What would a good economy look like?

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Rudenut

Rudenut

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I'd like to get a community pulse on what everyone thinks a good economy would look like?

I personally think a per mile rate based on license is a good way to measure it. Since we cannot sell cars I think the events need to be as rewarding as GT6's fastest method but with all the races and events balanced on a per mile by license rate. With GT6's fastest method being the ceiling of difficulty.
 
MrNukki
Pre 1.07/1.08 economy. Grindy, but infinitely less atrocious. Throw in seasonal events and/or daily login bonuses and you're golden.
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Ok, but I really was not in to running the ranch or HSR over and over. I mean, I think all the races should be balanced to have roughly the same payout based on mileage and license level. I do not like running the same race over and over. If PD had patched the game to bring all the other "equivalent" races up to the fastest I would have been much happier. Was still super slow. I mostly did HSR...can't rally, or drift...I am generally bad.
 
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It should scale with the game, low payouts to start with, huge payouts by the time you've finished everything. There should be more of everything, as well.

Events should, as you say, be scaled in payouts by time driven.

There should be 10+ events, 50+ individual end game races that ALL pay roughly the exact same amount per minute. These should be the hardest events, like the old days. Championships, individual events, they should all pay the same, give or take a few thousand to account for people using different cars.

Custom events should also pay the same rate, as should online events. Online events could scale up in terms of your DR, and the level of your competitors. If you're DR A and beat 15 other DR As, it should pay very highly. Still primarily based on time though.

As for the big question of how much, personally I'd be happy with the end game rate being around 2 million per hour. That would still mean that to buy every car, and earn enough credits to modify a large number of them, will still take you about 210 hours.

That seems perfectly reasonable to me, it's not "in five minutes" and in line with the old games. It's half the time it'd take grinding the META event currently, but more importantly, you could earn that rate ANYWHERE.

Again, these are end game events and rates I'm talking about, top level online events, and custom races against the hardest AI once you're at a high level/unlocked everything. I'm not suggesting events at the start of the game pay this much, or that every event does.
 
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Samus
It should scale with the game, low payouts to start with, huge payouts by the time you've finished everything. There should be more of everything, as well.

Events should, as you say, be scaled in payouts by time driven.

There should be 10+ events, 50+ individual end game races that ALL pay roughly the exact same amount per minute. These should be the hardest events, like the old days. Championships, individual events, they should all pay the same, give or take a few thousand to account for people using different cars.

Custom events should also pay the same rate, as should online events. Online events could scale up in terms of your DR, and the level of your competitors. If you're DR A and beat 15 other DR As, it should pay very highly. Still primarily based on time though.

As for the big question of how much, personally I'd be happy with the end game rate being around 2 million per hour. That would still mean that to buy every car, and earn enough credits to modify a large number of them, will still take you about 210 hours.

That seems perfectly reasonable to me, it's not "in five minutes" and in line with the old games. It's half the time it'd take grinding the META event currently, but more importantly, you could earn that rate ANYWHERE.

Again, these are end game events and rates I'm talking about, top level online events, and custom races against the hardest AI once you're at a high level/unlocked everything. I'm not suggesting events at the start of the game pay this much, or that every event does.
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I agree with this. I think 1million per hour given the current top events would be appropriate as well.
 
Rudenut
I agree with this. I think 1million per hour given the current top events would be appropriate as well.
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Well I think the main thing is the rate has to scale to the full cost of everything in the game. At 280M and counting to buy all the cars, 40M+ to modify them, 1M per hour is still going to be a little too slow for me.

Mind you, if there were 50 end-game races that all paid 1M/hr it'd still be VAST improvement on what we have now. So I'd certainly take it.

I'm not going to put hours of thought into it because it's not like PD are going to take notice but off the top of my head, I'd try to have the game scale something like this:

[Menu 1-5 events]
Races pay out at 75,000 per hour @ Hard Difficulty. Less, for Medium/Easy obviously.

[Menu 6-10]
100,000 per hour

[Menu 11-15]
200,000 per hour

[Menu 16-20]
250,000 per hour

[Menu 21-25]
300,000

[Menu 26-30]
500,000

[Menu 31-35]
750,000

[Menu 36-39]
1,000,000

[Post-menu races and championships]
2,000,000. These would all take 15 minutes each race at a minimum, some up to 45 minutes. Plus Endurance races that last hours. Those could even pay even more, just for the dedication of doing X hours in one go, rather than with breaks in between.

As I say, that's a five minute, off the top of my head thing. In reality it'd need a lot more thought and nuance, and you'd also need a lot more events than are available currently to make that work. Ideally you'd also have more menus to scale upwards with, like the 50 we believe there was originally.

I'm not sure how I'd deal with custom races. You couldn't have them paying out 1M per hour from the start, but you also don't want to lock them away until the end game. I guess you'd need some sort of level system so that custom events at the start pay 75,000 per hour like the main events, then scale up along with progress.
 
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  • Scale all the mid/late-game events to roughly the same pay rate as v1.08 Dirt Champions or v1.06 Gr.4 Cup. Maybe a bit higher for the 10 lap events.
  • No daily workouts/bonuses or other dumb player retention crap.
  • Constantly rotating dealerships for used/legendary cars in addition to the online dealership
  • Rotating marketplace for special parts and engines.
  • Couple of seasonal events per week. Nothing too overpowering but don't make it a waste of time either.
  • Honestly at least a single Gr.2 and Gr.1 prize car at some point in the game wouldn't hurt. Give us something for those classes that's easily available.
 
A good economy in a game like Gran Turismo is not just about payouts. There's really a lot more to it than that. But sure, all the small details I'm about to talk about can be considered payouts in the grand scheme of things.

I have an excel sheet with all the cars in the game (I can provide you or anyone else on this forum if they want, it's still incomplete and could have some mistakes but it's a good starting point) and the prices of each one of them shown so far aside from a few I missed. There's still about 100 cars I have left to price and a good chunk of them are going to be on the Legendary Car Dealership, and we know for a fact that this dealership has the cars displaying their prices in relation to what they are valued in real life. So I know that from the cars we still are yet to see, they are going to be expensive, as in... reaaaaaaaally expensive.
But even without those cars, my total tally is already on 184.999.685 credits. Yes, you read that right, 185 million.

Now, we know that about 80-90 of the total car count is going to be given to you via licenses, missions and café menus. However, they are not even worth 1/10 of those 185 million (unless the Chaparral 2J which is a car we still don't know the price yet, is ridiculously expensive, but it's unlikely to be higher than 5 million).
And another thing we know is that from doing every single event in GT7 you end up having about 6-7 million credits (unless you are extremely lucky with roulettes).

So clearly, you have a lot to grind for if you want to get all the cars into your collection.

The current best payout in the game is a race in Blue Moon Bay that gives you north of 1 million (it's slightly more but I'll round it up to make calculations easier). Here's a video showing how it's done:




With this method, which is the fastest way to earn credits in the game, if we assume all the cars that are left for you to collect in the game cost north of 250 million (I'm lowballing it because I know it's going to be considerably more), that's an easy calculation to do:
250 Hours of doing the same race, over and over again. If you choose to do some variety, you are going to take way more time.

And this is not taking into consideration 2 significant things: DLC Cars and Tuning. Assuming you want to upgrade all cars and the average is about 100.000 per car, that's an extra 42.4 million credits and an extra 42.4 hours. So overall, you are looking at about 300 hours to collect all cars.

This is obviously not reasonable. Especially not with only one single race giving the best payout possible. This is both too long and too boring.

The ideal economy, for starters, would be to be able to sell cars. In every main GT game you could do this, and this game is based around economy unlike GT Sport where you literally could win any and all cars via Daily RNG with little effort.
In Gran Turismo 4 you could sell any car (aside from concepts) for 1/5th of their dealership price. Which was very good. However, as it stands, even 1/10th of the car's price would fine. Only having the option to Discard the cars you already experienced and don't want is not the way to go.

And as Seamus posted quite nicely we need variety in how we get out payouts and the END-game payouts should be north of 2-3 million per hour, which is barely reasonable. We will eventually have DLC cars that will cost a fortune, to the already gargantuan fortune you need to attain to buy and upgrade all the cars you currently have.

Online Races also should give you a considerable reward for your efforts as you are essentially playing against real life people who are much harder to race against than any AI the game currently has and PD knows this, in fact, PD knows this so well that they on most races give the pole car about 30 seconds advantage over you starting last and with only about 5-10 laps to overcome that huge gap.

There should also be an incentive to log in to the game to earn the economy, like the Daily Login Bonus we had in Gran Turismo 5 where if you kept loggin in for days in a row you would eventually earn 2x as much from any events.

Another incentive is to challenge yourself to earn more credits. This is one thing that baffles me because this was something that was implemented in GT Sport... And GT Sport isn't even about an economy at all. 🤥
What I mean with this is you using an underpowered car to get a Bonus added to the reward, much like the clean Race Bonus. In this case, instead of it being related to horsepower like it was in GT Sport, it can be related to performance points deficit.

Seriously, there's so many ways to make a good grind in this game, but you just have to wake up to the real world and realize that this is now a business more than a game. Microtransactions are here to stay, so you gotta live with it unfortunately... Because a lot of people will buy them.

EDIT: And the problem with the Invite only cars? This would be a simple matter of you needing to buy for example 3 Ferraris or so to be able to get invited to buy an Enzo or a LaFerrari. It's funny that this is how it works in real life, and Kaz wants to go so into realism, why did he not implement something like this and instead went with a roulette?

The rotating dealership for the special parts would also be a welcome addition. This game should be nothing about RNG unless it's the car you win in a championship like we have it in some of the menus where you select a card out of 3 to receive 1 of the 3 cars you can win.
 
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Custom races being on par with "event" payouts and bring back the PP deficulity bounis. A price per mile payout times difficulty pay. No more of this controlled you must have this car at this PP pay wall because most of the cars that I have need a half mil in upgrades to compete in these canned events.
 
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Grimm6Jack
I have an excel sheet with all the cars in the game (I can provide you or anyone else on this forum if they want, it's still incomplete and could have some mistakes but it's a good starting point) and the prices of each one of them shown so far aside from a few I missed. There's still about 100 cars I have left to price and a good chunk of them are going to be on the Legendary Car Dealership, and we know for a fact that this dealership has the cars displaying their prices in relation to what they are valued in real life. So I know that from the cars we still are yet to see, they are going to be expensive, as in... reaaaaaaaally expensive.
But even without those cars, my total tally is already on 184.999.685 credits. Yes, you read that right, 185 million.
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I'm already a bit ahead of you if that helps. Haven't updated the thread today but with the McLaren the figure in my speadsheet is now 299 million with 61 cars left.

www.gtplanet.net

The credits cost of all 454 cars in Gran Turismo 7 [489 Million total]

Credit to @Famine for the base car list. ---------------------------------- Current Stats (Last Updated December 15th, 2022) All figures are based on the US/Europe credits. Credits in the Japanese version of the game are vastly different. Prices of Used Cars can vary depending on their...
www.gtplanet.net www.gtplanet.net

I'm also working with a spreadsheet, I'll put it out when it's finished.
 
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First let’s take a couple pretenses out of the equation

- Gran Turismo has always been a bit of a grind

- MTX’s aren’t going anywhere


Having said that, 1 million credits an hour is fair

  • $5 a car in real money is fair
  • $6 additional add-on to buy it FULLY modded with ALL options
  • tier system for semi-racing, and sport options mods

As someone who has never bought micro transactions to date, I’d be lying if they don’t appeal to me as my minimum work week is 96 hours. I’m a very time-poor person. Not to mention, I don’t mind showing companies I like a bone. I’m the type of guy that tips the drive-through person no matter what, and I give the mailman an Amazon gift certificate every Christmas. I appreciate the working man and woman
 
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championship 100k per race and 1 mil for the win, it does roughly take 1 hour to complete and you can't quit, otherwise you lose progress
20 min races 275k
custom races that would pay equal to regular ones, instead of peanuts, with every added difficulty as an added bonus to the payment

for starters
 
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MrNukki
Pre 1.07/1.08 economy. Grindy, but infinitely less atrocious. Throw in seasonal events and/or daily login bonuses and you're golden.
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This, but with all of the content that should have been here at launch. Fisherman's wasn't fun by any stretch, but at roughly those rates/hr some gr.2 and gr.1 races could have been great. Having a seasonal event start soon after launch could have been a huge boon for the game as well.
 
Samus
I'm already a bit ahead of you if that helps. Haven't updated the thread today but with the McLaren the figure in my speadsheet is now 299 million with 61 cars left.

www.gtplanet.net

The credits cost of all 454 cars in Gran Turismo 7 [489 Million total]

Credit to @Famine for the base car list. ---------------------------------- Current Stats (Last Updated December 15th, 2022) All figures are based on the US/Europe credits. Credits in the Japanese version of the game are vastly different. Prices of Used Cars can vary depending on their...
www.gtplanet.net www.gtplanet.net

I'm also working with a spreadsheet, I'll put it out when it's finished.
Click to expand...
Yes, I missed a lot of the legendary cars, and I have not tracked any used cars either.

And people all happy that cars got "cheaper" with the Ford Mark IV and the Jaguar XJ3... Yeah, now look at the McLaren F1 at a whooping 18.5 million credits, a car that was 1 million in previous games.

So yeah, this is really based on real life prices, so the overall car cost is actually going to be higher than ever.

Also, if you don't mind, I'm going to "steal" some values of the cars I have missed so far. ;)
 
Rudenut
I'd like to get a community pulse on what everyone thinks a good economy would look like?

I personally think a per mile rate based on license is a good way to measure it. Since we cannot sell cars I think the events need to be as rewarding as GT6's fastest method but with all the races and events balanced on a per mile by license rate. With GT6's fastest method being the ceiling of difficulty.
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  • Let's start with the ability to sell any car you own for credits.
  • The cars prices should be determined by a balance between their performance and rarity; eg. a Mclaren F1 priced similarly to a Huayra for instance (1m?), both more than a F50 (850,000?), which is more than a Diablo (500,000). So you can pick up a less competitive car but invest in the tuning to bring it up to compete against it's class.
  • A class championship (GT3 for instance) should pay maybe half the cost of a class car (850,000), each race win (8 races?) should cost a roughly an 1/8th (100,000) and you should get a prize car which is usually a car which can gateway to a new series.
  • Buy/sell liveries and tuned cars. The game already does this ok; you take your car to the garage search online and pay the dfference of the upgrades.
That's my start. Tbh half of this I've just lifted from GT4 which didn't have any grind really despite what some people will try and tell you.
 
I disagree with the things like daily login bonus, not everyone can play everyday if you are working away from home or just a busy adult.

Given that there are different difficulty levels, it makes sense for earnings to be tied to this. That way it is still possible for people of varied skill to advance in the game, but there is a clear benefit to becoming a better driver.

The idea of Cr. per mile seems fair, but it is also open to abuse through SSRX rubber banding for example, so I believe rewards should be more nuanced e.g. a Spa win is more prestigious than a HSR win, and championships require application of skill on a variety of tracks for the best rewards (definitely with a pause option between races).

I would also up the payouts for completing events full stop, say podium places are worth 100, 85, 75, then taper off rewards so that any top half finish is worth at least 50, an last place 25. This would mean that winning is still beneficial but you don’t need to bring an OP car and aim only for wins to earn reasonably well (this is pertinent given gripes about AI performance and chase the rabbit type events).

As for prices, and the wider economy, selling cars is a must. I would do this by taking into account added mileage and engine/chassis condition with sale value between 90-50% depending on these for used/legendary cars, and between 75-50% for new cars.

Perhaps to streamline the collection of unicorns, a prize for winning a Gr.3/LMP/SuperF/HyperCar championship could be a voucher for 1 legendary car from the Hagerty.
 
Take the current Fisherman's, bump the regular prize up by 50%, so a dirty race pays the same as a clean 1.08 race. Then balance all the other races around this.

It's pathetic to win 70,000 Cr. for a WTC 800 race with fuel and tire wear when the Ferrari race has half the amount of laps and pays way more than half that amount. WTC 800 should be around 120,000 Cr.
 
Being able to sell cars would be about enough for me. I'm not asking for more. But as it stands I spend 100k on upgrades on cars to be able to win a race with a 10k-20k payout, it is beyond ridiculous.
 
To me it feels like the game just stops at National A scaling. Everything that annoys me would be pretty much relieved by having the rest of the game. Though I'm not a fan of the expiring stuff and locking parts behind RNG.
 
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m76
Being able to sell cars would be about enough for me. I'm not asking for more. But as it stands I spend 100k on upgrades on cars to be able to win a race with a 10k-20k payout, it is beyond ridiculous.
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LOL I bought 1 mil car to do 20 min Le man's and got paid 5k, that's pre patch, even if it was 100k I still have to do another 2 hours just to get even
It's just broken
 
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PaMu1337
Excuse me?! That's nearly 14 hours per day, every day. And you call that minimum, implying it can get higher. What kind of capitalist nightmare are you in?
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@Yard_Sale is in the capitalist nightmare called "USA". And believe me, working weeks of >80 hours are quite common here. Somebody has to pay the tax dollars that are avoided by our oligarchs.
 
I am a bit baffled at a lot of these answers tbh.

Why do so many people want the best way to make money be single races? That just asks for a boring grindfest, no matter the car/track combination.

In my opinion the best way to make money should be championships: Increase the championship price money, maybe give it a PP limit or increase the price money the less PP you use, add a sellable car (or maybe make that a reward for first-time clearing so you get an even bigger reward the first time you clear it so there is a good incentive to play through all championships before you really have to grind).

That way you at least run 3-5 different tracks and can just pick and choose whichever 3-5 tracks/class/car is most fun for you.
 
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Personal preference: Larger payouts in sport mode. It tends to take a lot of effort to put in and improve qualifying time and can't do more than two races per hour (in C for example). Winning it in top split gives you measley 20k credits. Now repeat that 30 times to be able to afford a competitive gr3 car for that week, tune it and hope it works out.

Might also be a nice incentive for people to try out sport mode and do best to do well in it. 200k for a clean win would be a great motivation.
 
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I was perfectly fine with the way that it was before. I think 2 races to get a good number of your basic road cars is reasonable. 4-5 races for race cars was also perfectly fine. If you want more, I think it was fine to grind the more expensive cars. I don't think legendary cars should cost more than 5-6 million in that economy. That's 50 races, not a small amount of time. The way that it is now is just anti-player.
 

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