Whats the final word on the physics??

[ImaRobot]

Offended? Look here matey, there is no "problem"; as usual you are butt-hurt about people (by that I mean ME )not agreeing with your opinion.

Pardon? That was for SlipZtrem.

Wait, what? I'm not bothered in any way that you don't share my opinion, and it's obvious from my conversations with those that don't come around constantly posting misinformation, that I'll give them the time of day. I was merely calling out someone's BS, you just happen to spew a lot of it, so I tend to encounter you often.

Err... yeah, I never make sense. No one gets me. And thanks for the advice on private conversations.

*wahh wahhhh*

The irony is strong with your post, though. So if there was nothing you where offended about, and that you had no problem, it was odd that your first instinct would be to act like a child.

Now why can't you be polite to ALL members and respond the way you responded to Demetrius when your opinion differed? Sheesh, it's a forum where people have differences of opinion every day - get over yourself.

Those that deserve respect get it. He posted an insight to why he considers sim steering, and then you jump on and act like you even said anything remotely close to that. You come in posting misleading information, and usually try to make a claim to something that doesn't happen, much like the statement about all cars feeling the same.

How many of these cars or generally fast cars have you pushed to the edge IRL? Based on that, can you say sim steering is more realistic? I'm assuming to truly put this to the test, one would have to be using a wheel.

It's cool you find normal steering more accurate. To me, it feels dull and linear.

I've not driven the fastest cars in the world, but to isolate them as if the problems only arise in those cars is wrong. The same situations happens regardless if you're in the slowest car, or the fastest. The term not realistic comes up, so what else besides real life would it be compared to?

 

[Speedster911]

Wait, what? I'm not bothered in any way that you don't share my opinion, and it's obvious from my conversations with those that don't come around constantly posting misinformation, that I'll give them the time of day. I was merely calling out someone's BS, you just happen to spew a lot of it, so I tend to encounter you often.


The irony is strong with your post, though. So if there was nothing you where offended about, and that you had no problem, it was odd that your first instinct would be to act like a child.


Those that deserve respect get it. He posted an insight to why he considers sim steering, and then you jump on and act like you even said anything remotely close to that. You come in posting misleading information, and usually try to make a claim to something that doesn't happen, much like the statement about all cars feeling the same.



I've not driven the fastest cars in the world, but to isolate them as if the problems only arise in those cars is wrong. The same situations happens regardless if you're in the slowest car, or the fastest. The term not realistic comes up, so what else besides real life would it be compared to?

My my... the irony is strong with this one Luke.

I am not misleading anyone here... you are missing out on the beauty of sim steering, and if you want to make the game easy for yourself, so be it. I'm done with this debate. It is nowhere as important to me as it is to you, Mr. finger-pointer/BS identifier.

What does any of this have to do with your original claim that all the cars feel the same? Stop moving the goalposts.

Feel free to answer those two question for yourself, as well.

On a wheel, perhaps sim steering is more realistic: I'm not sure, as I've had limited experience with the hardware on FM6, and definitely not any post update. But on the controller, Simulation steering simply introduces more difficulty for the sake of it. The limited range of motion on a pad stick versus the 900+ degrees a wheel has means some levels of controller aids are needed to replicate the movements offered by the latter, on the former. No car I've ever driven in the real world responded in remotely the same spiky, overly-sensitive way Sim steering has so far showcased for me.

I'm planning on sitting down to do some comparisons in game this week between the two steering modes, as I really am curious about the supposed changes involved here. To illustrate why I've stuck with Normal: in FM4, @Scaff suggested as much, with literal decades of professional driver training behind him.

If you can explain why linearity is a bad thing in steering, I'm all ears.

I'm glad you brought this up. Look SlipZtrem, mashing the analog stick in either direction will introduce twitchiness and imprecise control. Make intricate corrections and it responds exactly how you'd expect it to.

Normal literally dampens your inputs and acts as a filter to smooth out your movements. Our good buddy @Wolfe said back in the FM4/Horizon days that normal is if you want the steering output to remain stable and steady, and sim is when you want faster more direct steering, but you better be ready to save your life when its time to countersteer. That has remained unchanged since F4 I believe, given minor tweaks and improvements.

Years of playing racing games on a controller and switching from GT to Forza, sim steering took a bit getting used to. But once you do, I can guarantee you'll be recovering from slides every time and hitting apexes faster. As for linearity, it isn't necessarily a bad thing, though it does feel like an on/off switch versus "sim", which (to me at least) feels more dynamic compared to real-life high speed driving.

Interestingly, choosing between sim/normal is not a physics thing, only a steering model.. still, you'll find that normal steering will not bite back for making mistakes on turns with elevation changes or camber, braking too hard, not picking the right lines etc.

I'm curious - did you switch back to normal after just a few hours or gave it time before deciding it isn't working for you?

Great thread on F6 handling BTW: http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postsm445109_FM6-Handling-Concern.aspx#post_445109

Read the first few pages too if you can afford the time.

 

[ImaRobot]

My my... the irony is strong with this one Luke.

I am not misleading anyone here... you are missing out on the beauty of sim steering, and if you want to make the game easy for yourself, so be it. I'm done with this debate. It is nowhere as important to me as it is to you, Mr. finger-pointer/BS identifier.

With normal, he may never want to go to sim, as normal is too easy and basic - all cars feel the same.

Yes, you are.

Either way, it's not that I want to make the game easier for my self. It's just that there is no reason for me to make the game unnecessarily harder for my self on a mode that works on a wheel, but not so well on the pad. If I had a wheel, I would surely begin to get acquainted with it because the amount of rotation that a wheel has is why they gave you the option to use a 1:1 steering mode. The pad simply doesn't have enough "degrees" of rotation, to be able to get the most out of that mode.

 

[Speedster911]

Yes, you are.

Either way, it's not that I want to make the game easier for my self. It's just that there is no reason for me to make the game unnecessarily harder for my self on a mode that works on a wheel, but not so well on the pad. If I had a wheel, I would surely begin to get acquainted with it because the amount of rotation that a wheel has is why they gave you the option to use a 1:1 steering mode. The pad simply doesn't have enough "degrees" of rotation, to be able to get the most out of that mode.

You are not making the game harder on yourself, but you WILL have to work harder to master handling at higher speeds. The pad does not have enough degrees compared to a wheel, sure, but that's not to say you can't mimic wheel behaviour on a pad; you absolutely 100% can by making minute adjustments and holding the stick at fixed angles to steer or countersteer the car. Here's the catch: don't expect overnight results. It has a gradual learning curve to it. Keep in mind these analog stick angles may vary in sheer millimeters, but it gives you a VERY good feel for the car once you visualize the stick as a wheel, if that makes sense.

If it's normal you find realistic, then it's normal you shall stick to. I'm just glad there's a steering model which introduces a more nuanced driving model.

 

[ImaRobot]

You are not making the game harder on yourself, but you WILL have to work harder to master handling at higher speeds. The pad does not have enough degrees compared to a wheel, sure, but that's not to say you can mimic wheel behaviour on a pad by making minute adjustments and holding the stick at fixed angles to steer or countersteer the car. These angles may vary in sheer millimeters, but it gives you a VERY good feel for the car.

It's not making it harder, but it's harder? I'm not sure what the difference is with that statement. It's a more difficult steering method, period. That is my point, there is no need for me to make things unnecessarily harder for me, to use a mode that better fits wheel users, just for the sake of being able to overcome the nuances(that are only introduced because of said mode.). Still, I've never said it's impossible to adjust to the mode, more so that it's just that there's nothing compelling me to even bother with it as it's just entirely unrealistic on the pad. There's nothing to gain, other than a 2% credit boost, for me.

I'm choosing the most realistic options to me, given the peripherals available. If I had a wheel I would use simulation.

 

[Speedster911]

It's not making it harder, but it's harder? I'm not sure what the difference is with that statement. It's a more difficult steering method, period. That is my point, there is no need for me to make things unnecessarily harder for me, to use a mode that better fits wheel users, just for the sake of being able to overcome the nuances. Still, I've never said it's impossible to adjust to the mode, more so that it's just that there's nothing compelling me to even bother with it as it's just entirely unrealistic on the pad. There's nothing to gain, other than a 2% credit boost, for me.

I'm choosing the most realistic options to me, given the peripherals available. If I had a wheel I would use simulation.

Cool.

 

[Wolfe]

The pad does not have enough degrees compared to a wheel, sure, but that's not to say you can't mimic wheel behaviour on a pad; you absolutely 100% can by making minute adjustments and holding the stick at fixed angles to steer or countersteer the car.

In real life, countersteer is guided by self-aligning torque and you have the benefits of a range of input and the most detailed feedback possible. You can't mimic those things, and they're integral for avoiding overcorrection by dialing in too much countersteer, which is very easy to do with simulation steering. Normal steering fills in for self-aligning torque by guiding your countersteer to approximately the same angle; in that respect, it's a forgivably mild "assist".

For correcting oversteer, normal steering enables something that comes naturally in real life to occur naturally in the game.

 

[Nielsen]

Is it even possible to mess up while correcting oversteer on normal steering? I've tried normal steering a few times and it's been my impression that there's basically nothing more to it than pointing the stick in the right direction at approximately the right time. The margin for error appears very large to me.

It's a different story when I'm using simulation steering, even after the recent update has made it easier to control on the pad. Simulation steering forces me to be alert at all times like a real car would. That's where the thrill of a driving simulation comes into effect for me. For me, driving simulator realism is not so much a matter of the extent to which my input device simulates a car's steering wheel. 1:1 rotation within the confines of the pad is not realistic, but input can still mimic realistic car behavior at all times. The latter is everything to me. After all, controller pads were never intended for input-realism like steering wheels are. Forza has only circumvented this by implementing normal steering, but the rewarding finesse allowed by the physics engine is gone.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Is it even possible to mess up while correcting oversteer on normal steering?

After last week's League races in the McLaren to win the Ferrari, I found plenty of times where I overcorrected.

 

[ImaRobot]

Is it even possible to mess up while correcting oversteer on normal steering? I've tried normal steering a few times and it's been my impression that there's basically nothing more to it than pointing the stick in the right direction at approximately the right time. The margin for error appears very large to me.

It is definitely possible, especially so for the ones with less experience. It can even be the case for those that have never raced in the race cars in the game, but decided to jump on one in a whim. I've encountered a boat load of people on the official forums that would express there distaste for the handling model in general, and how they couldn't stop the car from spinning. It can boil down to a handful of things though, so it's hard to pinpoint it solely on the Normal steering mode.

I can see the twitchyness making sense in more race-oriented vehicles, but for every single vehicle on the roster to have that trait is what I find unrealistic. Normal mode is not causing my alertness to dwindle, as I still have to absolutely nail a course to produce a good lap and even though the mode is dampened, a very slight hiccup can pretty much null any progress you where making.

 

[Nielsen]

After last week's League races in the McLaren to win the Ferrari, I found plenty of times where I overcorrected.

It is definitely possible, especially so for the ones with less experience. It can even be the case for those that have never raced in the race cars in the game, but decided to jump on one in a whim. I've encountered a boat load of people on the official forums that would express there distaste for the handling model in general, and how they couldn't stop the car from spinning. It can boil down to a handful of things though, so it's hard to pinpoint it solely on the Normal steering mode.

All right.

I can see the twitchyness making sense in more race-oriented vehicles, but for every single vehicle on the roster to have that trait is what I find unrealistic. Normal mode is not causing my alertness to dwindle, as I still have to absolutely nail a course to produce a good lap and even though the mode is dampened, a very slight hiccup can pretty much null any progress you where making.

Keep in mind that a car's responsiveness affects input sensitivity, and thereby how twitchy an old Volvo feels compared to a modern LMP. I'm convinced that handling differences between car types begin to feel natural as the chosen steering mode becomes second nature. In terms of being alert, there will always be a sense of heightened alertness when attempting a good lap time. However, on simulation steering there's the added dimension of being in complete charge of one's input, so there's arguably more excitement due to the involvement it requires.

 

[Wolfe]

To me, the controller should never be an obstacle itself; it should be as transparent as possible. I always turn all assists off by default in driving/racing sims (and I started off on simulation steering when it was a new feature), but I've no shame in enabling options to mitigate any snags in the controls.

If modulating the brakes is a pain in the ass with how the trigger is mapped, ABS gets turned on (fortunately Forza is pretty good with ABS off). If the game offers a clutch button but it's distractingly awkward to use, I use the auto-clutch feature. If the "expert" steering mapping creates unnecessary trouble (ie. mistakes I wouldn't make with a wheel), I'll skip it.

These inputs are not something to think about explicitly. The crux of being a fast driver lies in putting the car where it needs to be to get that last couple tenths out of any given corner, and to get into a flow, that's what should be at the front of your mind. If simulation steering is a fit for you, you might not have to think about it. But I'm not sure you're really in the right state of mind if your attention is drawn to millimeter corrections on the analog stick.

The wildest cars in Enthusia Professional Racing are fiendishly demanding even though it meddles just as much (or more) with your inputs, so it goes to show that there's more to it than input dampening or a lack thereof.

 

[ImaRobot]

All right.



Keep in mind that a car's responsiveness affects input sensitivity, and thereby how twitchy an old Volvo feels compared to a modern LMP. I'm convinced that handling differences between car types begin to feel natural as the chosen steering mode becomes second nature. In terms of being alert, there will always be a sense of heightened alertness when attempting a good lap time. However, on simulation steering there's the added dimension of being in complete charge of one's input, so there's arguably more excitement due to the involvement it requires.

Oddly enough, I think I had more trouble with lower class cars rather than higher. I feel the lower class cars usually need more correction, which only makes things unnecessarily harder, and that's why I feel it's not realistic. It's not my alertness that's the problem, as I can get around just fine(I actually set one of my faster times in the A class modified Sagaris on the Limerick leaderboard here while under simulation), its just that the pros don't outweigh the cons in this case. Maybe if it would help my lap times, but that was hardly the case.

 

[Nielsen]

These inputs are not something to think about explicitly. The crux of being a fast driver lies in putting the car where it needs to be to get that last couple tenths out of any given corner, and to get into a flow, that's what should be at the front of your mind. If simulation steering is a fit for you, you might not have to think about it. But I'm not sure you're really in the right state of mind if your attention is drawn to millimeter corrections on the analog stick.

Why not aim to make the most comprehensive experience the one that happens to work? Fair enough if there are reasons not to, such as those @ImaRobot pointed out above, but I personally haven't found any yet. I've experienced nothing but correlation between practice and speed. Call it an investment into the physics engine, maximizing fun and adding speed gradually. Normal steering may be the most intuitive out of the box, but it didn't take many corners before I felt dissatisfied by the way things are dampened.

 

[Wolfe]

Why not aim to make the most comprehensive experience the one that happens to work?

Sorry, I don't quite follow what you mean on this one...?

I've experienced nothing but correlation between practice and speed. Call it an investment into the physics engine, maximizing fun and adding speed gradually.

This describes my experience with normal steering. I've never encountered a skill ceiling on normal steering, and I'm one of the top 200 or top 100 drivers on FH1 Rivals boards (my preferred Forza game, and for the record, I don't have an XBone, I'm just contributing to this discussion on Forza's steering modes). I know @SlipZtrEm is up there too. Some of those times cramped my hands; they were hardly a point-and-go affair. One errant flick and the lap may be trashed.

It's worth mentioning that I've developed the skill of using quick taps of the joystick to make small corrections on console racing games for basically 20 years. That's a problem for simulation steering, but almost all console racing games are designed to be played that way, so I'm inclined to stick with it. To turn the last sentence of your post around: simulation steering may be the most thrilling out of the box, but it didn't take many corners before I felt dissatisfied by the way reactions are amplified.

Just to clarify the paragraph you quoted, I acknowledge that it's possible to be perfectly comfortable with simulation steering, and for all I know, I could get comfortable with the post-update simulation steering in FM6.

 

[ImaRobot]

Sorry, I don't quite follow what you mean on this one...?


This describes my experience with normal steering. I've never encountered a skill ceiling on normal steering, and I'm one of the top 200 or top 100 drivers on FH1 Rivals boards (my preferred Forza game, and for the record, I don't have an XBone, I'm just contributing to this discussion on Forza's steering modes). I know @SlipZtrEm is up there too. Some of those times cramped my hands; they were hardly a point-and-go affair. One errant flick and the lap may be trashed.

It's worth mentioning that I've developed the skill of using quick taps of the joystick to make small corrections on console racing games for basically 20 years. That's a problem for simulation steering, but almost all console racing games are designed to be played that way, so I'm inclined to stick with it. To turn the last sentence of your post around: simulation steering may be the most thrilling out of the box, but it didn't take many corners before I felt dissatisfied by the way reactions are amplified.

Just to clarify the paragraph you quoted, I acknowledge that it's possible to be perfectly comfortable with simulation steering, and for all I know, I could get comfortable with the post-update simulation steering in FM6.

This post pretty much fits me like a glove, as well. I also learned to use small taps for driving games, (but that's not to say that's what was causing me problems with simulation) and have learned to be reasonably fast with that method as well. Sure its easier in comparison, but that in no way means all of a sudden you'll be reasonably faster just from removing it, I feel. That is why I go for normal Steering(as well as the realism I feel, as I mentioned.)

 

[Speedster911]

Is it even possible to mess up while correcting oversteer on normal steering? I've tried normal steering a few times and it's been my impression that there's basically nothing more to it than pointing the stick in the right direction at approximately the right time. The margin for error appears very large to me.

It's a different story when I'm using simulation steering, even after the recent update has made it easier to control on the pad. Simulation steering forces me to be alert at all times like a real car would. That's where the thrill of a driving simulation comes into effect for me. For me, driving simulator realism is not so much a matter of the extent to which my input device simulates a car's steering wheel. 1:1 rotation within the confines of the pad is not realistic, but input can still mimic realistic car behavior at all times. The latter is everything to me. After all, controller pads were never intended for input-realism like steering wheels are. Forza has only circumvented this by implementing normal steering, but the rewarding finesse allowed by the physics engine is gone.

All right.



Keep in mind that a car's responsiveness affects input sensitivity, and thereby how twitchy an old Volvo feels compared to a modern LMP. I'm convinced that handling differences between car types begin to feel natural as the chosen steering mode becomes second nature. In terms of being alert, there will always be a sense of heightened alertness when attempting a good lap time. However, on simulation steering there's the added dimension of being in complete charge of one's input, so there's arguably more excitement due to the involvement it requires.

Why not aim to make the most comprehensive experience the one that happens to work? Fair enough if there are reasons not to, such as those @ImaRobot pointed out above, but I personally haven't found any yet. I've experienced nothing but correlation between practice and speed. Call it an investment into the physics engine, maximizing fun and adding speed gradually. Normal steering may be the most intuitive out of the box, but it didn't take many corners before I felt dissatisfied by the way things are dampened.

👍👍 Enjoyed reading that. *tips hat*

As some folks mentioned above, if it's the quick-tapping approach that works better, then one should probably stick to normal.

As for you and moi, sim adds a new dimension of challenge and dept, and once you get used to how the car reacts, you just do not want to go back. I've had a mildly sore thumb now and then due to focusing hard on holding the analog stick at specific angles but it really pays off.

 

[mrPetros]

Sim steering does not alter the physics in any way but it does change your entire approach to cornering in the game. The difference between normal and sim steering is the level of speed sensitive steering applied to your inputs whenever you touch the steering.

Normal steering reduces the the amount you can steer depending on how fast you are going which to me feels more like I am leaning on the assist rather than the tyres through a corner, with sim steering the SSS is still applied but to a much lesser extent with makes cornering a much more thoughtful process with a lot more to consider but with time and practice becomes intuitive and far less inconsistent as others have described.

As for Horizon I feel very little difference between the two modes so I hope FM never gets FH's sim steering.

to be absolutely correct there are significant differences between the two steering modes in horizon2
you can easily test it in the mixed races where you go on-off road. (its not the same difference as in FM though)
horizon2 represents a very big step up from horizon1 in many things driving dynamics related, but its still toned down from the FM engine.
for me H2 strikes a fantastic balance for fun arcade game with realistic-ish behavior (I give it 10/10 for that), but also like you I think that FM should keep more strict. I think t10 also knows that, and you can see that even though they changed some things in f6 towards more ...forgivable, they aren't taking it to H2 level, be it steering or collisions or friction or what have you.


edit: oh, I missed one entire page. generally I agree that sim steering is great and a step up from normal, but its a thing for those that pursue it and not for every one (example: for a "tapper" it can be infuriating )
I agree with 911 in most things about that, but also I understand how his one comment (all cars drive same under normal) can make him look (very) wrong, but he is speaking only in comparison to sim steer.(I guess)

anyway, my advice to those that play forza and want more precise controls is to try and save up to either get a wheel or an elite pad. both are a step up from normal controller in precision controlling, and normal controller as we all know is very good already.

 

[ImaRobot]

👍👍 Enjoyed reading that. *tips hat*

As some folks mentioned above, if it's the quick-tapping approach that works better, then one should probably stick to normal.

As for you and moi, sim adds a new dimension of challenge and dept, and once you get used to how the car reacts, you just do not want to go back. I've had a mildly sore thumb now and then due to focusing hard on holding the analog stick at specific angles but it really pays off.

It's not necessarily that the quick tap is better, or that we can't adjust. Quite the opposite. The method is just preferred just over simulation because of the lack of realism, and unnecessary hurdles to jump over. I have joystick extenders so it makes most control inputs rather easy to get around, so simulation is easy to adapt to.

You're making it seem like we aren't choosing it because we can't do it, when that's not the case.

 

[VXR]

If I wanted the game to simulate me being terrible at driving quickly, then I'd use it. I'm not terrible at driving quickly, however, so whatever it is simulating, is not what I am looking for.

I find driving easy, so I don't understand why some games have to make it harder than it really is.

 

[Nielsen]

Sorry, I don't quite follow what you mean on this one...?

It was in response to how you questioned the mindsets of players whose attention might drawn to the idea of performing minor input corrections on the pad. So I ask, why should players not draw attention to simulation steering, which I would describe as the most comprehensive experience due to its lack of dampening, if that's what people want to master? In my opinion, it's first and foremost about finding out what one considers fun and then develop skill from there. It has previously been suggested that practice for the sake of adaption isn't fun but I disagree, especially when the practice pays off. You almost make it sound like speed is something to prioritize above anything from day one, but maybe I misunderstood your point. I feel I have managed to combine fun and speed by being patient learning simulation steering back when it was somewhat trickier on the pad.

This describes my experience with normal steering. I've never encountered a skill ceiling on normal steering, and I'm one of the top 200 or top 100 drivers on FH1 Rivals boards (my preferred Forza game, and for the record, I don't have an XBone, I'm just contributing to this discussion on Forza's steering modes). I know @SlipZtrEm is up there too. Some of those times cramped my hands; they were hardly a point-and-go affair. One errant flick and the lap may be trashed.

I see what you're saying but I'd still say you have invested in your controller rather than the physics engine. Yes, it's the same engine but you're prioritizing input realism over full control realism.

It's worth mentioning that I've developed the skill of using quick taps of the joystick to make small corrections on console racing games for basically 20 years. That's a problem for simulation steering, but almost all console racing games are designed to be played that way, so I'm inclined to stick with it. To turn the last sentence of your post around: simulation steering may be the most thrilling out of the box, but it didn't take many corners before I felt dissatisfied by the way reactions are amplified.

Ok, great if that's what suits you.

👍👍 Enjoyed reading that. *tips hat*

Cool, that's good to know.

 

[ImaRobot]

In my opinion, it's first and foremost about finding out what one considers fun and then develop skill from there.

I agree, that's why I mentioned first getting acquainted with how the game plays (especially for those fresh off of GT. It was also the first thing I mentioned, as the OP has a concern about oversteer.) After that, dabble away. However, it was at that point when those that prefer simulation jumped on as if it was wrong to suggest that.

It has previously been suggested that practice for the sake of adaption isn't fun but I disagree, especially when the practice pays off. You almost make it sound like speed is something to prioritize above anything from day one, but maybe I misunderstood your point. I feel I have managed to combine fun and speed by being patient learning simulation steering back when it was somewhat trickier on the pad.

At this point, I feel there is no pay off to using simluation, other than a 2% credit boost like I mentioned. I was not any faster with it, and I was not any slower without. I prefer for the most true to life feel I can get, and simulation doesn't do that for me. However, if it was something that would make me faster, then yeah, I might adapt and prioritize speed otherwise, but as it sits, speed is not one of the pros.

I see what you're saying but I'd still say you have invested in your controller rather than the physics engine. Yes, it's the same engine but you're prioritizing input realism over full control realism.

The thing wrong with this statement is that the physics are not involved at all. He is invested in the physics, just as much as you are. What is full control realism? I already have that with normal steering.

 

[Nielsen]

I agree, that's why I mentioned first getting acquainted with how the game plays (especially for those fresh off of GT. It was also the first thing I mentioned, as the OP has a concern about oversteer.) After that, dabble away. However, it was at that point when those that prefer simulation jumped on as if it was wrong to suggest that.

I'm aware of that. I can only speak for myself, but I only questioned your remark suggesting that it usually won't be fun to start off with simulation steering. At first I misread your point, but I still struggled to see how anyone who likes driving games can ever have a bad time with FM6. Maybe because I had fun with simulation steering from day one. All this was also discussed before many realized that simulation steering had been improved in the January update, so I felt it was necessary to enlighten the discussion.

At this point, I feel there is no pay off to using simluation, other than a 2% boost like I mentioned. I was not any faster with it, and I was not any slower without. I prefer for the most true to life feel I can get, and simulation doesn't do that for me. However, if it was something that would make me faster, then yeah, I might adapt and prioritize speed otherwise, but as it sits, speed is not one of the pros.

Exactly, people will eventually reach their potential by sticking to the steering mode that suits their needs.

The thing wrong with this statement is that the physics are not involved at all. He is invested in the physics, just as much as you are. What is full control realism? I already have that with normal steering.

The physics are involved in the sense that normal steering gives more feedback than you input whereas simulation steering gives the exact feedback you input. In other words, simulation steering enables full interaction with the physics engine at all times, which is what I refer to full control realism. Normal steering is dampened interaction with the physics engine, but what you get is more realism in how the controller is used.

 

[Wolfe]

It was in response to how you questioned the mindsets of players whose attention might drawn to the idea of performing minor input corrections on the pad. So I ask, why should players not draw attention to simulation steering, which I would describe as the most comprehensive experience due to its lack of dampening, if that's what people want to master?

...It has previously been suggested that practice for the sake of adaption isn't fun but I disagree, especially when the practice pays off. You almost make it sound like speed is something to prioritize above anything from day one, but maybe I misunderstood your point.

If practicing and mastering simulation steering is fun, that is a justifiable reason to use it and enjoy it. However, to answer your question, "why should players not draw attention to simulation steering," it's because turning a wheel is not something that requires that sort of attention, at least in my experience. Putting that effort into steering may be exciting and rewarding, but it doesn't represent what it's like to drive a car at speed. That's why we call it "unrealistic", even if simulation steering's lack of dampening provides the rawest input possible.

The point isn't that speed is the only thing that matters, it's that experienced drivers don't really think about steering that much. They just do it.

The physics are involved in the sense that normal steering gives more feedback than you input whereas simulation steering gives the exact feedback you input. In other words, simulation steering enables full interaction with the physics engine at all times, which is what I refer to full control realism. Normal steering is dampened interaction with the physics engine, but what you get is more realism in how the controller is used.

I have no need for the raw input of simulation steering. Its only value to me is in specific non-racing circumstances, like testing the physics engine with maneuvers that involve full-lock steering.

Rather than imagining the joystick x-axis as a wheel, as Speedster911 said, with normal steering I imagine it as a lever that instructs my "virtual driver" to turn the wheel. By driving from cockpit view, I can watch how my inputs are translated on the virtual wheel and react accordingly. I'm getting full interaction with the physics engine, but in a different style of play. The dampened rate of steering also does a better job of reflecting my natural driving style in a real car or with a gaming wheel.

 

[ImaRobot]

The physics are involved in the sense that normal steering gives more feedback than you input whereas simulation steering gives the exact feedback you input. In other words, simulation steering enables full interaction with the physics engine at all times, which is what I refer to full control realism. Normal steering is dampened interaction with the physics engine, but what you get is more realism in how the controller is used.

I would have to disagree with this. If the physics where to be changed between the handling models, than I would agree. As it sits though, the only thing it is changing is the input, and the inputs only. It's not dampening my interaction with the physics, but more so how precisely it registers your inputs. Oversteer is still the same, understeer is still the same, and how you correct them will still take a similar approach with one being just more wild than the other. It's not necessarily dampening your interaction with the physics model, but it's just lowering the response speed in a sense.

 

[Nielsen]

I would have to disagree with this. If the physics where to be changed between the handling models, than I would agree. As it sits though, the only thing it is changing is the input, and the inputs only. It's not dampening my interaction with the physics, but more so how precisely it registers your inputs. Oversteer is still the same, understeer is still the same, and how you correct them will still take a similar approach with one being just more wild than the other. It's not necessarily dampening your interaction with the physics model, but it's just lowering the response speed in a sense.

Compared to precise input, I honestly don't see how imprecise input doesn't correspond to dampened interaction with the physics. I can settle with full interaction with the physics as far as dampened input allows.

 

[dopedog]

Since i've started playing again (Jan Patch) the cars drive ALOT more realistically, no longer is it like your on ice, a slide is more progressive and the FWD cars feel great, basically whatever was bust, they fixed IMO.

 

[ImaRobot]

Compared to precise input, I honestly don't see how imprecise input doesn't correspond to dampened interaction with the physics. I can settle with full interaction with the physics as far as dampened input allows.

First problem is that normal steering is not imprecise. Second would be if the physics are being assessed in this situation, then they are part of the equation. They are not part of the equation, or the process in which we come to that. Another would be that there is nothing changing between what is being rendered for the physics for each mode. If you remove the physics and isolate the mode, then what you get is just joystick modulation. One would be dampened and smooth and somewhat heavy, while one while react in a 1:1 scenario giving you what is essential a broader range of motion, and more precise to what the joystick is actually doing. The effect will be the same, with or without the physics.

Think COD's joystick movement, and how precise and exact it is in comparison to a more tactile game like Rainbow Six, where controls feel heavier(or Older Halo's). COD's movement will be what we call simulation, while Rainbow Six would sit on normal.

I somewhat understand what you're saying, that it gives you a different interaction and situations, but I just feel the physics needn't be mentioned to explain the modes.

EDIT: I suppose you are correct in saying there is a dampened interaction with the physics. I think I approached it in the wrong mindset. It just that it seems like you're implying that the physics would be lessened with one, rather than the other. If that is not what you meant than my apologies.

 

[Nielsen]

First problem is that normal steering is not imprecise. Second would be if the physics are being assessed in this situation, then they are part of the equation. They are not part of the equation, or the process in which we come to that. Another would be that there is nothing changing between what is being rendered for the physics for each mode. If you remove the physics and isolate the mode, then what you get is just joystick modulation. One would be dampened and smooth and somewhat heavy, while one while react in a 1:1 scenario giving you what is essential a broader range of motion, and more precise to what the joystick is actually doing. The effect will be the same, with or without the physics.

Think COD's joystick movement, and how precise and exact it is in comparison to a more tactile game like Rainbow Six, where controls feel heavier(or Older Halo's). COD's movement will be what we call simulation, while Rainbow Six would sit on normal.

I somewhat understand what you're saying, that it gives you a different interaction and situations, but I just feel the physics needn't be mentioned to explain the modes.

EDIT: I suppose you are correct in saying there is a dampened interaction with the physics. I think I approached it in the wrong mindset. It just that it seems like you're implying that the physics would be lessened with one, rather than the other. If that is not what you meant than my apologies.

We agree that the physics are the same on both steering modes. It wasn't my intention to imply otherwise. No need to apologize, no harm in clarifying a point. 👍

 

[Ialyrn]

This conversation again? Ok then.

So, for a little context, I am a 30 year old gamer (31 on the 21st). I have been gaming since I was 4 years old, my favorite genre of game is of the motor racing variety (realistic, arcade, fantasy such as F-zero and wipeout and the old fave of "extreme-G" on the N64), and I have played them on every type of input method available (this includes a keyboard only). I also grew up at a seaside here in the UK, and so I have a ton of experience racing with a wheel from playing racing games in the local arcades. And I have owned a fair few different wheels over the years, including a Thrustmaster TX, Logitech G27, and more recently a Logitech G920 wheel. I have a full UK Cat-B manual driving license.

The racing games I currently play are many, including some of the older ones from days gone. Most noticeable ones from the last couple of years however are Forza (horizon and Motorsport), GT, Assetto Corsa, Pcars (few years as I am a WMD insider), I racing, Rfactor 1/2, Race Room (and many other titles from Simbin). There are not very many racing games about that I have not played, from Rally to road circuit, to open world. I love racing games.

With that said, and I am being very serious here. Either T10 are spot on with regards to the "sim steering" setting being realistic......... or every other sim based racing game in the world is categorically wrong! And lets not forget real life, as sim steering in Forza doesn't even feel like that at all with sim steering turned on while using a wheel.

I have not come across any racing game in the last 26 years that feels like Forza does with that one setting changed. The main thing that Sim steering does in Forza is remove the counter steering assistance, but at the same time it has the adverse effect of making things very sensitive within the first few degrees of movement. This is the same when using a 900° wheel or the default x1 control pad. This makes things very cumbersome when trying to apply any counter steer to keep a car going where you want, and will often cause the car to swing around in the opposite direction very easily.

Regardless of that however, I can drive perfectly fine with sim steering. I am not slower or faster with it turned on, but I do have to be more mindful of my steering input. The thing here is, is that to really do well with sim steering turned on, you have to turn with the throttle. As this will counter act the sensitivity at the first few degrees of movement. This is because Sim steering still uses some speed sensitivity, something that doesn't change much between to the input modes. I even ran a few laps today, and with the change T10 made in the January content update, this is still the same. What sim steering does though, is not making the game and the inputs more realistic, it is increasing the difficulty for difficulty's sake.

My driving style on a gamepad has been perfected over many a year, and my preferred method is to push the thumbstick forward and use the rim as a buffer of sorts. I am very smooth with a control pad, to the point that when I was not even using a wheel, I would have everyone say that I had to be using one because my inputs where too smooth to be from the xbox control pad. This is going back to FM1 on the original Xbox. I learnt this trick with the thumbstick back when the dual shock came about on the playstation.

When compared to the likes of Assetto Corsa/Iracing/Rfactor, especially when using a racing wheel. The snappy behavior of sim steering in forza does not exist in them. In terms of handling characteristics between the games, Normal steering in Forza is eerily similar to the way those other games feel. To a point.

Take Assetto Corsa for example. If I drive the F458 in that game, and drive the same car/track combination in Forza. I feel as though I am driving the same car. They handle the same, they react the same to my inputs. If I brake hard and late and turn in aggressively, then the car will happily spin out. Or the GT86, the same thing again. The only thing that lets Forza down in this regard, is the ffb on a wheel, which is worse. With regards to a controller however, and assuming it is set up correctly. Then Assetto Corsa on a gamepad feels a lot like Forza when using normal steering. If they had the same level of graphics, then I would swear I was playing the same game for the most part. Obviously Assetto is better than Forza in the physics department though, but then again it has much more CPU/GPU/Ram headroom to work with, so more things can be simulated more accurately.

It is also a similar story with iRacing, and if I take a race car from both games out back to back, they again feel eerily similar. With iRacing feeling the better of the two.

As I said above however, none of them feel like Forza does with Sim steering in use. The cars don't try to jack knife on you when applying a tiny amount of counter steer. And the same goes for real life. I have lost the back end before in a real car, and applying counter steer did not leave me facing the opposite direction. It allowed me to bring the car back under control safely, and I was able to continue on my way without even stopping. Under the same circumstance in Forza however, it would have left me facing the wrong way under the best case scenario, or in a tire wall at the worst.

This is not to say that I don't sometimes bin it with normal steering however, and it is possible to do the same thing. With regards to the wheel though, the counter steering aid is just not present, regardless of the input setting used. One thing that remains however, is the snappy sensitive feeling within the first few degrees of movement with sim steering turned on.

As for the cars feeling the same with normal steering in use on Forza, this is just plain wrong. You can get cars to feel similar to a point with tuning, as most people tend to tune their cars in a similar fashion to one another. But stock for stock between the two controller input options, each car has its only personality and handling characteristics. As I said above, the main thing to change with sim steering on, is the counter steering aid being removed.

Another thing I have noticed in this thread, is the stating that sim steering gives the wheel 1:1 movement within the game. This is the same between both modes. The only issue with sim steering, as I have mentioned countless times with this very same train of discussion in other threads on here. Is that it feels sensitive around the center. This has also being discussed before.

And oh look, @Saidur_Ali asked Dan Greenawalt directly after the last discussion we all had on this very same subject. My thanks for proving my point on that from before, as now I have good solid proof that 900° is 1:1 with the physics of FM6 when using normal steering.



All in all. The only thing that changes, is the hidden controller aids. Which, to be quite frank, are needed when the thumbstick is only emulating 180° of steering rotation. Yep, thats right, just 90° left and 90° right total on the thumbstick.

Forza isnt the only racing game that has these hidden aids however, even GT does. And most other console racing games. There is an exception to this though with regards to Pcars, which allows you to adjust those things to personal preference.

The thing here is though, is that most people who play racing games on a console (both arcade and sim based), they just want a pick up and play experience. And to a point this is even the same on PC racing sims. It is far better to just be able to plug in the desired controller, start the game, and get right into it without having to worry about controller settings.

@ImaRobot @Nielsen @SlipZtrEm @Speedster911

Sorry for the long post, but after reading the last few pages, I felt that it was needed.

p.s to see the full twitter conversation, you will need to click on it.