"...what we want you to experience...": The root cause of GT4's biggest deficiency.

[2quick]

Err, at the risk of sounding, um, stupid, what do i have in the UK? We tried and there was no way to select tuned cars from my garage, just standard ones from the manufacturer.

Like yourself i have the UK version and I have no problems selecting tuned cars from my garage in arcade mode.
Like Gabkicks says just select 1 or 2 (depending what slot yr memory card is in) from the manufacturer screen and your garage will download.

 

[Chris Criswell]

"its too easy to drive. if you've ever seem pro drivers doing their thing, they are doing much more corrective steering and throttle controlling. Things are just too easy in gt4 on the limits. Plus u cant do donuts like you should be able to"

It's not a donut simulator either

 

[ZeratulSG]

er.... GTR... LFS... RBR....

This has been discussed to death. I haven't played the others, but GTR is a little more realistic due to the fact that it models more detail than GT4. Track conditions, slightly more granular physics (though they are VERY similar), etc. However, several RL racers on these forums have stated that GT4's physics are very close to the real thing, and have even helped them on the RL track. I'm not gonna argue with that!

 

[nurbnoob]

ppl go on about the physics but have they actually driven any of these cars? I have driven literally hundreds of different cars in my line of work and have to say that I find the simulation very realistic indeed. I also have a copy of RBR and although the rally side of things in this site gets a hiding I find the physics of the Gt4 in the rally side much more realistic and involving than RBR. I have a DFP which with the exception of the pedals I find delightful (squash ball fix helped the pedals but not totally happy) and with 900 degree rotation I find very realistic. BTW I have finished an International Rally for real so have some idea of what I am talking about I hope.

 

[Scaff]

ppl go on about the physics but have they actually driven any of these cars? I have driven literally hundreds of different cars in my line of work and have to say that I find the simulation very realistic indeed. I also have a copy of RBR and although the rally side of things in this site gets a hiding I find the physics of the Gt4 in the rally side much more realistic and involving than RBR. I have a DFP which with the exception of the pedals I find delightful (squash ball fix helped the pedals but not totally happy) and with 900 degree rotation I find very realistic. BTW I have finished an International Rally for real so have some idea of what I am talking about I hope.

I also have driven a large number of the cars that feature in GT4 in real life and would agree with you regarding GT4 (I do prefer RBR), given the limits of the PS2 and the commercial reality of producing a world wide release for it, I think that Kaz and pPD have doen a damn fine job.

This last point is something a number of people on here need to understand better, games companies need to make money to survive; PD only make the GT series, if one release fails it could finish the company. They have to appeal to a wide audience, to shift the units, to allow for further development.

I have used GT3 and GT4 in real world automotive training courses to allow delegates to experience certain handling traits without risk to themselves or pre-launch cars. It works well, the car models may be different (after all even with 700 cars GT4 still does not have every car in it) but how and why understeer (for example) occurs in a FWD car and how to correct it is something I would rather show people on a sim/game before letting them lose in the real thing.

Remember these are not 'drivers' I am teaching, but showroom staff, many of whom believe they have greater talent that they actually have. Letting them stuff it into the armco in the virtual world is far cheaper than having some 21 year old 'driving god' smacked up on too much Top Gear trashing one of the cars I am responsible for.

The physics in GT4 are let down in two area (and common ones for consule games), the tyres are a bit too grippy and the physics model a little basic when it comes to such things as track temp, pressure, etc. The other area is braking, in reality when braking hard from a high speed you have to exercise extreme caution to avoid locking a wheel, in GT4 you need to actively try if you want to lock the wheels (and in the interest of us all I have tried). Some of this is again down to the tyres, but also a dumbing down of the braking physics.

However even with these taken into account, what we have with GT4, for a mainstream game on the PS2, is something that gets very close to a 'driving sim', and closer than anything else on a console except RBR (which lets face it is a niche product if you ever saw one).

 

[NSX-R]

As for the grammar, "how is the physics not good" is not proper grammar unless referring to "physics" as a noun, for instance if you were talking about a physics class or physics book. If it were "how is the physics simulation not good", that would be better, but you still have the "not good" in there. No offence to whoever wrote it as I've seen a lot worse, but it's still not correct.

I refered to the physics engine...sorry, I am too lazy. I hope my laziness didn't cause any misunderstanding...

 

[route_66]

thats it, the game is sooooo faulted that i am taking it back and getting a refund. I will be hand writing a letter to the manager of PD for putting out such shoddy work!
how dare they!

I am also writing to the australian distributor because they allowed this lousy game inthe country in the first place.



(incase you missed it the above is sarcasm... just play the game peeps and enjoy it for what it is, entertainment)

I never meant to suggest I the game isn't good. Just that we'd all buy GT5 even if it's the same as (or even worse than) GT4 but prettier.
And it just explains Kaz's focus - everyone complaining about the racing, well now we know why PD didn't sort it out. It doesn't matter really, the game's still great and, considering the PS2's hardware, PD did a great job.

 

[TheChef]

To be honest im with Kaz! I love the licenses. I just wish some of them were harder (and some were EASIER!!). I can sit for hours trying to better my times to either get gold or just beat my ghost car. Its great how you have one corner (for example) and you have to get round it as quick as possible the first 10 times you try it you can consistantly better your line and the time then it just gets plain hard trying to hit those different braking and turning points to scrape of hundreths of seconds.

And those Missons! now some of those are hard!! they dont seem to be in order but damn fun and nether the less.
I for one would love a GT4.5 which just consists of a thousand license tests.

 

[Gabkicks]

\
It's not a donut simulator either

but it does explose an obvious physics flaw.

 

[Skant]

You guys might be reading a little too much out of some interviews. You know, one of the primary goals of a good interview is to narrow your focus to a particular message/theme that you're trying to get across. If you try to hit on everything at once, nothing in particular will be memorable... there will be no message. A good interview is concise and concentrated on a theme.

There are a lot of racing games on the market. But what makes GT4 different is its realism. Just driving around alone on a normal track is pretty boring in most of the games out there because there is little depth to the simulation of your car. They require other elements... like racing through city traffic. But GT4 has so much depth to its simulation that even doing license tests or just driving around alone is a lot of fun.

So it makes sense for Kaz to concentrate on this as his message. This is something he can point out about his product which is clearly different and better than its competitors.

I don't think that should be read as 'That's all I care about, the rest is rubbish'.

And seriously... I just don't see where you guys are saying that the races are too easy. They're just as hard as you want them to be. You set the difficulty level yourself by choosing your car.

This mechanic works very well for a wide audience because weak players (ie. most players) can buy the best cars and tune them up so they're way faster and win the races that way... without being constantly reminded that they suck (by having to select 'easy' or 'I'm a baby' difficulty setting). And good players can just use slower cars and experience a challenge.

When I play the races in the game, I choose a car that I think I may lose in. When I'm racing, if I hit a wall or another car, I exit the race and let it be recorded as a DNF... since the contact would have taken me out of the race.

I know you guys think the AI is impossible and will always hit you, but I finish races without a single 'scratch' on my car all the time. It's challenging to get around them without any contact... especially when they're driving a faster car than you are, but you know what? That's true in RL, too. As far as I can tell, you guys are demanding AI that gets out of your way when you're driving erratically and yields the racing line. (And at the same time claiming you want to be challenged).

Not saying that GT4 'can do no wrong' or that everything about it is perfect. There's certainly room for improvement in the AI and other features of the game. And there are aspects that other racing games do better. But GT still stands in a class by itself, and I have still never played another game that I can use to practice for RL events. So from my point of view it has no competition. (And I wouldn't mind it having some competition in that regard, because I fear that PD will eventually 'dumb it down' because the vast majority of the world complains that GT is way too hard)

- Skant

 

[sejtur]

If there was good AI it was just real fun, now they just race like a computer, and don't block if you want to intake, and just crash in you when you stand still. They just have to improve that... I mean, the AI from burnout 3 is great. They are fast enough, and don't act like robots!

 

[Kolyana]

I can't believe you just brought "Burnout 3" into the same discussion as GT4 ... it's like comparing Tetris to Chess, or a Twinkie to a slice of Cheesecake smothered in Blueberries.

 

[Scaff]

but it does explose an obvious physics flaw.

Enthusia will let you do donuts, but it will also let you jam on the handbrake of a Nissan R390 while cornering at 180 mph, build a huge slidways slide and then gather it up with little fuss.

No game is perfect, but I would rather have good high speed racing physics than the ability to do donuts. All very good for the victory lap, but not a lot of use in the race itself.

GT4 seems to have the steering assit from the previous versions still in place, I would have liked to see it removed (or at least an option to switch it off). To me thats not a flaw in the physics, but a concesion to the mass market-place.

I do think that its going to have to go with the next version (finger crossed), but as it effects mainly low speed or stationary manouvers its of little issue to me.

 

[Zardoz]

...GT4 seems to have the steering assist from the previous versions still in place...

This is news to me. Could you elaborate a little?

 

[sejtur]

ASM?... Anyone?

 

[Gabkicks]

Enthusia will let you do donuts, but it will also let you jam on the handbrake of a Nissan R390 while cornering at 180 mph, build a huge slidways slide and then gather it up with little fuss.

No game is perfect, but I would rather have good high speed racing physics than the ability to do donuts. All very good for the victory lap, but not a lot of use in the race itself.

GT4 seems to have the steering assit from the previous versions still in place, I would have liked to see it removed (or at least an option to switch it off). To me thats not a flaw in the physics, but a concesion to the mass market-place.

I do think that its going to have to go with the next version (finger crossed), but as it effects mainly low speed or stationary manouvers its of little issue to me.

the cars arent even that realistic at high speeds. Steering is too responsive at higher speeds for most cars. Its not about doing donuts, my beef is with cornering at lower speeds and cars having funky traction. Rear wheel drive cars are supposed to feel much more tail happy than they do in GT4.

 

[Scaff]

This is news to me. Could you elaborate a little?

In GT3 if you took a car such as a Honda S2000 and tried to do donuts, full lock and then with full throttle step off the brakes, the lock seemed to reduce making a clean series of donuts almost impossiable.

When watched in replay you could see that before you release the brakes the front wheels would be at full lock, but as the power is applied the steering lock would reduce, despite the fact that you have appied full lock throughout.

Now I have not actually tested this in GT4, as I said it 'seems' to still be in place.

I have no idea if this is actually, technically refered to as a steering assits, that just how I describe it.

the cars arent even that realistic at high speeds. Steering is too responsive at higher speeds for most cars. Its not about doing donuts, my beef is with cornering at lower speeds and cars having funky traction. Rear wheel drive cars are supposed to feel much more tail happy than they do in GT4.

Sorry but I can agree with regard to the high speed realism, steering is very responsive at high speeds.

I've never had an issue with regards to lower speed cornering, get the entry speed right, constant throttle through the coner and smooth throttle application after the apex.

Traction is in my opinion an issue with regard to the un-realistic grip levels offered by the tyres, which are set to high in my opinion.

I quite agree that the higher power rear wheel drive cars are a little reluctant to step out when you apply the throttle hard on exit, some of this I would again attribute to the tyres grip level. Some people however (and I do not believe you are one) think that all RWD cars should step out of line, and this simply is not true. Try and get a real world BMW 1-series to power oversteer, nearly impossiable even with the most brutal of throttle applications (unless the road is very wet), I should know this one, I've tried.

However, with all the above I still maintain that for the platform and the market demands of a volume game, GT4 offers an excellent level of simulation. Its not perfect, yet; but each game in the series has stepped in the right direction.

I have never claimed otherwise and would never say that GT4 was a true driving sim in every regard, but it is accurate enough to use for training, and as a game its damn good.

 

[Zardoz]

...When watched in replay you could see that before you release the brakes the front wheels would be at full lock, but as the power is applied the steering lock would reduce, despite the fact that you have appied full lock throughout...

Okay, thanks. I'll have to try it and see if the replay shows anything.

 

[Skant]

the cars arent even that realistic at high speeds. Steering is too responsive at higher speeds for most cars.

How do you draw that conclusion?

Its not about doing donuts, my beef is with cornering at lower speeds and cars having funky traction. Rear wheel drive cars are supposed to feel much more tail happy than they do in GT4.

GT4 puts Sports tires on all normal cars by default. Sports tires simulate the traction of DOT legal racing tires in RL. Even the pictures of them in the game look like RL DOT racing tires.

These tires have a lot more grip than even the finest street tires. And that's reflected in the game. They're quite hard to 'break loose'. And if you're looking to make a RWD car power oversteer, it will be considerably harder with these shoes on.

The other thing that happens is that you don't feel the g forces and don't have the full sense of speed since you're sitting in front of your TV. Typically in the game you're going a good bit faster than you think you are. Kicking out the rear on a RWD car is done at very low speeds. At high speeds, they won't do it. Not enough torque multiplication to kick out the tires when you're going fast.

RWD just isn't as 'unstable' as the FWD guys like to talk about.

- Skant

 

[ving]

ASM?... Anyone?

20/f/USA!

Oh sorry i thought you said ASL

 

[Pauleo]

Rear wheel drive cars are supposed to feel much more tail happy than they do in GT4.

I also was disappointed with this until I discovered the driver aids could be turned off.Set all of them to zero and even a mildly tuned RWD Mazda MX5 will get the back out if you put too much throttle on the way out of a corner even on sports tyres.

Then try it on something like a BMW M5 or a Ford GT, you'll soon be switching them on again!

 

[ZeratulSG]

When I play the races in the game, I choose a car that I think I may lose in. When I'm racing, if I hit a wall or another car, I exit the race and let it be recorded as a DNF... since the contact would have taken me out of the race.

I know you guys think the AI is impossible and will always hit you, but I finish races without a single 'scratch' on my car all the time. It's challenging to get around them without any contact... especially when they're driving a faster car than you are, but you know what? That's true in RL, too. As far as I can tell, you guys are demanding AI that gets out of your way when you're driving erratically and yields the racing line. (And at the same time claiming you want to be challenged).

Likewise, I find the greatest challenge these days in trying to drive the cleanest race possible, and that also means overtaking the AI correctly (good overtaking zone, proper approach, etc.) rather than just bullying your way past them (and then getting upset when they do it back to you). In a closely matched or slightly outmatched car, it's incredibly fun! 👍

Oh and here's a question to the person who mentioned steering assists: do you (or anyone else) know what the "Power Assist" option for the DFP does? Is this what you were referring to? I've tried with it on and off and I can't notice much difference, except that I can "feel" the car with them off just a tad more.

 

[JohnBM01]

So this is why most of you (excluding myself) all say that GT4 is easy...

 

[Sprite]

why the blumming heck would you want to do donuts, unless you were selebraiting after a win or you are wearing burburry and sitting in a metro in a Mc Donalds car park, getting in a stock car with all driving aids off and pushing it to its absolute limits and seeing if you can better your time every lap is what GT is about.

Granted that the developers PD have to appeal to a wide audiance and have to put racing in as a means to and ends, this is because if you had all cars at the start most people would not buy it and we wouldnt be sat hear having this chat.

we all aspire to being a race driver and driving more and more exotic cars, but the fact of the matter is that you have to become an acomplished driver before taking to the track in real life, sure GT has its flaws but with time and money permitting and obviously the fans crying out for their next GT fix PD have doen a mighty fine job so what if the reverse lights dont work or you cant honk your horn at people in the stands as they make a "honk your horn" sing at you, these are asthetic things and unless it makes a difference to the handeling of the car its not needed.

lets all hope for a bright future for GT on the PS3 and hope certin things get fixed and other things stay the same, we will all be back here when GT5 is released saying how we wanted this, that and the other, but at the end of the day PD are a good developer and have deliverd us hours and hours of gaming and good gaming at that.

Cheers PD and thanks for the momeories.

[edit] Im not a person who thinks GT is easy, in fact i was screaming at the tv last night blaming every thing but me for my loss, this includes the dogs.

 

[Mezar5]

I have always thought getting gold in the license tests was the most rewarding challenge in GT3 and some of the missions in GT4 were just as fun. I don't have golds in GT4 yet (except S15. I love La Sarthe so I took a brake from the game to go get gold on that one. Anyway, that excerpt from the interview doesn't surprise me and I am glad it was pointed out.

As for the races, I find that the best way to make the races competitve is to run a few laps, exit the race, buy the third place car, and rerun the race using that car untuned. Maybe if I get better I'll start using the fourth, fifth or even sixth place car. For now, third is enough for me.

 

[neilX]

Interesting little article there with Kazunori Yamauchi.

IMO the best part of GT is the licenses. I totally enjoy aiming for the perfect line repeatedly. Even after getting Gold, I continue on trying to do better and I'm not satisfied until I've done it perfectly - and I don't think I've ever been completely satisfied with my performances.

The Missions are an excellent new addition to GT, along the same lines as the licenses; you're given a car, a track and a goal to achieve.

The AI has its problems, but I wouldn't complain about the difficulty - that is what the A-Spec points are for. People would be complaining if the AI was too good, but with A-Spec points, you're able to set yourself a challenge at whatever level you want (but you've got to Start the race to know what points - that is crazy - tell me the points first so I can adjust my car Before starting the race).

 

[Zardoz]

So this is why most of you (excluding myself) all say that GT4 is easy...

I say its too easy because when you enter a race in a car equivalent to those of your AI competitors, it is downright hard to lose. Almost every race in GT4 is winnable with virtually no effort under those conditions. There are just a few exceptions to this.

That's too easy.

 

[Skant]

but you've got to Start the race to know what points - that is crazy - tell me the points first so I can adjust my car Before starting the race

I totally agree with you there. I think GT4 is a blast once you've got a good race going. But where the game really lacks is in the menus... lots of niggly stuff that's annoying. And the annoyance is compounded by unreasonable load times for nearly every menu selection.

How nice it would be if before you entered the race it gave you the list of all your cars to choose from (trimmed down to just the cars that qualify under the race restrictions, of course) with the A spec points each car would earn if it won.

The main weaknesses in the game are all stuff like that. All in the menus, not the actual race itself. Everything that happens when you're actually on the road is very highly developed.

It seems like they have all their big developers working on the simulator itself... and then have some lone intern who has to design and write the whole menu system based on requirements from the VP of marketting.

I find it interesting that the folks on this forum don't complain about the menus much, but do complain bitterly about the stuff that GT4 does very well (like realistic physics and racing simulation).

I say its too easy because when you enter a race in a car equivalent to those of your AI competitors, it is downright hard to lose. Almost every race in GT4 is winnable with virtually no effort under those conditions. There are just a few exceptions to this.

That's too easy.

I have the same problem with my friends. If I choose an equivalent car on the same tires, I beat them with virtually no effort. My friends need to be upgraded, too. PD should fix this in GT5.

- Skant

 

[dolande]

I have the same problem with my friends. If I choose an equivalent car on the same tires, I beat them with virtually no effort. My friends need to be upgraded, too. PD should fix this in GT5.
- Skant

👍 👍

 

[JohnBM01]

I think the races have to be fair. You know, I don't want races in a future GT being as tough as some TOCA Race Driver 2 races. I love TOCA RD2, the only problem is that it can be very tough to recover from a spin. Almost as if you throw away a race. Sure, this happens in real-life racing, but usually not as difficult. Real driving simulator, real racing simulator, I still think GT is a pretty nice challenge.

My biggest complaint is the "too easy" thing. And sure, on most levels, it is too hard to lose. I'm redoing the Supercar Festival in a heavily-tuned 2003 Dodge Viper. The results are showing in big ways. I have to brake VERY early, very hard in small increments, and then keep tapping the accelerator hard, knowing that one wrong turn has me flying into the grass. Oh, and let's not forget about tracks like Citta di Aria and Grand Canyon. This is why I don't buy the "too easy" deal. GameSpot said that GT4 lacked any real evolution from past GT games, namely with AI. Hmmph. Better than Pro Race Driver. Come on now, I'm not the only person who played this freaking game. People made all these complaints, and I phased them out. This game took several delays and many features and tweaks before hitting this dual-layer deal we got here. Anyone who thinks Nurburgring Nordschleife is easy obviously has no life. How much harder does the game have to be in order to satisfy YOUR vision of GT? PD could have made GT4 completely unplayable unless you have acquired an international racing license (real life, not a game), and have competed in F1 events. Nurburgring Nordschleife, GT4's GT World Championship, almost any Extreme Hall event, some of the endurances... maybe since I'm old-fashioned and forgiving, I think this is tough enough for ANY GT fan or GT newcomer. All I cared about was the action on track, and even for longtime GT gamers like myself, I never been pushed as hard as in this game. I thought most GT3 races were pretty easy once you totally maxed out your car.

Regardless, say what you want about too easy. I didn't think GTA San Andreas was easy, so why should I believe GT4 is easy? It's not as easy as pick a car, pick a race, win without even trying. Come on now, people...