What (If Anything) Can PD Learn from ToCA Race Driver 3 in Creating the Next GT?

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When I get in a crowd of cars in a turn, even on the more powerful XBox, physics gets wonky. I think that's why Polyphony stuck with six cars for that reason. The PS2 is a pretty anemic machine when you get down to it.

Also, the PS2 online capability is very bad. Some PS2s which should work fine, like mine, don't work at all.

The seriously flawed steering of Toca 3 makes it a lackluster game at best. Gah. I may not even play it today because I just get tired of it after 20 retries. :P
 
Before buying toca 3 I made sure I completely beat GT4 (besides getting maximum aspec points of course; I have to work ya know!) .

The most enjoyment I got out of any of the GT games was definitely in our ilink/lan battles. Why? It was racing with real people and getting to communicate with them during the process. This is the exact reason why I enjoy toca; racing real people and communicating with them. The difference is instead of finding the time and t.v.'s to get together and play GT4 I just fire up the dusty old ps2 and race with them in a passworded room or even better with folks around the world. Get up in the morning and race aussies. afternoon brits and other euro countries; and at night our western brothers. We've had some interesting conversations and the more I race; the smaller our planet seems. I had bought socom solely for online; but quickly stashed that game thanks to the millions of juveniles that cluttered up a good battle. I'd say the average age of toca 3 drivers is in their late 20's or so.

I can't really say which game is better since obviously they can both learn volumes from each other. All I know is after getting toca 3 on its opening day I haven't played gt4. The steering issues; I haven't seen any major problems with that and have no trouble racing other folks within a few inches on any track with just about anything.

Final comments:
ai- don't care! I only race against people
graphics- I know gt's better but it really doesn't matter in the middle of a good battle
sound- PD could do much better. I hope they DON"T put sound through the headset since then my room wouldn't shake as the v8's or vettes cruise around
Online- more than just being "online"; I didn't like the whole xlink deal, and I really like the "real race rules" toca applied; along with the host's ability to setup everything.
setups- both have advantages/disadvantages; can't pick a fav
damage-not necessary but really cool in context to a race; especially the enduros we run online and multiple pitstops can hurt...
physics-hands down toca. REAL gravel traps that actually stop you. Go to a real race with gravel; a car goes in, most don't come out without a tow. Drifting is brilliantly simple in toca;especially on pro sim.

One thing in life I've learned is that if you try to please everyone, nobody likes it.



Everything else is just details. I like touring car style racing, (best in toca) but I also like doing my own car comparison tests (best in GT). I'm not fussing for either; but if I could only choose one of them to play....it would be the one with online racing. I'm dingulbury if you're ever on toca.:sly:
 
I have to say that after almost two weeks, I haven't touched Toca. I just can't stomach that steering. If it drove right, I'd be all over it because everything else is great. I guess I'll just be playing GT4 and Forza till the new games come out, along with a late copy of Colin McRae or Richard Burns if I can find one.

Of course that's kind of like saying, "I'll just be driving a Saleen and NSX." ;)
 
I don't really think that PD have to model car damage to impliment its effects on the cars handling.

As long as they better represent how a car reacts when it either collides with another vehicle or hits a solid object there is no real reason, apart from realism itself, for it to be implimented. Make the cars spin out when they get hit on the rear quarters, slow them down and send them spinning off when the hit a wall etc etc. If they hit a wall on the left side make one or both of the left hand tyres instantly 'red' - simulating a puncture. A frontal or rear impact should change the handling characteristics of that end of the car - a tendancy to pull left or right, especially under braking, or greater under/over steer. This would certainly enforce cleaner driving like ToCA or even Enthusia do.

As for the visual aspects of 'damage' i don't thing it's really that neccesary. I think a vast majority of GTers don't use the 'chase' cam view point and for those that do, any frontal or side damage would hardly be seen. It would only be the replays when damage would be missed - i can live without that.

I always thought that the damage modeling in earlyer TRD/ToCA games was OTT - the amount of races i still won in a car with hardly any body work on at all made the game seem pretty unrealistic in that sense.
 
-> I agree with Cracker, there are so many things that are more important than damage modeling like improving A.I. for example. (:
 
Damage should be a big focus in the game for sure. Im not sure how exactly it should be done but just in order to make the game a little more difficult in terms with racing, AND especially with money. Since GT is so easy to build up in, damage would be great because you would have to spend more money to fix up your car...and even if you don't crash majorly, there should be some things u should fix after every race. I think that would definately make the game much better because it would be more challenginga nd take longer as well.
 
People playing against people IS where it's at, just not in ToCA 3. I've played RD3 on PC and Xbox. The Xbox one is just screwed, I can't control the damn car. The PC one is just screwed as well. With my DFP, I can barely control teh car, the steering is just waaaay too floaty, and their online code is messed up. I get my taste of online racing from Live For Speed for the most part, sometimes with PGR3 on 360 and sometimes with GT Legends and that's about it.

As far as I'm concerned, PD can't learn anything from Race Driver 3. It's a crappy game. Whenever I try it, I put it down after 15 minutes and go do something else. The steering and physics and turning is just messed up. Same with Colin McRae. It was ok with CMR3, and I coped with CMR04, but steering was still screwed in CMR 2005 so I've given up on Codemasters.
 
Just three little words: Live for speed.
If u haven't tryed it, u haven't tryed the best sim of all.
All the games(including gt) mentioned in this thread don't even come close in terms of physics and driving feeling! When nailing just one corner(preferably drifting through it:)) in LFS right puts a smile on my face and the whole race in other games doesn't, that sais a lot don't u think?

p.s. Richard Burns Rally comes close too...
 
As already stated, Online with headset communication between players.

How mundane did it eventually get, by beating AI cars over and over and over agin, in GT? Very, IMO. After a shiddy day at work, I loved playing online with close friends, having some competition or at the very least a few laughs.

With GT I enjoy the current format of licenses/races, but for repeat play, online is key, and the ability to chat during races.

Also, I hope PD dumps the 24 hour races. If Im FORCED to B-spec a race(How many freakin laps do they think is excessive?), then, maybe I'll B-SPEC having PD going to the cash register and paying for my next purchase in the GT series themselves.
 
I would have thought that although a bit of a nuisance...the 24 hour races add more realism. Like i bet there are very few people that have actually A-Spec-ed a whole 24 hour race(myself included), but for some people its a pretty sweet deal.
 
speedfreak69
Just three little words: Live for speed.
If u haven't tryed it, u haven't tryed the best sim of all.
All the games(including gt) mentioned in this thread don't even come close in terms of physics and driving feeling! When nailing just one corner(preferably drifting through it:)) in LFS right puts a smile on my face and the whole race in other games doesn't, that sais a lot don't u think?

p.s. Richard Burns Rally comes close too...
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Although I agree with you, this thread is comparing TOCA Race Driver 3 and Gran Turismo 4, and most people are already aware of Live for Speed and what it's capable of. :)

We also have a Live for Speed forum.

Welcome to GTPlanet, by the way. :)
 
I bought ToCA 3 without renting it first and its the worst game I have ever actually BOUGHT for my PS, PS1 or PS2.

As was echoed, the steering is nutz! How in the world do you even get a clean lap, nevermind trying to come back from a spinout that puts you in LAST place and with 20 cars and that steering there's just NO way!

I don't have a wheel for the PS2, but I do have one for the PC and Pro Race Driver has ISSUES, I'm not even sure what came over me to buy this for the PS2. Test Drive Le Mans is better and that's not saying whole lot.

Realism on a console was already done - See Ferrari 355 on the Dreamcast

That is ONE hard car to drive quickly, period.

So what if the phyics in GT are a bit off, name one other game you can jump into from day one and be able to lap with the leader, given you have the proper car for it. The driving missions have actually improved my driving in the game. The Beetle Cup test improved my driving the most as nobody had an advantage in power or handling, you just had to drive it harder than the leader to catch him.

Im stuck on Driving Misson 34 even tho I bought the game last year... I didn't play it for about 7 months that's why, I had other pursuits.

PD can learn nothing from ToCA in my opinion...

I like Live For Speed and I agree its realistic and its actually pretty easy to drive once you get the braking and shifting down. I'm not sure I wanna see those "issues" with GT. I like the current game as-is and as for control I don't see them changing it much its just about perfect.

I agree 100% with "D", real cars don't behave like that. Any car driven HARD with decent suspension mods doesn't do anything crazy, unless you did something stupid. Get out there and drive your car hard, you find it understeers at the limit like the factory intended it too. Race cars go wherever pointed as long as the tires have grip. Drive a 125cc shifter Kart, you'll see what I mean.

GT is just fine, some tweaks are welcomed but an overhaul is not needed!
 
dj4monie
...Realism on a console was already done - See Ferrari 355 on the Dreamcast

That is ONE hard car to drive quickly, period...

...GT is just fine, some tweaks are welcomed but an overhaul is not needed!
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No offense, but I have a very hard time believing the opinion of anyone who thinks F355 Challenge was "realistic" when it comes to the realism of a racing sim, be it for console or PC.

Sure, F355 sorta kinda behaved like a car as long as you maintained grip...it sounded like a car, and accelerated, braked, and turned in a way that vaguely resembled a car, despite having a rock-solid suspension that would move very little, if at all...but as soon as you broke traction, whether it was understeer or oversteer, all hell broke loose, and you suddenly found yourself in the realm of a caliber of physics programming that dated from at least 5 years prior to F355's release -- the concepts of inertia and traction seem to have been lost on the SEGA development team.

I'm sorry, but no, F355 wasn't and will never be the console realism champ. Gran Turismo 2 was the champ back when F355 was released (until GT3 came out a year later), and Enthusia Professional Racing is the champ today.

...for the record, though, I enjoy playing F355 Challenge. It's a fun arcade game, what with the 6-speed shifter and clutch. :D The home versions were far less enjoyable, but still neat. "Realistic," however, is not a word I would use to describe any of the versions of the game.

As for the Gran Turismo series, GT3 was pretty damned good, despite having mushy steering, too much grip in most situations, questionable straight-line wheelspin modelling, and a steering-correction system (to make the game playable with the DS2) that sometimes overcompensated (making some difficult maneuvers easy), and other times didn't compensate enough (making it a bit too easy to spin out in a full-countersteer slide).

With GT4, however, Polyphony decided to take a step backwards. They fixed the mushy steering by making it hypersensitive. They fixed the "too much grip" problem by expanding the tire selection and making the game understeer more in general. They didn't fix the questionable straight-line wheelspin modelling, but no one seems to notice, instead opting for the "hey I can't do donuts anymore" complaint. :rolleyes: Finally, the fixed the steering-correction system, solving the "not compensating enough" problem by giving the front tires 10x more grip than they should in countersteer situations, and fixed the "overcompensating" problem by giving the front tires 1/10th as much grip as they should in corner entry, forcing you to buy a Driving Force Pro (great marketing, huh?) in either case, which still doesn't fix the game's other problems.

Given the fact that GT4 was quite obviously limited by its hardware (and it really shouldn't have been -- I blame PD for biting off more than they could chew), GT5 may not actually need an "overhaul" of its engine, but rather an optimized, tweaked, and elaborated version of GT4's...on the other hand, it's hard to expect greatness out of something that was programmed for a previous-generation console, especially when GT4 itself was a tweaked version of the even-older GT3.

If I can tell that Polyphony Digital have started over from scratch for GTHD:P/GT5, I'll give them credit for trying, even if the physics still suck like they did in GT4. I just hope I'll have a more valid reason to give them credit.

dj4monie
I like Live For Speed and I agree its realistic and its actually pretty easy to drive once you get the braking and shifting down. I'm not sure I wanna see those "issues" with GT. I like the current game as-is and as for control I don't see them changing it much its just about perfect.
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If you like Gran Turismo for its blend of realism and accessibility (read: non-realism), I can respect that opinion. However, referring to learning to brake and shift in Live for Speed as "issues" that you'd rather not see in GT is not the sort of thing that you should say if you really want GT5 to be worthy of the title, "the Real Driving Simulator."

dj4monie
PD can learn nothing from ToCA in my opinion...
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I wouldn't go that far (although PD already allayed my one caveat with that statement by showing us lots of cars on a track in GTHD), but there is certainly nothing that PD can learn from TRD3 as far as physics go. I completely agree with you on the "crazy steering" -- the "professional" mode they gave us is just the same floaty, vague engine they've been using since TRD1 (and on the Colin McRae games), but with extra wheelspin and brake-locking. :rolleyes:
 
That said RD3 has fantastic handling when your driving a fwd car.
 
What (If Anything) Can PD Learn from ToCA Race Driver 3 in Creating the Next GT?

Definitely the AI. I'm not saying that it is perfect in TRD3, but it sure is better than GT4.

Besides, if you consider that GT:HD will have more cars on track, PD must work on the AI, or else the races will become the ultimate nightmare.
 
divadkba69
I would have thought that although a bit of a nuisance...the 24 hour races add more realism. Like i bet there are very few people that have actually A-Spec-ed a whole 24 hour race(myself included), but for some people its a pretty sweet deal.
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I would say that although the 24hr races are an added realism, the fact is, no body ever does a 24hr race in real life on their own. You always have 2 or 3 drivers sharing a car. I've never done one of GT4's 24hr races for the simple fact that PD don't give you the chance of saving mid-race. You can save a game mid championship but not mid race. For this reason i will never do a 24hr GT4 race, no matter how much i want the cars you can win from them. I just don't have a spare 24hrs in my life to compete in one of these events. 24hrs is about a month's PS2 time for me - and i'm not leaving my PS2 on for a month.

I'ts not only the time issue that stoped me from competing in the 24hr events, it's the fact that 5 opponents, especially on a long circuit like LeMans or The Ring just isn't enough. Half an hour into a race like this and you'll already know whether you'll win or lose it. A larger field and the possibility of random breakdowns or collision damage, like TRD3 offers, and a 24hr race becomes a more appealing possibility to me.

I appologise for straying off-topic a bit here.
 
We can go around and around on this. F355 was a very good for its time arcade game. The Dreamcast version is the best of the bunch by far on a console.

I don't know if GT steering is like mush, I turn the wheel in my '98 Neon ACR sedan and it goes were pointed. 16:1 steering ratio and most cars are MUCH slower in terms of steering ratios. Also that car is very perdicable on the limit, which is more than I can say for more FWD cars before and since.

Big sway bars, adjustable camber and single adjustable Koni's tend to do that to a car that stock was the best handling FWD car available for AWHILE and SCCA Showroom Stock B and C championships bear that out.

An ACR did over 1.0g on the skidpad both ways in an issue of Car & Driver some years back. Dead stock suspension, just BFG Comp T/A R autocross tires.

So that's my reference for what a properly setup FWD should act like. You dive into a corner too hard and it understeers like a pig, like any FWD car should. But unlike most FWD cars, mine was setup to have throttle off oversteer, which takes getting used too, but if your ready for it, you can really hussle the car up in the canyons.

What I don't like about the wheel/brakes/pedal in LFS, is I couldn't get the brakes setup right. I had the same problem with Pro Race Driver, but none of those problems with Sport Car GT. The brakes in GT are more predicable and progressive, right to the point of lock up, but not quite. If you have a feel for your braking system, seldom will you actually lock up your brakes. That's when you know driving harder is actually making you slower.

I'm not here to argue, I just don't feel PD is that far off the mark that they need to look at a competitors game for ideas on improvements.
 
Wolfe2x7
No offense, but I have a very hard time believing the opinion of anyone who thinks F355 Challenge was "realistic" when it comes to the realism of a racing sim, be it for console or PC.
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Now that is just mean. Can't we agree it was good enough at the time like we did before?





Anyways, on the subject of what PD can learn from Toca 3, I have to agree very little. While the A.I. was pretty good in Toca 3, it was very good in the original Toca as well; and that was over 9 years ago, so that's hardly relavent.
The problem lies in that the versions of the series I've played (Toca 1, Jarret and Labonte Stock Car Racing, Race Driver 2 and 3) the physics engine simply hasn't gone anywhere. And I don't mean that it hasn't been replaced. I mean that, unlike GT1 to GT3 where new variables were added, the game "feels" exactly the same as it has always felt with the exception of the more wheelspin mentioned by Wolfe.
And the problem was that it was eclipsed by other sim games within a year of it's release, most notably by GP Legends and Viper Racing, not to mention the previously mentioned Sports Car GT within 2 years. Hell, even NFS:PU models weight tranfer better (granted, I would argue that it models weight transfer even better than GT4, but whatever).
Toca Race Driver 3 (and all it's prequels) suffers from having the ability to (rather easily) jab the handbrake and slide every car through every turn on any track without any worry of the rearend coming around as long as you hit the throttle. GT4 suffers from this as well, but for a totally different reason established by Wolfe. And I'll be damned if you can pull that off in SCGT or Viper Racing without making a total fool of yourself.
 
Toronado
Now that is just mean. Can't we agree it was good enough at the time like we did before?
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Sorry, but I just don't get what people see in that game. I have more experience with the PS2 and Arcade versions of the game (mostly the arcade game) than I do with the Dreamcast version, but I have tried the Dreamcast version, and it didn't seem any different.

Sure, other than the issues it has with oversteer, F355 is pretty good, even more realistic than a handful of modern racing games. But it wasn't, isn't, and won't be the king of console sims. With the bodyroll/weight transfer and oversteer problems, it simply can't be.
 
Regardless of what we think of these games, the fact remains that, on the PS2, there are no other on-line racing/driving sims other than the ToCA series. ToCA 2 and 3 are our only choices, now and way into the future, unless something crawls out of the woodwork. Is ToCA perfect? No, but no other PS2 driving sim is, either.

ToCA is more fun on-line than GT can ever be right now (since PD removed their on-line section of GT4), if you set aside each game's other faults. It seems many of you are not that forgiving, though, just to have a bit of fun with some great drivers. Anyone who can handle Enthusia can do the same with ToCA. Anyone used to GT can switch between these games with no problems (well, except a few of you...).

It's just a question of desire. 💡 Hmmm, let's see. Shall I play off-line until I get a PS3 and drop a fortune into GT:HD, too, or shall I play ToCA on-line now? It's not a hard decision to make. Even if you don't have broadband now, you can play ToCA 2 over dial-up! How many other good PS2 games can you say that about them? Oh, and all of those real ToCA tracks, damage that affects the car's performance and better sound than GT4's! Go ahead and close your eyes if you wish, but don't cut up a good game without taking other important aspects into account. GT is no angle when it comes to problems, so let's cut the double-standard crap.

Anyone who buys a PS2 from now until they stop making them, will also have to deal with the only PS2 on-line game series available now. If your only choice is playing on the PS2, you don't have to hold your nose to have some on-line racing fun. ToCA is fun because you are playing with real people, despite its faults, and that should be enough to consider playing it. The on-line features are reasonable but not perfect, with good host controls. Unfortunately, GameSpy sucks. The on-line community has thinned and matured, with most clean action in league races now. There are some extremely good ToCA players, too, and anyone ignoring this game is missing out on their great competition!

To get back on-topic, my suggestions about the title subject were mentioned in the original thread, in the PS2 forum here.

Cheers,

MasterGT
 
Besides the well-known things that aren't decent in toca3, there are some that make it worth playing over GT4. First of all, the whole inside the car view - that's awesome, even if the graphics are kind of cartoony. I mean, come on, you saw the high detail of interiors in the photo mode in GT4, it couldn't be that much more modeling if I could just drive inside the car!The shaking and rattling noises when at high speed in Toca are a plus, too. I also like the increased tightness of the corners in Toca3 that you can take - don't mistake that for a goofy simulation towards overhandling, it actually feels more real, like it does in actual driving. You know, like taking a tight corner at 60mph in real life can scare the crap out of you, it feels like that in Toca. The only sim I've seen that does the best job at the gauges is PGR3. The speedo and rpm on the dash, not on the foreground, are awesome. But, the major downfall of every game is that the amount of extreme modification that you can't do without game shark codes. I'm speaking of my 6000 hp skyline with F/094 tires and a 200 value for downforce that does +500mph in GT3! Of course, I don't expect that much power, and Forza has come the closest in the mods that make me happy, but it falls short. I can't put a super/turbo on EVERY car, swap engines in EVERY car, or tune it more realistically (imagine a tuning simulator). The widest tires in Forza are 435mm on the GNX, but I can't use them on any other car! What if I want to control the boost pressure manually in the settings screen for my blown big block to make 1500 hp with 435's on the back and turn over 8 second 1/4 mi? What if I want 22.5 psi of boost in my turbo mustang that makes 1000 hp for road racing? What if I want 335's on all four tires on a skyline? Forza definately has the accurate tire hookup physics of all games, and I know that everyone else also wants more domestic american cars in GT5, as well. I'd love to race my '94 mustang gt ( or mabey more pickups??) or '00 ranger sport. I hope PD reads this, because I know other people would want to tune to the extreme ( in the game ) as well. Plus, and I know that this is a Toca-GT4 comparasin thread, but Forza has a lot of driving points here (no pun intended), the mph gauge is most realistic, and I'm referring to the numbering and tick mark placements that allow you to see the acceleration at over 150mph in a 1000hp car- frikin rediculous. The one in GT4-not so well defined.
 
Sense of Speed - get out of an audi r8 in gt4 and get into a bmw m5 and it feels slow - menwhile in toca you can go from an f1 car to a clio and you still feel lke you are travelling quickly

Handling - on toca the 'sim' handling is how i like it - realistic but not so realistic that i find it frustrating. pro sim handling is available for those more used to stuff like live for speed and rfactor. the same applies to damage. Such a system on gt5 would be much better as on gt4 if you have asm on its too easy and if you have it off it handles like a pig.

Interface - i like the way there is no indicator showing you what gear t go down to and when to brake on trd3 - using the map in the bottom left of the screen allows me to see what corner is coming and judge what gear to use. gt5 should have system like that.
 
johngt
Sense of Speed - get out of an audi r8 in gt4 and get into a bmw m5 and it feels slow - menwhile in toca you can go from an f1 car to a clio and you still feel lke you are travelling quickly
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Well, that is rather realistic, wouldn´t you say? If you drive an R8 and then get into an M5, the M5 should feel slow and sluggish I´d say.
Handling - on toca the 'sim' handling is how i like it - realistic but not so realistic that i find it frustrating. pro sim handling is available for those more used to stuff like live for speed and rfactor. the same applies to damage. Such a system on gt5 would be much better as on gt4 if you have asm on its too easy and if you have it off it handles like a pig.
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That is just a question of skill, and has nothing to do with the games themselves.
Interface - i like the way there is no indicator showing you what gear t go down to and when to brake on trd3 - using the map in the bottom left of the screen allows me to see what corner is coming and judge what gear to use. gt5 should have system like that.
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You can actually turn the gearaid system off in GT4, so you don´t have to have it if you don´t want to.
 
Why is most people complaining about the steering? Play the game they are two different physics engines, they both have their pro's and con's i have both, finished TOCA 1 & 2 and am at 48% for TOCA 3. For the parts of the world that have their local racing series in the game (V8 Supercars and DTM) it's a much better game. What PD needs to learn is that JGTC (Super GT) is not the only major racing series in the world, they need to broaden their horizons and think outside japan. Codemasters have and in my opinion makes Toca a much more enjoyable experince. Don't get me wrong i love GT but not as much as TOCA (V8 Supercars)
 
TheBigMan045
Why is most people complaining about the steering? Play the game they are two different physics engines, they both have their pro's and con's i have both, finished TOCA 1 & 2 and am at 48% for TOCA 3. For the parts of the world that have their local racing series in the game (V8 Supercars and DTM) it's a much better game. What PD needs to learn is that JGTC (Super GT) is not the only major racing series in the world, they need to broaden their horizons and think outside japan. Codemasters have and in my opinion makes Toca a much more enjoyable experince. Don't get me wrong i love GT but not as much as TOCA (V8 Supercars)
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I couldn´t agree more! But I must say that GT4 was a big leap forward when in comes to racecars though.

The racing in TOCA is fine, but I don´t like the build of the gameplay very much. I think PD´s vision on how a game should be built is better.
 
live4speed
That said RD3 has fantastic handling when your driving a fwd car.
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I think that's the most useful thing PD could learn from TOCA seeing as how so many of the cars in GT5 will be FWD. I love the way the Clios oversteer at first since it's hard to get the rears warmed up (just like in real life FWD race series'), and they'll still be able to understeer OR break into oversteer past the limit, which is a lot better compard to an infinite amount of FWD cars in GT4 that seem to only know understeer no matter what.

I suppose the next obvious thing is online gaming - just making a racing game online though doesn't make it good. RD3 enabled very close racing with it's different series, and I'd like to see a similar structure in GT5 online, or at least an option for it.
 
TheBigMan045
Why is most people complaining about the steering?
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Complaining about GT4's steering or ToCA's?

In GT4 because the game limits oversteering and in ToCA because those who are used to the game controlling steering, in GT and Enthusia, don't understand or like ToCA not controlling it. Some games just don't have everything you are used or that you like, so complaints rise.

Cheers,

MasterGT
 

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