on September 21st, 1986, while Toivonen died on May 2nd the same year. So it can have happened during the Portuguese rally (March 5th to 9th) but not during the F1 GP.

The story is a complete bogus...

The Rally of Portugal only used the Estoril racetrack as a Special Stage in the 1987 event (thought the rally HQ, start and finish were at the racetrack)...

In 1986, the lancia team were giving test-rides at the circuit prior to the start of the rally, but they used the outer circuit, not the full 4,1km F1 track...

 

[Serge.D]

a list of group b rally cars:celica twin-cam turbo,mazda rx7 4x4,opel manta 400,renault 5 turbo,peugeot 205 t16,porsche 959,audi s1,austin metro 6r4,citroen bx4tc,ford rs200,lancia 037,lancia delta s4,ferrari 288 gto,ferrari f40,mitsubishi starion 4wd (prototype),citroen visa 1000 pistes

 

[Dave A]

There was never a Ferrari F40 group B car, there was a Ferrari 288 GTO Evolution which was mental, but it never competed in Group B.

 

[Serge.D]

Different years, FIAT ran the Abarth 131 if I recall correctly, Triumph ran a TR7. Porsche also ran a 911 in Group B long before the 959 was planned. Toyota also developed an MR2 to run in group B but I don't think that ever raced.

the toyota mr2 was a group s car like the lancia ecv(group s -max.300hp).they cancelled the group s before the competition started.i saw the f40 in a list of group b cars on wikipedia