What is clean racing?

  • Thread starter Thread starter iridegravity
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Number one rule of online racing starts is, always, always, always stick to the inside of the track. Most of the carnage is caused by guys braking too early and getting hit from behind or guys behind braking too late. They collide, one or both gets pushed to the outside into the marbles or sand trap and it's game over. There's far less action on the inside. I've had many many starts in a reverse grid situation of starting at the back and emerging from the first corner in the top 5 almost every time. And on the inside, if you do get jammed up from behind, you usually get pushed into someone else on the outside of you and continue on with little penalty.

Works at most tracks. It's a little dicey at Monza with the chicane because of the concrete barrier though.
 
I've had many many starts in a reverse grid situation of starting at the back and emerging from the first corner in the top 5 almost every time.

This ^^^^

So true, the times I play online I either entered and didnt qualify (back) or reverse grid (near back) and to be honest... I kinda like the back because yes, most rooms I have been in, that first corner becomes a mess.... Yeah...
 
When racing Yoda said it best:
“Do or do not... there is no try.”
Either you clear a car safely or you don't. Don't try if you know you may not be capable of it.
Accidents happen, but that's why we carry an extra pair of shorts in the backpack.
 
I usually end up in really clean lobbies. With full lobby though, the back of the pack is not usually a good place to be. Usually end up getting knocked off the road and get stuck at the back, no matter how cautiously I approach that erratic driver I should be ahead of.[/QUOTE]

Win a race, drift a race. Win a race, drift a race. When starting from the back, I always am extremely cautious and if things don't pan out or the racing at the back is lame, I am content to just chill and get my drift on. Every once in a while, you might get lucky and they will race you clean until your through, but not often and you usually cant get away with it more than a couple times before people start taking you out. Fact is, people don't like getting passed and if they can do something about it, like hit you, they will. Just comes with the territory.
 
Purposely ramming people is completely unnecessary, but if I was rich enough to buy a $500,000 race car in real life, I could probably manage to fix some sheet metal/ fiberglass between weekends.
 
Nothing more than trading paint.

and sometimes deaths!!!!!!

Your probably one of the guys Im watching from the back thinking "GAME OVER" and laughing.

just saying

Clean Racing IS..."nothing more than trading paint". ----Nice take

I am guessing you would not even bother looking for a clean room
y u here?
 
Clean racing is not having the intend to touch or drastically change the line of the other cars.

But sometimes you misjudge, the draft effects surprise you, you make a mistake, these are racing incidents. With heavy incidents you wait for the other to pass again.

Ramming, driving in the wrong direction, cutting corners intentionally etc... is for gamers, not racers and that is not clean.
 
Clean racing is not having the intend to touch or drastically change the line of the other cars.

But sometimes you misjudge, the draft effects surprise you, you make a mistake, these are racing incidents. With heavy incidents you wait for the other to pass again.

Ramming, driving in the wrong direction, cutting corners intentionally etc... is for gamers, not racers and that is not clean.

Again, baloney. Clean racing is not touching other cars, intent has nothing to do with it. It's the outcome that counts not what you had in your mind.

I was surprised by the draft effect...in December of 2010. The games been out for a year, unless you are brand new to online racing, everyone has had plenty of time to figure out that in the draft you're faster and need to brake a bit earlier. That's a lame excuse.
 
Again, baloney. Clean racing is not touching other cars, intent has nothing to do with it. It's the outcome that counts not what you had in your mind.

I was surprised by the draft effect...in December of 2010. The games been out for a year, unless you are brand new to online racing, everyone has had plenty of time to figure out that in the draft you're faster and need to brake a bit earlier. That's a lame excuse.

Who is the dirty driver: Prost or Senna?



Why did not one of these professionals get fired for dirty driving?

=> intent!

Btw: I do not drive like Prost or Senna, so the incidents I will have will be worse (if possible) then this!
 
Basically, you still need to take risks and try to overtake, but little touches are bound to happen.

Try to avoid contact whenever possible. Sometimes it won't be, like when you're side by side with another car or in front nearly side by side and going through a corner.

I played on a server with full penalties and I had the inside line of a corner, but someone cut me off and ran me off track causing me to get a penalty. Don't do that. If you're on the outside, take the wider line and try to overtake later.
 
Who is the dirty driver: Prost or Senna?



Why did not one of these professionals get fired for dirty driving?

=> intent!

Btw: I do not drive like Prost or Senna, so the incidents I will have will be worse (if possible) then this!


This is an excellent example it illustrates my point perfectly, thank you for posting this video. The answer is, it's irrelevant to this discussion. What is relevant is, this is an extremely isolated incindent. Thousands of laps were run before and after this by F1 drivers without any contact whatsover. This one stands out because there was contact, this is not representative of Forumla 1 in general, what is representative is the 60 laps of the race, with 20 drivers per lap going through the same corner year after year, without contact.

So it doesn't matter if Prost or Senna was at fault or neither. What matters is this same corner and every other corner on the track has been negotiated thousands of times without incident. If online racing had one incident in 1000 corners we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
How much contact should there be in a clean race?

Depends on what you're racing and who you're against.

In F1, pretty deadly. In BTCC and NASCAR, it's how you win. There is no clear answer to this philosophical question, other than what's been given in whatever rule book you're reading.

Why weren't Senna or Prost penalized for their respective incidents? Simple. They win. A lot. I know it isn't the answer most people like, but when you've got someone making you mountains of cash, looking the other way becomes a lot easier.
 
Depends on what you're racing and who you're against.

In F1, pretty deadly. In BTCC it's how you win.

^^^^^THIS is the point I was trying to make earlier.

You will ALWAYS get some kind of contact in closed-wheel racing.

I will repeat my earlier statement, as long as it`s not TOO aggressive or blatant ramming, `rubbin`s` fine.

And rubbin`s racing.

This post is not intended to cause offence.
 
^^^^^THIS is the point I was trying to make earlier.

You will ALWAYS get some kind of contact in closed-wheel racing.

I will repeat my earlier statement, as long as it`s not TOO aggressive or blatant ramming, `rubbin`s` fine.

And rubbin`s racing.

This post is not intended to cause offence.

Anytime you have two people competing for the same peice of real estate, there's gonna be conflict. This is why the pros have racing stewarts, usually former racers, to determine whether or not an offense deserves a penalty.

As for Senna vs. Prost, I blame Prost for setting the precedent. Senna's reaction the next year was based upon that precedent, as further evidenced by the drivers meetings before the race. The clip is good, but doesn't offer full context like the Senna documentary did for me.

When racing online, even in dirty shuffle races, I try to offer the same respect that's extended to me. If people are racing clean, I'll follow suit and give up positions for cutting corners or contact. If I'm getting slammed in the turns, I'm gonna rope-a-dope the poor S.O.B. the next time into the wall, but still without contact.

Senna was right in saying that as a racer you should go for every gap, but in doing so you must also commit yourself to the consequences of your choice. Senna and Prost got away with it, but F1 eventually grew up and learned from the mistake, proving so in Jerez with Schumacher and Villenueve. If you go for that gap, and it goes bad, you'll be lucky to end up with a penalty... or rather unlucky with a death.

This year's been a pretty philosophical year for my racecraft, and this question alone has kept me up a few nights.
 
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I ran in the fastest GT500 room I've ever seen last night. I ran 6/8 laps at Deep Forest under 1:07 and didn't win. I ran 5 standing start laps at Spa under 6:00 and I finished 3rd. I qualified under 51 seconds at Tsukuba and didn't make the top half of the grid. Not unusual to find those kinds of times in one or two drivers, but not a half dozen. It continued like this all night. We went to a dozen or more tracks and I can safely say among the fastest half dozen drivers, other than a little bump under braking here and there that caused no one to lose position or get unsettled it was incident free all night from where I sat, except for one off under braking, and except for the back markers who were bumping and banging all night. That's hundreds of driver laps.

These are some of the fastest cars in the game, requiring the quickest reaction times, driven on the edge lap after lap and there was very little contact. I can't recall the number of times we went through corners two wide with no contact whatsover but on almost every track on the first lap there was an inside/outside battle for position in the first corner and to the best of my recollection not only did no one get put off, no one even touched.

It was like this because everyone knew this is what the host expected, and we all respected each other as drivers, it was as simple as that. Experience in the cars helps and knowing your limits and the limits of the car you are driving. Everyone should take it upon themselve to know their own limits and the limits of the vehicles they choose to drive online. Getting at the front of a Reverse Grid of 13 guys in a car you are "trying out for the first time" is disrespectful. Of course you can do it if you want to it's a free world, you can also stick needles in your eye if you want to, so that's an invalid argument.

If you go to race online you have an obligation to the other drivers to know your car of choice and your own driving limits. It's not a place to experiment. If you know your limits and the limits of your car and you race with respect for the other drivers, there is no excuse of anything other than the slightest of incidental contact, and certainly nothing that would unsettle another car.
 
as long as the contact isn`t blatent ramming, it`s classed as a `racing incident`.

I personally only use cockpit view, so unless I can see the car coming up behind me in the mirror, I don`t know what`s around me, so, if a car is next to me on the grid & decides to stay next to me going into turn 1, I can`t see it/don`t know it`s there, so I will take the racing line & inevitably make contact with the car on my inside, unless he either backs off, or outbrakes me, which is when I can see who`s where.

You don't need chase cam to see who's around you, just switch the track map to scale 1 or 2 and a quick glance up there just before entering the corner is usually all you need. If someone is inside or outside of you, you only need hold your lane in the corner, it's quite simple actually. I race all night long in public lobbies and never make contact with anyone, unless it's them running into me.

^^👍^^
Who is the dirty driver: Prost or Senna?



Why did not one of these professionals get fired for dirty driving?


As for Senna vs. Prost, I blame Prost for setting the precedent. Senna's reaction the next year was based upon that precedent, as further evidenced by the drivers meetings before the race. The clip is good, but doesn't offer full context like the Senna documentary did for me.

When racing online, even in dirty shuffle races, I try to offer the same respect that's extended to me. If people are racing clean, I'll follow suit and give up positions for cutting corners or contact. If I'm getting slammed in the turns, I'm gonna rope-a-dope the poor S.O.B. the next time into the wall, but still without contact.

Senna was right in saying that as a racer you should go for every gap, but in doing so you must also commit yourself to the consequences of your choice. Senna and Prost got away with it, but F1 eventually grew up and learned from the mistake, proving so in Jerez with Schumacher and Villenueve. If you go for that gap, and it goes bad, you'll be lucky to end up with a penalty... or rather unlucky with a death.

This year's been a pretty philosophical year for my racecraft, and this question alone has kept me up a few nights.

Senna was given a 6 month suspended licence ban and i think it was a $100,000 fine from this incident but nothing(world drivers title) from the incident the next year.
 
Who is the dirty driver: Prost or Senna?



Why did not one of these professionals get fired for dirty driving?

=> intent!

Btw: I do not drive like Prost or Senna, so the incidents I will have will be worse (if possible) then this!


Sennas fault/mistake in 1st place (in any scenario braked too late). Prost wasn't aware enough, and it ended up that way. Wouldn't necessarily call anyone dirty. I'm sure neither wanted it to end that way.
 
Clean racing is not having the intend to touch or drastically change the line of the other cars.

But sometimes you misjudge, the draft effects surprise you, you make a mistake, these are racing incidents. With heavy incidents you wait for the other to pass again.

Ramming, driving in the wrong direction, cutting corners intentionally etc... is for gamers, not racers and that is not clean.

I pull over and wont take any pass if it involved any kind of contact. I am the guy in the back that needs to find my way through the right way. Only way I take with contact is in a pack of three or more where things were beyond my control and I was able to take advantage of two people jostling. 1 on 1 though. You better earn it. If I have ridden your bumper for a while and determined I am quicker. Then i will rub ya a little as long as I don't upset your line. People who can't hold the in or outside racing line when two wide in a corner...won't race them.

An "incident", whether light or heavy, means someone made a mistake. Almost always the person trailing because they're vision is limited. Who would keep a pass on a light mistake? Not me
 
Again, baloney. Clean racing is not touching other cars, intent has nothing to do with it. It's the outcome that counts not what you had in your mind.

I was surprised by the draft effect...in December of 2010. The games been out for a year, unless you are brand new to online racing, everyone has had plenty of time to figure out that in the draft you're faster and need to brake a bit earlier. That's a lame excuse.

This^^.....Had a guy do me dirty the other night and keep it. When I called him on keeping the position and race win, he said. "Sorry..Closing speed caught me out". As if being able to slipstream someone entitles you to the right of way. Sometimes the guy in first is driving a conservative line to preserve a race win.
 
2 words, Intent and Experience

I do believe that sums it up.

1) Intend should make that there is no rubbing, only exceptional.
2) Experience makes that there is too much rubbing online, so showing respect for the others is essential.
3) there are party spoilers everywhere

Getting at the front of a Reverse Grid of 13 guys in a car you are "trying out for the first time" is disrespectful.

True, but the level of participants online is so different that the one doing it might not have the Experience to understand their ignorance.


My experience yesterday, in a "Free run only" 24h Nurb room I set up a driver went reverse direction on the track to meet up. It actually did not disturb me that much since it was in a simulation "Free run only". Although I was trying to get an idea of the time I could realise. Conclusion, although the intend was not too bad (meet up), it was still a party spoiler, since the driver did not have the experience to see the craziness of the action. In real life that man would be banned for life on that track!
 
I believe clean racing means zero contact. Treat the GT5 race as if you were driving your REAL car in REAL life.

I find most minor contact does occur because of the lack of vision that interior view provides, and everything else is avoidable and unacceptable.

...What?!

First off driving your real car wouldn't be much like GT5, since most people don't race their daily driver or have a daily driver that is like any of the performance cars in GT5 (very few do). So that standard to race with probably does win you much. The idea is to drive on the limit and push the car to the end so you can win, find openings and use that to outperform and out skill your opponent. Racing is very strategic and setting up your opponent is key and sometimes the execution of the setup doesn't always come out clean, but that is the nature of racing.

The idea of 100% clean from some of you is funny, it's like trying to catch a wild animal or chasing a tornado or surfing a giant wave, but taking the safest route possible so nothing happens. It's not possible and it's more irrational to try doing it that way then just driving and respecting the other person.

Also if a person blocks me through out the entire race costing me time, I'm most likely going to set the up in a way that they'll take both of us out or end up in the wall. If a car or driver is faster than you and you take up all the space, because of this ideal that the race is meant to be "100% clean" then you're not racing so much as following the car ahead.
 
...What?!

The idea of 100% clean from some of you is funny, it's like trying to catch a wild animal or chasing a tornado or surfing a giant wave, but taking the safest route possible so nothing happens. It's not possible and it's more irrational to try doing it that way then just driving and respecting the other person.

Also if a person blocks me through out the entire race costing me time, I'm most likely going to set the up in a way that they'll take both of us out or end up in the wall. If a car or driver is faster than you and you take up all the space, because of this ideal that the race is meant to be "100% clean" then you're not racing so much as following the car ahead.

You think it's funny and not possible to race clean when I think it's common courtesy and easily achievable with a little brains and a little respect, and I do it every night. No not every single lap or race of course, accidents do happen, but in rooms I run in with good, clean, respectful drivers, each of us may have once questionable incident in an evening of racing not one or multiples per race. I can live with some contact in 1 out of 50 laps of racing in an evening. I pass and repass others numerous times in a close race, but I and they choose their spots.

A guy makes a slight bobble going through the esses at Suzuka and you don't divebomb in and get your nose in front of his rear bumper, that's just ignorant. He's going to take his position on the track back and there will be an incident. If he slides out to the edge of the track that's different, lots of room by all means take his place. If you're 100 feet behind when beginning to brake for the first corner at Suzuka but you have a run because of the draft, and you decide to shoot out at the very last second from behind someone and divebomb them under braking after they've begun their turn in, that's also ignorant and likely to lead to a coming together. It's all about running a total race, picking and choosing your spot to pass and feeling good about a hard fought, cleanly run race, win or lose. My ego is not so small that I can't live with finishing second in a hard fought, no contact battle with multiple lead changes, is yours?

As far as blocking goes, you're doing what a lot of people do and taking an extreme example and setting it up as the "norm" when it's not. I've raced a lot online and rarely ever seen anyone swerving to block outside of Nascar usually. And "blocking" is legal, if it involved one lane change. "Swerving" back and forth to block is not legal, and everyone should know the difference. In the real life competitive racing I've engaged in and in GT5, most guys at the front protect the inside line on corner entry, that's what you're supposed to do, it's legal and perfectly acceptable.

So if it's actually swerving and dodging you're talking about you have a legitimate point. If it's just blocking the inside line or making one lane change then you need to brush up on your racecraft.

Regardless, racing clean, multiple lead changes, bumper to bumper action is easily possible with drivers that respect each other, I do it all the time, and if you don't believe it can happen, then it never will.
 
It was mentioned that F1 races negotiate thousands of corners with no incidents. That's true, but helped by the fact when the lead car is over 3 seconds a lap faster than the 10th place car, and 6 seconds a lap faster than the last running competitor on a 3+ mile course. There is a large discrepancy (lack of parity) that helps some of the best drivers in the world look even better. Combine that with the respect and intent to drive clean, and you see some interesting races. If you get all of these cars into a NASCAR parity scenario (within a second per lap usually), you will practically never see passes. It's similar to multi-class endurance racing. A LMP driver is always going to pass a GT driver and both are going to try and drive hard respectfully, but it's not often to see cars in the same class pass each other. Most times there are no problems, but sometimes there are(see LeMans this year with Rockenfeller). They're unfortunate, but happen. Neither of the gentlemen involved were driving dirty.

The video posted previously is an example of a racing incident. Prost shouldn't have cut down, in my opinion. It(and similar events) happen thousands of times in a weekend over multiple racing series, including grass roots series. Chucking 2500-3500lb vehicles into corners at 60-140mph isn't easy and there are bound to be mistakes.

The values of intent, prudence, and avoidability are placed on both drivers (or more) when incidences happen. Clean driving happens outside of these incidences and inside these incidences when there is no intent, prudence has been taken, and they tried to avoid the incident. "Making" an incident not happen isn't realistic, it may be ideal, but not close to practical. Only you have control of your steel rocket(more or less), and you're at the mercy of the laws of physics and the other drivers.

Sometimes you have to take chances, like trying to out-brake and pass on the inside when there is a clearly open lane to do so(like the video). This isn't limited to passing, though. If you aren't going to do it, you will probably never be successful. Any driver knows that they will not always just be given a position, they have to push for it. Now... that does not excuse any contact. It just happens sometimes. Humans make mistakes, and technology sometimes fails. If you were to ask a race car driver, "Have you ever taken a calculated risk?", and they answered no, they'd be lying(or not interested in winning or getting to the next level). Every amateur and professional racer I've asked has answered yes. Clean racing is very complex, but values and ethics are a large part of it, not just a lack of contact.
 
Clean racing is the term representing the politeness/fairness of our driving etiquette without injustice of breaching the rules based on fundamental manners recognizable for anyone as "illegal", but ramming isn't counted tas "illegal factors" just because it's considered to be safe by us.
 
Sometimes you have to take chances, like trying to out-brake and pass on the inside when there is a clearly open lane to do so(like the video). This isn't limited to passing, though. If you aren't going to do it, you will probably never be successful. Any driver knows that they will not always just be given a position, they have to push for it. Now... that does not excuse any contact. It just happens sometimes. Humans make mistakes, and technology sometimes fails. If you were to ask a race car driver, "Have you ever taken a calculated risk?", and they answered no, they'd be lying(or not interested in winning or getting to the next level). Every amateur and professional racer I've asked has answered yes. Clean racing is very complex, but values and ethics are a large part of it, not just a lack of contact.

I agree with most of what you say and I think it highlights for me, the difference between incident free driving and calamity...lol. I do most of my passing in two ways.

1. On a straight using the draft.
2. Pressuring the driver in front until he makes a mistake, but without contact.

A monkey could pass using the draft effect in GT5, especially the strong draft. Get within a second at the start of most straightaways and you can pass somewhere before the next corner.

Pressuring the driver in front to me involves staying close, the odd little bump on the straight sometimes to let him know I'm there, "showing" pass but not taking it etc. It's a psychological battle trying to throw the guy in front of me off his game. It works quite often.

So when it's the last lap, and I'm head to head with one or more drivers, and I know I cannot pass using the draft and no one's making any mistakes, then I choose not to stick my nose in front of his rear bumper (not a legal maneuvre in the GTPlanet Racing Rules anyway), nor bump him from behind entering a corner. That's my choice that I'd rather lose fair and square than make a high risk maneuvre and take us both out, or take him out and not me, and go on to a tainted victory.

At most tracks there is an opportunity for a late draft pass. At Tsukuba for instance, get a run out of the last hairpin and draft up to parellel or beyond entering the final corner. At Deep Forest get a run out of the last corner and draft by. At Road Course Indy, Daytona etc. you can draft right up to the S/F line with a long run up. On tracks that don't offer that type of pass, you have to pass earlier. Trial Mountain comes to mind. You have to set up a pass on the back straight, take the lead and then run a defensive line to hold on.

My point is, there is a way to win at every track, without making high risk maneuvres that result in contact. You have to take a whole race approach and know the track, not just fly by the seat of your pants and win at all costs, the costs being borne mostly by your fellow racers in terms of their race enjoyment. That's not racing, that's arcade, and the whole point of this GT5 exercise is to move towards real racing, not arcade racing.
 
A monkey could pass using the draft effect in GT5, especially the strong draft.
:lol: The extreme irony in that statement! Evolved draft effect for evolved monkeys! :sly: Good one.
My point is, there is a way to win at every track, without making high risk maneuvres that result in contact.
That says it best. (highlighted) 👍
 
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